Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Grinder]

The Vogt article is interesting for a few reasons.

It's her first article in the PI in well over 2 months. It's dateline is COULSDON, England hmmmm. She refers to the knife as a butcher knife (perhaps it can be called that but really it's clear why she didn't call it a kitchen knife).

Vogt hasn't written for anybody because she's doing a TV special in Italy - any guess the slant if she's in Coulsdon?

She says they got Rudy by fingerprints. I thought it was a palm print.

She says Hellman is a civil judge but then reports that he freed a man convicted of murder.

She tries to make the independent experts' report about paper or plastic instead of totally bad procedures that don't follow protocol.

Vogt is really a bad a reporter.

While a public relations campaign swirls around the case, she is not directing it. More her style, friends say, would be a low-key trip to her favourite neighborhood pizza joint on beautiful Alki beach, with its iconic views of downtown Seattle and the Space Needle.

Picky but I don't think one can see downtown Seattle from any pizza place on Alki not sure anyplace on Alki Beach affords such a view.

 

[Mary_H]

The Vogt article is interesting for a few reasons.

It's her first article in the PI in well over 2 months. It's dateline is COULSDON, England hmmmm. She refers to the knife as a butcher knife (perhaps it can be called that but really it's clear why she didn't call it a kitchen knife).

Vogt hasn't written for anybody because she's doing a TV special in Italy - any guess the slant if she's in Coulsdon?

She says they got Rudy by fingerprints. I thought it was a palm print.

She says Hellman is a civil judge but then reports that he freed a man convicted of murder.

She tries to make the independent experts' report about paper or plastic instead of totally bad procedures that don't follow protocol.

Vogt is really a bad a reporter.

Picky but I don't think one can see downtown Seattle from any pizza place on Alki not sure anyplace on Alki Beach affords such a view.

I believe you are correct.

Here is the link to the article.

P.S. Grinder, did you read Art Shay's Wiki page? I'll bet a certain member of the Intelligentsia is absolutely kicking herself right now.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

The photo taken of Bruce Fisher and me was authentic. I have been a photographer for 30 years, and learned photography from my father, Art Shay, one of America's most famous photojournalists since WWII. As you can see from my thousands of posts on JREF, I am not a newcomer to this forum.

Thank you.

Steve Shay

Thanks Steve. It is really sad that this even had to be discussed but it is honestly about more than the photo. It shows what lengths the pro-guilt side will go to try and discredit someone. They cannot argue facts so they play games like Fuji did. It is okay though, this will all be over soon.

 

[davefoc]

Why would Hellman waste his time if it wasn't. Why have an appeal if you cant review the evidence? ...!

I thought I understood that the Italian court systems were a little different with regard to the issue of reviewing the evidence at appeals court than a US court.

My understanding is that an American appeals court would only review evidence if a procedural error was found to exist. The American appeals court's primary job is to rule on matters of law and it is bound to accept the findings of the lower court with regard to findings of fact.

My understanding of the Italian system is that the appeal court can review whatever evidence it wants to and it can essentially rerun the trial if it decides that is necessary.

The claim that the new DNA testimony could be thrown out because the defense had not requested a review soon enough suggests that my understanding was incorrect.

Perhaps somebody would like to clarify.

As an aside, I think the way this would have gone in an American court is that the original conviction would have just been thrown out at the appeals level and the case would have been retried because of serious procedural errors in the first trial particularly with regards to discovery but also with regards to issue of excluded testimony that came into the criminal trial because of the concurrent civil trial (which wouldn't have happened at all in an American court).

Perhaps somebody would like to comment on the above.

It seems like both the American and Italian system offer different advantages for the defendants. In the American system, the defendant gets a complete do over and they haven't lost any rights to appeal if the appeal successful.

In the Italian system the defendant has a better chance of bringing up matters of evidence at the appeals level and they might be able to convince a higher court that the lower court did not meet the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. And if that is the case they can just walk away because they have been officially found not guilty.

But since I don't seem to be quite right about my understanding of the Italian system maybe my speculation about this is just wrong.

 

[RWVBWL]

Time and theories...

