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Science: Wonders, causality and the indeterminable

Multivac said:
As I get older it appears that common sense is about as common as rocking horse droppings.
It's not only that. Common sense is a great starting point, and a fantastic way to creat hypotheses to test. However, science is somewhat unique in that it requires both testing of the ideas we come to and the vetting of our ideas by other experts (not necessarily approval of those experts, but ratherr the experts have to agree that we didn't falsify the data, that our conclusions are supported by our data, and that our data are of sufficient quality to be permissable). To bend the ladder analogy to the breaking point, common sense is the wood, and science is the ladder.

For example: to me it is common sense that we need to build nuclear power stations to ensure that energy demands can be met without burning coal, gas and oil. Other people will tell you that I must be mad and common sense says that nuclear power should be banned because of "radiation".
Perfect example of what I'm talking about. Common sense works in both cases: it's obvious that we need something other than coal, oil, and gas, and that nuclear power is the best option. It's equally obvious that there are risks. What science does is figure out what those risks are, whether they're able to mitigate them, and how to mitigate them. Once we started looking at this question systematically and testing various ideas, we discovered that coal produces more radiation than your average Davis-Bessy style power plant (not sure about the Chyrnoble style plants, and the newer ones are better at blocking radiation than Davis-Bessy is).

Common sense presents us with a few ideas worth looking into. Science is how we look into it. Technology is how we implement what we've discovered.
 
It's not only that. Common sense is a great starting point, and a fantastic way to creat hypotheses to test. However, science is somewhat unique in that it requires both testing of the ideas we come to and the vetting of our ideas by other experts (not necessarily approval of those experts, but ratherr the experts have to agree that we didn't falsify the data, that our conclusions are supported by our data, and that our data are of sufficient quality to be permissable). To bend the ladder analogy to the breaking point, common sense is the wood, and science is the ladder.

Perfect example of what I'm talking about. Common sense works in both cases: it's obvious that we need something other than coal, oil, and gas, and that nuclear power is the best option. It's equally obvious that there are risks. What science does is figure out what those risks are, whether they're able to mitigate them, and how to mitigate them. Once we started looking at this question systematically and testing various ideas, we discovered that coal produces more radiation than your average Davis-Bessy style power plant (not sure about the Chyrnoble style plants, and the newer ones are better at blocking radiation than Davis-Bessy is).

Common sense presents us with a few ideas worth looking into. Science is how we look into it. Technology is how we implement what we've discovered.


There are no ideas that are not commensense.
 
Originally Posted by Jonesboy View Post
If certain objects are scientific then they must have certain material properties that make them scientific. What are these properties?

No, science is the method by which we explore these things. A black hole is not a scientific object. We use the scientific method to discover things about the black hole.

ETA: So, what is the application for this idea of yours? What do we do with it?

But if science doesn't tell us 'which things we ought to explore' then how are we to choose among them?
 
I''m about as philosophical as it normally gets around here, for a guy that has synthesized novel compounds. This new kid on the block is a bit too aggressive in his philosophy, even for my pathetically open mind.

He's been dumping gobs of presumptuous, pre-emptive posts, challenging the most innocent aspects of the scientific method. I smell an agenda.

I like me better, frankly. When I raise a point from left field, I don't have an agenda, other than a desire for intelligent dialog.

So, Jonesboy?

What's up with your thang?

Can we talk?

I don't think so. But you can start first if you want. Just to try it out. You have to try it out. And more to the point, look your best as well. That's what I say to myself. That's what my friends say to themselves. Me and all my friends say to ourselves
You always have to look your best.
You always have to look your best.
You always have to look your best.
 
In your analogy science is the ladder. It's the method by which we determine what is blocking the gutter.

No, science hasn't determined an object. Science told us how to get to one - where we wanted to go.
And for "Science" read "crafts".
 
Originally Posted by Jonesboy
Why are you talking about gods? If you are god-happy then the only god I can see here is your's - scientism.

You have an annoying habbit of attempting to poison the well.

Your well was poisoned from the off. If you want to ascribe deism to people, make sure that they, and not you, talked about them. And make sure, doubly for your own sake, that you have none of your own. That might be hard. But give it a go.
 
If, however, we were to take a slightly less pedantic view of language, we might note that exploding stars, black holes, atomic particles and anything else viewed through an instrument are objects evoking wonder in humans that could only be perceived by humans as a result of scientific enquiry. While the objects themselves are not products of science, the wonder evoked by them is. It seems only fair, therefore, that science, as an activity, should take credit for their status as wonders.

Dave

But this is no more a "wonder of science" than the wonder got from climbing up a ladder to have look.
 
It's ideal in both metaphysical and practical sense. Not only can you say any nonsense you want about it, but you can do so with sloppy and imprecise language, and then you can castigate your critics for not getting it.

Or, to quote the master, "It's heaven ever so."

Oh my god. You missed the satire of my post. I was showing that there is no more an indeterminable than a £$%^&*.
And yet you STILL believed in "the indeterminable".
 
If you haven't come across gravity how will you know what the mathematical description is about?

And if you have come across gravity then that is what the mathematical description is about.

Which of these?

Yes, we all experience gravity. Science is what allows us to understand it. It's the method through which we learn about gravity.

Gravity informs your understanding of the mathematics of gravity. Nothing new is added.
 
