• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Science: Wonders, causality and the indeterminable

I like his religion trash talk. Can't always agree with it, but he does make it "sound" good. But this is all besides the point of the thread. Now that we've established that the "mind" is just the brain doing work (physical work BTW) how does jonesboy address that.

And as for the beginnings of the Universe for you to claim its origins are non-newtonian you must prove you have insight to the origins of the Universe we don't have, because I think it's fair to say that you don't know that, unless you DO know that and you haven't shared it.
 
Science has four types of causality: Newtonian, mind/brain, quantum/relativistic, and form/non-form. All but the Newtonian causality are employed in two creation myths - mind, and the physical universe.

I tried translate.google.com, but they don't have a setting for Gibberish yet. :(
 
My point was MUCH more powerful than that.
It broke the back of your question. How can I identify a mathematics as being about anything more than what I am familiar with? Yes?

Yes, you're so awesome. Better run off to check your mailbox, because it must have a Nobel Prize in it waiting for you :rolleyes:

Perhaps that explains why you never answered the question: what do you think gravity is?

This ^

Please address this question, Jonesboy.
 
Last edited:
Jonesboy said:
Why are you talking about gods? If you are god-happy then the only god I can see here is your's - scientism.
You have an annoying habbit of attempting to poison the well. Are you SURE you have a degree in philosophy?

You think that it is a lie that only crafts are passed down and not science?
YES. And--and this is the important part--I demonstrated this idea. Either address the evidence, or admit you're wrong please.

There is no Science. No method of science, and no wonders of science. We always had common sense, methodical practice, and insight. Science is western ethno-centric flag waving.
Yes, yes--Westerners are evil by definition. Must we put up with such blatant racism here?

As for there being no science, I'm sure all the scientists would be surprised. I mean, what have we been doing?

As for common sense, that's not even the start of science. How about you learn about the history of science, then get back to us. Here's a hint: try Francis Bacon.

If certain objects are scientific then they must have certain material properties that make them scientific. What are these properties?
Science is a verb, not a noun. There's one of your problems: you assume that there's some physical "science" partical. There's not--no more than there's soem "tradition" particle, some "common sense" particle, or a particle for any other concept. Doesn't mean that they don't exist, any more than the fact that you can't touch gravity means it doesn't exist. Besides, science works with ideas (theories, laws, hypotheses, etc).
 
A computer is written tradition, crafts, and common sense. I don't see any other candidates.

Ascribing "science" to a computer is to ascribe a non-thing, an unknown, a mere gesture, not even a Scotsman.

You seem to be saying more than that a computer is somehow not a product of science, but rather that there is somehow no such thing as science.

That's a very odd idea. For instance, if this isn't science, I don't know what it is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor
From November 17, 1947 to December 23, 1947, John Bardeen and Walter Brattain at AT&T's Bell Labs in the United States, performed experimentations and finally observed that when two gold point contacts were applied to a crystal of germanium, a signal was produced whereby the output power was larger than the input.[7] Solid State Physics Group leader William Shockley saw the potential in this, and over the next few months worked to greatly expand the knowledge of semiconductors
 
I''m about as philosophical as it normally gets around here, for a guy that has synthesized novel compounds. This new kid on the block is a bit too aggressive in his philosophy, even for my pathetically open mind.

He's been dumping gobs of presumptuous, pre-emptive posts, challenging the most innocent aspects of the scientific method. I smell an agenda.

I like me better, frankly. When I raise a point from left field, I don't have an agenda, other than a desire for intelligent dialog.

So, Jonesboy?

What's up with your thang?

Can we talk?
 
Science is a methodology. How then frak can you not understand this?
 
I think I prefer him to you quarky; he's easier to wreck with logic (whether he can recognize that or not). You...are too incorrigible to let that happen, and I mean that in the most endearing way too.
 
It wasn't Science that showed us.
If I use a ladder to find a block in the guttering, then has the ladder showed me what a block in the guttering is?
And what if I climb up? What shows me then?

In your analogy science is the ladder. It's the method by which we determine what is blocking the gutter.
 
If certain objects are scientific then they must have certain material properties that make them scientific. What are these properties?

No, science is the method by which we explore these things. A black hole is not a scientific object. We use the scientific method to discover things about the black hole.

ETA: So, what is the application for this idea of yours? What do we do with it?
 
Last edited:
There is no Science. No method of science, and no wonders of science.

What a bizarre statement. without science we would still be living in caves wondering why it gets dark at night and light in the morning. We would still be worshipping gods to make sure that the sun rises in the morning, to make sure it rains etc.

Without science there would be no computers, or internet, for you to tell people that there is no science.

We always had common sense, methodical practice, and insight.