I think that the type of scream Guede describes is more consistent with assault than mere discovery/confrontation. Moreover, Guede himself ascribes the scream to the attack itself - but of course pretends that it was someone else doing the attacking.

I think that the most likely scenario is that Guede and Meredith had a confrontation in the hallway or entrance to the kitchen/lounge, that Meredith ran to her bedroom (maybe to try to grab her phone to call for help), and Guede pursued her into the room. At this point, I think that there would have been no more than raised voices. I think that Guede produced his knife, and threatened Meredith with harm if she didn't shut up and comply (even if he couldn't speak sufficient English, this is not a difficult message to convey through simple gestures and actions).

I think that at this point Meredith probably became compliant, through a mixture of fear and shock. In fact, this would be by far the most logical and rational thing for her to have done if confronted by a much more powerful man with a knife. I think that Guede forced her onto all fours with his knife held to her throat. I think that Guede then started to remove Meredith's jeans with his free hand. I think that at this point Meredith became cognisant of the fact that Guede was about to assault or rape her, and she decided to resist. I think she started struggling, and that Guede made the first, smaller throat wound with the knife in an attempt to force Meredith back into compliance. I think it was the terror induced by this first stab that caused Meredith to emit a loud scream, and I think it was at this point that Guede inflicted the deeper, fatal stab wound.

Incidentally, with regard to what might have happened before the initial confrontation, it's also possible that Meredith came through the front door, walked directly through to her bedroom, dumped her bag and placed the book on the bed in preparation for reading it, then went through to the kitchen to get a drink and a piece of mushroom from the fridge. Having got her snack, she could either have heard or seen Guede directly (the fridge was close to the passageway leading to the large bathroom), or she could have been walking back to her bedroom (this time with more lights on) and glanced through Filomena's door and seen the broken window.
In the final analysis, the confrontation between Guede and Meredith might have been initiated in one of a number of different ways. The single important thing tying everything together is that a confrontation was more-or-less inevitable once Meredith had locked the front door behind her.

Hi LondonJohn, Grinder, AmyStrange, Katy_Did and others,
I hope that you folks had a nice weekend, I've enjoyed reading about the theories that you have discussed, they are important as we try and figure out what really happened the night Meredith was brutally slain. Getting caught up with the current posts, I've gotta point something out with regards to the confrontation, the scream, the murder.

All of this should only take a few minutes,
20 to 30 minutes or longer is simply, IMHO, too long.

Dave who posts as AmyStrange,
I have a question for you, since you and your room mate have discussed this case extensively:
Have you 2 ever tried a reinactment of what you think went down? Especially now with what everone has posted over the weekend? Your whole theory would only take a few minutes, wouldn't it?

Let's start the timer. Meredith tries calling her Mom, she can't get reception. She puts the phone away, she'll call again when she gets home She comes inside her apartment, and locks the door. She drops off her bag, and that borrowed book, in her bedroom, and goes into the kitchen and gets a bite to eat, as per LJ's post above. This only takes what, a minute, 2, or 3? Rudy gets tired of hiding in the bathroom and come's out, or say Meredith suprises him as he tries to sneak out. She runs back into her bedroom, Rudy is blocking her in, harrassing her as his friend Momi said he did when he is high on coke/drunk. The attack begins, and Meredith is stabbed to death.

Once again I ask, how long does this take? A minute, 2, or 3?
I for 1 can not see everything taking 20-30 minutes or longer, that is just too much time, in my humble opinion.

Let me look at what Rudy said, that he was on the toilet for 3 songs on his walkman, Ipod, whatever it ws he was listening to. 3 songs is a long time to be sitting on a toilet. Was he waiting for the coast to be clear so he could make his escape? If so, what was Meredith doing? She did not turn on the heat, take her jacket off, put on her pajamas, pull her laundry outta the washing machine, nor even try to call her Mom back. What was she doing during the time of those 3 songs? Did she come home and use her own toilet while Rudy was sittin' on the other one, tripping out, trying to figure out what to do and how the heck was he gonna get outta the pad wthout gettin' caught as he listened to those 3 songs? I don't know, but that would take up a little time...


You guys and gals ever seen a bar fight start?
Or a street fight that turned into a knifing?