I think that whoever told you this was severely misinformed.

There are four fundamental forces known to us: Gravity, Electromagnetism, Weak Nuclear Force, and Strong Nuclear Force.

Gravity, I suspect, is what you would call "Newtonion". The other three are "quantum/relativistic". (We do not, yet, have a reliable theory for unifying the two.)

But: Mind/brain is NOT any different from any of the above forces, as neurology shows us. It is NOT, at all, a separate form of causality. The mind is an emergent property of the brain's functions. And, therefore, falls strictly into the realm of known forces.

Form/Non-form has never been shown to be a causality in science. Only philosophers of Plato's era would take it seriously, or those who simply don't know any better, today.

String theory is not, yet, accepted as a reliable "pole" of science's "creation" theories.

Science does not dabble in myths. It generates emprical knowledge.


I suspect this is merely word salad. At the very least, what you wrote there has no bearing on science.

Honestly Wowbagger you are missing a simple picture.
I talked about types of causality, not particular causalities.
Newtonian is reciprocal.
Read the rest.

And concepts these days are only best solutions for the results we are looking for.
 
Okay, now you need to define 'mind'. Are you suggesting Cartesian duality? This is disproved by countless case studies of physical damage to the brain causing distinct and measurable changes to personality (Phineas Gage). If physically damaging the brain can change a person's 'mind', how then is 'mind' not physical?

I don't know if you care to call it a duality, but you will never find a colour, or a sound, or sadness.
 
Originally Posted by Jonesboy View Post
The cuckoo clock analogy doesn't work as its entirely physically causal. The ticking is a physical resistance to moving cogs and springs, and can be measured physically

And how do you support the idea that the brain is not?

I mean, imagine that a tribe of primitive amazonian aborigines were to be given a cuckoo clock and told how to wind it. They don't know the physics behind it, nor understand how those cogs make it keep time. Don't you think they MIGHT come up with some dualist scheme where there's some non-material The Timekeeping entity that's separated from the physical cogs?

In fact, you don't even have to imagine a tribe, you can look at real history. The ancients imagined such dualist schemes to explain why the universe does the things it does. E.g., the divine Logos, translated as "Word" in the KJV, but more properly meaning "reason" was just that. The "mind" of the universe, if you will. That which makes the planets move, and at that in always those orbits. That which makes the Sun rise every morning. That which makes it be cold in winter and warm in summer.

Nowadays we know that it's just physics. There is no Logos moving the matter in the movement of the planets, there is only matter interacting with other matter. (Ok, distorting the space, but let's keep it simple.) There is no Logos making it cold in winter and warm in summer, it's only a matter of how many photons you get per square foot. Etc.

That's not even the only one. Dualistic schemes and sometimes whole layered schemes of non-material entities were once the name of the game. Everyone had one or a few to explain why the world works. But invariably we discovered that they're wrong. There is no logos, there are no Aeons and Archons governing the principles of physics, there is no mind and free will of the atoms, and generally there never is the second half of those dualism schemes. It's always just matter and energy interacting with other matter and energy, in very mundane and predictable ways.

What makes you think YOUR dualism scheme is any better, especially in the face of evidence to the contrary.

But let's return to our hypothetical tribesmen and imagine them applying a more scientific approach. They can't tell why those cogs make the clock keeps time, but they CAN see that if you hold onto one of the weights to stop or slow down the cogs, then the timekeeping stops or goes all wrong too. They could see that if you take a cog out, the timekeeping goes downhill. They can see that if you swap the clock arms around, the clock starts showing the wrong time. They can see that if you move the arms to the wrong time, it will keep showing the wrong time. Etc.

Basically, if they were smart and skeptical, should they not conclude that there is nothing magical or transcending materialism in that Timekeeping? Should they not conclude that there is no separate The Timekeeping entity there, but just cogs moving other cogs, i.e., matter moving matter? Should they not conclude that that Timekeeping is just a name for what those cogs DO?

Well, we're largely at the same point with the brain. We know that neurons excite other neurons. We know what substances act in which synapses. We know what substances or lack thereof make someone's mind do funny stuff. And they shouldn't if the mind was a different entity and wasn't actually a function of those neurons. We can on MRI see which lobes fire up when the mind does this or that. We know what damage to those lobes does to the mind. Etc.

Should we not conclude, just like with cogs and timekeeping, that "The Mind" is nothing more than a name for what those neurons do for a living?

Not only are you advocating mind over matter, but you are supposing that the brain makes us do things.
I think, you need, to examine that.
 
Um, you are wrong string theory is as yet undemonstrated, nothing is patched around it. Strin theory is self consistent and may produce a verifiable prediction, yet once again you are building strawmen.

And as stated before We Don't Know what the BBE came from.

You seem to have a real problem with that

When it comes to the cause or origin of the BBE

We Don't Know

Not form or non-form, it is WE DON'T KNOW

You tHink III got a problem with that?! Hey man, point out the sleeping man.
 
What is your motive here, Jones? You never discuss any of these topics that I've seen, you merely make proclamations and announcements and wait for people to disagree with you so you can then tell them they are wrong.

I should be more informative. I reallly should. And obliging. It always pays to be obliging. And charitible.
Keep a clear head, wear street cred, and lay it down like a rice pudding.
 

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