As I get older it appears that common sense is about as common as rocking horse droppings. Common sense cannot help with ideas such as relativity and quantum mechanics. If common sense was any kind of serious guide to how things behave, or how the universe works, everyone would have the same idea about what common sense is. For example: to me it is common sense that we need to build nuclear power stations to ensure that energy demands can be met without burning coal, gas and oil. Other people will tell you that I must be mad and common sense says that nuclear power should be banned because of "radiation".
 
Science's universe creation myth assumes form and non-form. Science expresses the relationship of form and non-form as the relationship between quantum/relativistic events and emptiness.

Science does not have a creation myth, but there are several theories about how the universe began. The main theories can be broadly categorised as (1) The big bang, (2) cyclic universe and (3) steady state.

These might be good places to start reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_bang

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steady_State_theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_Universe
 
If I remember my history right, QM (just as an example) first began as a solution to the ultraviolet catastrophe.

Did physics at school, many years ago, but don't remember covering ultraviolet catastrophe as we only spent about 30 seconds on QM. Thankyou for giving me something else to read and learn about. :cool:
 
The cuckoo clock analogy doesn't work as its entirely physically causal. The ticking is a physical resistance to moving cogs and springs, and can be measured physically.

And how do you support the idea that the brain is not?

I mean, imagine that a tribe of primitive amazonian aborigines were to be given a cuckoo clock and told how to wind it. They don't know the physics behind it, nor understand how those cogs make it keep time. Don't you think they MIGHT come up with some dualist scheme where there's some non-material The Timekeeping entity that's separated from the physical cogs?

In fact, you don't even have to imagine a tribe, you can look at real history. The ancients imagined such dualist schemes to explain why the universe does the things it does. E.g., the divine Logos, translated as "Word" in the KJV, but more properly meaning "reason" was just that. The "mind" of the universe, if you will. That which makes the planets move, and at that in always those orbits. That which makes the Sun rise every morning. That which makes it be cold in winter and warm in summer.

Nowadays we know that it's just physics. There is no Logos moving the matter in the movement of the planets, there is only matter interacting with other matter. (Ok, distorting the space, but let's keep it simple.) There is no Logos making it cold in winter and warm in summer, it's only a matter of how many photons you get per square foot. Etc.

That's not even the only one. Dualistic schemes and sometimes whole layered schemes of non-material entities were once the name of the game. Everyone had one or a few to explain why the world works. But invariably we discovered that they're wrong. There is no logos, there are no Aeons and Archons governing the principles of physics, there is no mind and free will of the atoms, and generally there never is the second half of those dualism schemes. It's always just matter and energy interacting with other matter and energy, in very mundane and predictable ways.

What makes you think YOUR dualism scheme is any better, especially in the face of evidence to the contrary.

But let's return to our hypothetical tribesmen and imagine them applying a more scientific approach. They can't tell why those cogs make the clock keeps time, but they CAN see that if you hold onto one of the weights to stop or slow down the cogs, then the timekeeping stops or goes all wrong too. They could see that if you take a cog out, the timekeeping goes downhill. They can see that if you swap the clock arms around, the clock starts showing the wrong time. They can see that if you move the arms to the wrong time, it will keep showing the wrong time. Etc.

Basically, if they were smart and skeptical, should they not conclude that there is nothing magical or transcending materialism in that Timekeeping? Should they not conclude that there is no separate The Timekeeping entity there, but just cogs moving other cogs, i.e., matter moving matter? Should they not conclude that that Timekeeping is just a name for what those cogs DO?

Well, we're largely at the same point with the brain. We know that neurons excite other neurons. We know what substances act in which synapses. We know what substances or lack thereof make someone's mind do funny stuff. And they shouldn't if the mind was a different entity and wasn't actually a function of those neurons. We can on MRI see which lobes fire up when the mind does this or that. We know what damage to those lobes does to the mind. Etc.

Should we not conclude, just like with cogs and timekeeping, that "The Mind" is nothing more than a name for what those neurons do for a living?
 
If you haven't come across gravity how will you know what the mathematical description is about?

And if you have come across gravity then that is what the mathematical description is about.

Which of these?

Yes, we all experience gravity. Science is what allows us to understand it. It's the method through which we learn about gravity.
 
What is the appeal of the indeterminate? It can't be established to exist. We can't establish it has an impact on anything. Why study it? Where is the value?
 
Because determining something to be indeterminate (however one does that), for Jonesboy, means science can't answer everything (to the shock and awe of no one)
 
What is the appeal of the indeterminate? It can't be established to exist. We can't establish it has an impact on anything. Why study it? Where is the value?
It's ideal in both metaphysical and practical sense. Not only can you say any nonsense you want about it, but you can do so with sloppy and imprecise language, and then you can castigate your critics for not getting it.

Or, to quote the master, "It's heaven ever so."
 

Back
Top Bottom