Usually people are f'ed up, drunk or high on something other than/besides THC, angry words are 1st spat about, then fists fly.

Years ago, I remember watchin' a fight start when 2 carloads of Venice boyz, -(surfers and sk8brders all of us), were headin' into Hollywood to party at the clubs. We stopped for hard liquor and beer at a liquor store, some words were spoken with the members of some other carload of night people, they got out of their car, fists flew between some of the Vboyz and them, and then it escalated to the point where a knife was pulled, and a bro nicknamed Block was stabbed. The fight was over fast, the person who did the stabbing and his homies split, fast, as did the group of us too. Block was ok, just a small stab wound to the back. The only point I am making here is that it happened really, really fast, and ended even faster. A couple of minutes, max.

How can I find some more time that Rudy might have used up from the moment Meredith came home to when she was slain?

Let me throw something out there,
though I am sure some of you can do a better job of this than I:
We know that Meredith had her $$$ stolen.
We know that someone went into Laura's bedroom and opened a dresser drawer. Why? Was Rudy looking for $$$ or was he checking out the panty drawer? If Rudy was in Laura's room looking for cash, maybe he took Meredith in there at knifepoint, that takes up a moment of time. Add it in.
What about Amanda's room? Did Rudy look in there? I bet that he did, open a drawer, close a drawer. Add in some more time.
Did he check Filomen'a bedroom? Some theories speculate that Rudy did try and stage the break-in, it looks like he ruffled thru some of her stuff. But what if Rudy was looking for only $$$? Maybe you can add some more time.
What about this overlooked clue, the downstairs? There was cat's blood on the light switches? Someone left it there, surely not the cat. But who, Rudy? Obviously I do not know, does anyone? Nah, but what if Rudy went downstairs to look for $$$ with Meredith at knifepoint, well that would take up some time.

Forgive me for thinking and wondering out loud here on th JREF, for as I drink this cold Coors Light tall-boy after a long weekend, I just wonder about time. For when I read all of the great theories posted above, I realize that it did not take 20 to 30 minutes to stab Meredith right after she got home.

If you don't believe me,
get someone to help you act out your theory...
See ya,
RW

 

[AmyStrange]

Hi LondonJohn, Grinder, AmyStrange, Katy_Did and others,
I hope that you folks had a nice weekend, I've enjoyed reading about the theories that you have discussed, they are important as we try and figure out what really happened the night Meredith was brutally slain. Getting caught up with the current posts, I've gotta point something out with regards to the confrontation, the scream, the murder.

All of this should only take a few minutes,
20 to 30 minutes or longer is simply, IMHO, too long.

Dave who posts as AmyStrange,
I have a question for you, since you and your room mate have discussed this case extensively:
Have you 2 ever tried a reinactment of what you think went down? Especially now with what everone has posted over the weekend? Your whole theory would only take a few minutes, wouldn't it?

Let's start the timer. Meredith tries calling her Mom, she can't get reception. She puts the phone away, she'll call again when she gets home She comes inside her apartment, and locks the door. She drops off her bag, and that borrowed book, in her bedroom, and goes into the kitchen and gets a bite to eat, as per LJ's post above. This only takes what, a minute, 2, or 3? Rudy gets tired of hiding in the bathroom and come's out, or say Meredith suprises him as he tries to sneak out. She runs back into her bedroom, Rudy is blocking her in, harrassing her as his friend Momi said he did when he is high on coke/drunk. The attack begins, and Meredith is stabbed to death.

Once again I ask, how long does this take? A minute, 2, or 3?
I for 1 can not see everything taking 20-30 minutes or longer, that is just too much time, in my humble opinion.

Let me look at what Rudy said, that he was on the toilet for 3 songs on his walkman, Ipod, whatever it ws he was listening to. 3 songs is a long time to be sitting on a toilet. Was he waiting for the coast to be clear so he could make his escape? If so, what was Meredith doing? She did not turn on the heat, take her jacket off, put on her pajamas, pull her laundry outta the washing machine, nor even try to call her Mom back. What was she doing during the time of those 3 songs? Did she come home and use her own toilet while Rudy was sittin' on the other one, tripping out, trying to figure out what to do and how the heck was he gonna get outta the pad wthout gettin' caught as he listened to those 3 songs? I don't know, but that would take up a little time...


You guys and gals ever seen a bar fight start?
Or a street fight that turned into a knifing?

Usually people are f'ed up, drunk or high on something other than/besides THC, angry words are 1st spat about, then fists fly.

Years ago, I remember watchin' a fight start when 2 carloads of Venice boyz, -(surfers and sk8brders all of us), were headin' into Hollywood to party at the clubs. We stopped for hard liquor and beer at a liquor store, some words were spoken with the members of some other carload of night people, they got out of their car, fists flew between some of the Vboyz and them, and then it escalated to the point where a knife was pulled, and a bro nicknamed Block was stabbed. The fight was over fast, the person who did the stabbing and his homies split, fast, as did the group of us too. Block was ok, just a small stab wound to the back. The only point I am making here is that it happened really, really fast, and ended even faster. A couple of minutes, max.

How can I find some more time that Rudy might have used up from the moment Meredith came home to when she was slain?

Let me throw something out there,
though I am sure some of you can do a better job of this than I:
We know that Meredith had her $$$ stolen.
We know that someone went into Laura's bedroom and opened a dresser drawer. Why? Was Rudy looking for $$$ or was he checking out the panty drawer? If Rudy was in Laura's room looking for cash, maybe he took Meredith in there at knifepoint, that takes up a moment of time. Add it in.
What about Amanda's room? Did Rudy look in there? I bet that he did, open a drawer, close a drawer. Add in some more time.
Did he check Filomen'a bedroom? Some theories speculate that Rudy did try and stage the break-in, it looks like he ruffled thru some of her stuff. But what if Rudy was looking for only $$$? Maybe you can add some more time.
What about this overlooked clue, the downstairs? There was cat's blood on the light switches? Someone left it there, surely not the cat. But who, Rudy? Obviously I do not know, does anyone? Nah, but what if Rudy went downstairs to look for $$$ with Meredith at knifepoint, well that would take up some time.

Forgive me for thinking and wondering out loud here on th JREF, for as I drink this cold Coors Light tall-boy after a long weekend, I just wonder about time. For when I read all of the great theories posted above, I realize that it did not take 20 to 30 minutes to stab Meredith right after she got home.

If you don't believe me,
get someone to help you act out your theory...
See ya,
RW

-

Good analysis Randy,

no we never have acted it out, but your analysis makes sense, but I'd put it more at four to five minutes before he begins the confrontation and finally stabs Meredith fatally, although I still think it is possible that she might have fell on the knife wrong as she struggled and they fell together, but that's just my opinion. It might depend on how he was holding the knife. Did he hold the blade against her throat or point. I believe he first held the blade, but as she struggled and he cut her, he moved the knife so he wouldn't cut her anymore and put the point against her throat as a kind of emphasis to stop struggling and that's when they fell and she screamed as they fell.

Once Rudy fatally stabs her. It took her more than seven minutes to die and while this was going on, he pulls her pants off, does his thing, than looks for money and/ or her keys to get out and lock her bedroom door and then cleans off his pants so he can leave without looking weird.

How long would all that take. I don't know. Anywhere from 20 to 30 minutes after he fatally stabs Meredith (this also includes the seven to ten minutes for Meredith to die) which would make it about 9:30 (give or take five minutes either way) and by the time he gets to the bar and actually sees a clock and finds out what time it really is, it would probably be about 9:40 (give or take 5 minutes). I can't see him taking a direct route to the bar, but more of a round-about way via back alleys and such.

Now I have no idea what they do in bars in Italy, but here in the U.S.; every bar I have ever been in or at which I worked, they set the clocks ahead 10 or 15 minutes so the bartender has an extra few minutes to get everyone out after last call, and if they do the same thing in Italy, well then the time would be close to 10 PM.

I used to work as a bartender and many fights do start quickly and escalate just as fast and end just as fast, unless one guy runs and the other guy chases him, which I've also seen,

Dave

 

[bolint]

Hellman is in a tough spot though. A reduced sentence of 12 years wouldn't completely surprise me.

It see it similarly.
The prosecution's case has been weakened but has not disappeared.
I think Hellmann will ignore the knife, the bra clasp evidence and Curatolo.

The question is what he thinks about the rest.

 

[Teddy2007]

It see it similarly.
The prosecution's case has been weakened but has not disappeared.
I think Hellmann will ignore the knife, the bra clasp evidence and Curatolo.

The question is what he thinks about the rest.

The only "evidence" I can think of is staged breakin and that anyway is theoretical. What else is there? I can't think of anything that can't be explained.

I find these considerations being written in various columns that Hellmann may have to make a compromise, due to various political and other pressures, to be totally insulting to the concept of justice. There should be no compromises. Either there is reasonable doubt or there isn't. The only compromise I can envisage is for the Calunnia verdict. So on what basis could we be looking at a reduced sentence?

 

[bolint]

The only "evidence" I can think of is staged breakin and that anyway is theoretical. What else is there? I can't think of anything that can't be explained.

Everything "can be explained" though some explanations are cumbersome.
The problem is that too many things should be "explained".

I find these considerations being written in various columns that Hellmann may have to make a compromise, due to various political and other pressures, to be totally insulting to the concept of justice.

I don't think it, either, that these are serious factors.
If there were pressures then they would be in the opposite direction, anyway.
(See MP Rocco Girlanda's comments)

So on what basis could we be looking at a reduced sentence?

Amanda is involved somehow but the chief murderer is Rudy. So her sentence should be less than his. As for Raffele, he is involved to an even lesser extent.

 

[Teddy2007]

Amanda is involved somehow but the chief murderer is Rudy. So her sentence should be less than his. As for Raffele, he is involved to an even lesser extent.

How can Amanda be involved "somehow"? What did she do? What evidence points to her being involved "somehow"?

 

[bolint]

How can Amanda be involved "somehow"? What did she do? What evidence points to her being involved "somehow"?

Minimally, she was there at the time of the murder.
Her own admission points to it.
I know that "everybody knows that it was a false confession", but I don't buy that "explanation".

 

[Teddy2007]

Minimally, she was there at the time of the murder.
Her own admission points to it.I know that "everybody knows that it was a false confession", but I don't buy that "explanation".

I would argue that her own admission does not point to it. She retracted that "confession" and it was not allowed to be entered as evidence in the trial. I can accept that you don't buy her explanation, but I think Hellmann will not be able to make a case for "her being involved somehow".

 

[GreyFox]

No Confession

She did not confess to anything !! When they couldn't get her to confess they asked her to write how she would IMAGINE her boss could have done this. Sorry but thats not a confession. Not even parts of it. It shows how low the Prosecution was willing to go to make this square peg fit in the round hole.

Guilters are good for saying we must abide by the courts ruling and then ignore what the Supreme Court said when it comes to this coerced statement .

 

[bolint]

I would argue that her own admission does not point to it. She retracted that "confession" and it was not allowed to be entered as evidence in the trial. I can accept that you don't buy her explanation, but I think Hellmann will not be able to make a case for "her being involved somehow".

She did not retract it, unless you call this a retraction:

And I stand by my statements that I made last night about events that could have taken place in my home with Patrik, but I want to make very clear that these events seem more unreal to me that what I said before, that I stayed at Raffaele's house

.

If Hellmann believes that she was there, he will find the arguments for the motivation report, if he does not believe it, he will also find the arguments.

So the question is: What does he believe?

 

[bolint]

She did not confess to anything !! When they couldn't get her to confess they asked her to write how she would IMAGINE her boss could have done this.

That's only Amanda's late version.
Before Matteini, however, she did not say anything like that. Rather, she was exercising her right to silence, listening to Lumumba defending himself for two hours against her "imagined accuses".

Give me a break.

Sorry but thats not a confession. Not even parts of it. It shows how low the Prosecution was willing to go to make this square peg fit in the round hole.

Guilters are good for saying we must abide by the courts ruling and then ignore what the Supreme Court said when it comes to this coerced statement .

The Supreme Court never said that it was a coerced statement.
They even specifically said that this statement can be used against her and against others.

 

[Dan O.]

Let me look at what Rudy said, that he was on the toilet for 3 songs on his walkman, Ipod, whatever it ws he was listening to. 3 songs is a long time to be sitting on a toilet. Was he waiting for the coast to be clear so he could make his escape? If so, what was Meredith doing? She did not turn on the heat, take her jacket off, put on her pajamas, pull her laundry outta the washing machine, nor even try to call her Mom back. What was she doing during the time of those 3 songs? Did she come home and use her own toilet while Rudy was sittin' on the other one, tripping out, trying to figure out what to do and how the heck was he gonna get outta the pad wthout gettin' caught as he listened to those 3 songs? I don't know, but that would take up a little time...

If Rudy is on the toilet when Meredith comes home, it doesn't matter how many songs he listens to because this time can all be before she opens the front door.

How can I find some more time that Rudy might have used up from the moment Meredith came home to when she was slain?

I don't know that it is necessary to find more time. Rudy doesn't have a watch so there is little if any correlation between what time Rudy thinks it is and the real time.

Let me throw something out there,
though I am sure some of you can do a better job of this than I:
We know that Meredith had her $$$ stolen.
We know that someone went into Laura's bedroom and opened a dresser drawer. Why? Was Rudy looking for $$$ or was he checking out the panty drawer? If Rudy was in Laura's room looking for cash, maybe he took Meredith in there at knifepoint, that takes up a moment of time. Add it in.
What about Amanda's room? Did Rudy look in there? I bet that he did, open a drawer, close a drawer. Add in some more time.
Did he check Filomen'a bedroom? Some theories speculate that Rudy did try and stage the break-in, it looks like he ruffled thru some of her stuff. But what if Rudy was looking for only $$$? Maybe you can add some more time.
What about this overlooked clue, the downstairs? There was cat's blood on the light switches? Someone left it there, surely not the cat. But who, Rudy? Obviously I do not know, does anyone? Nah, but what if Rudy went downstairs to look for $$$ with Meredith at knifepoint, well that would take up some time.

There are only a couple of bits of evidence to support your theory. Rudy says that Meredith showed him where Amanda kept her money and Meredith at some time had been in Amanda's room. But Meredith had probably checked out the room before Amanda had moved in and Rudy would try to spin a tale to innocently explain his presence in all the rooms he visited. It's plausible that Rudy could direct Meredith at knife point to search the drawers in the other rooms. But to also search under the beds as there is evedence of strains the concept.

The overriding factor is still the time of death. Meredith was most probably killed very soon after getting home. Meredith walks in, locks the door and takes her books back to her room. Rudy pulls up his paints, and tries to sneak out. Meredith hears a noise and steps out to find Rudy in the hall by the balcony door. She let's out a scream and probably a kick to Rudy's groin. Rudy drops his pants and falls backwards. He defends himself by graving a chair from the living room. Meredith retreats to her room and Rudy rushes after her.

This sets up the violent assault that then happens in Meredith's room. Time aprox. 21:07 to 21:10. I believe Rudy is out of the apartment by 21:30.

If you don't believe me,
get someone to help you act out your theory...
See ya,
RW

Movies or animations would be a great way to present these theories.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Amanda is involved somehow but the chief murderer is Rudy. So her sentence should be less than his. As for Raffele, he is involved to an even lesser extent.

The implication is that you have some kind of theory of the crime which makes sense of the available evidence and has Amanda and Raffaele involved, which is a major breakthrough if it's true.

So what's the narrative?

Because we've been asking guilters for one for months.

 

[Rolfe]

PMF.net have decided that Amanda was high on cocaine when she killed Meredith. However, I thought I read that she had been tested for drugs and there was nothing but a trace of cannabis. Can anyone confirm this?

Rolfe.

 

[bolint]

If Rudy is on the toilet when Meredith comes home, it doesn't matter how many songs he listens to because this time can all be before she opens the front door.

It has at least two weak points, anyway:
- it is nonsense that a burglar goes to the toilet to hear some music,
- Rudy could not prove that he had had an iPod at all.

 

[RoseMontague]

PMF.net have decided that Amanda was high on cocaine when she killed Meredith. However, I thought I read that she had been tested for drugs and there was nothing but a trace of cannabis. Can anyone confirm this?

Rolfe.

There is no confirmation. They just made it up.