Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

Status
Not open for further replies.
Based on this conversation, I think that a romantic interest in Rudy on her part is unlikely.

Look, the possibility that she could have yes to Rudy dropping by or that Rudy thought she had said he could drop by, can't be ruled out by some conversation about fidelity.

I firmly believe the odds that AK and RS would by coincidence use the break-in MO of Rudy is very low. He could have heaved the rock through the window to see if anyone was home before breaking in and shortly thereafter Meredith showed up. He could have just broken in and been waiting. He could have hallucinated that he had a date and worried that Meredith had told someone and he staged it Rudy style.

There is no proof that any of the above scenarios is not possible and therefore must be in the mix.
 
I got slightly carried away over at WS (not just me I hasten to add), and the thread has been deep-storaged for review. One thing I highlighted there was the amount of stuff the prosecution simply asserted without presenting evidence, that they seemed to imagine the court would just accept unquestioningly.

What really caused me to notice was the way Fulcanelli latched on to these points and repeated them as unquestionable fact, on the grounds that they'd been attested to in court under oath. But most of them look like lies to me. I'm not sure I can remember them all, but I'll try.

  • The negative controls, that first didn't exist because Stefanoni would no more document them than she'd document washing her hands, which were then claimed to have been presented to the court with the original evidence bundle but which turned out not to have been, then a set of documents was hurriedly produced which had the wrong date and the wrong serial numbers, then later a better set was produced, "found in the garage".
Does anyone believe this (with the possible exception of Funcanelli)? It elevates "the dog ate my homework" into the realms of subtle deception.
  • The "quarantine" gaps before the knife and bra clasp were analysed.
This assertion seems to be contradicted by the dates and times given earlier for some of the analyses - it would be handy to have some more detail on this.
  • The absence of contamination with Meredith's profile on other samples run before the knife. Would these be from this case or other cases?
Unless these samples were run at the very high sensitivity settings used for the knife, and were samples that didn't have Meredith's DNA on them anyway, such contamination wouldn't be seen even if it was there. No such evidence seems to have been presented to the court, and the implication is that Novelli had evidence not seen by the court. In any case, since the knife results suggest only about one in ten such samples seems to have been so contaminated anyway. How many did Novelli look at?
  • The magic plastic bags that are suitable for storing material for DNA analysis, suddenly dreamed up by Stefanoni to excuse her ruining the bra clasp even though she had previously stated that plastic was unsuitable.
For a start, she didn't say certified in what way. They could have been certified airtight, or 0.4mm gauge, or just about anything irrelevant. Anyway, there are no such US-certified polythene bags suitable for this purpose, because plastic is not suitable, end of. See this link. http://www.dna.gov/audiences/investigators/know/collection "Put evidence into new paper bags or envelopes, not into plastic bags. [...] Never place evidence that may contain DNA in plastic bags because plastic bags will retain damaging moisture." And if these bags were so great, how come the bra clasp rusted exactly as one would predict if using a non-magic poly bag?
  • The statement about it being OK because the bags were placed in the freezer (or fridge).
This is absolute nonsense, putting such bags in the fridge is the worst thing you can possibly do, as it massively increases the condensation problem. See the same link again. "When transporting and storing evidence that may contain DNA, it is important to keep the evidence dry and at room temperature."
The impression I get is that these witnesses, particularly Stefanoni, are quite prepared to say anything that comes into their head, even on oath. And that includes bare-faced lying. Fabricated negative controls, magic poly bags, non-existent six-day gaps, anything.

There ought to be an inquiry into this, but I don't expect that will happen.

Rolfe.


As far as I can tell, the prosecution seems to be using the following argument in relation to the DNA evidence storage: "We used bags from America, so that means it must all be state-of-the-art and totally kosher!" Nobody seems to have properly realised that no airtight plastic bag is suitable for the storage of swabbed DNA evidence (or metallic evidence for that matter), whether that bag is made in a shed in Kurgistan or a NASA manufacturing facility.

(By the way, I notice that Fulcanelli has been placed "on time out" on the Websleuths forum......)
 
the four flatmates

I'm sure she was a very nice girl, everyone seems to agree on that, and I suspect she was a lot better company than Amanda, and de mortuis nil nisi bonum and all that, but the hagiography that's going on is a bit over the top. Ordinary, average nice girls get murdered too, sometimes.

Rolfe.
Rolfe,

All four flatmates drank lightly, smoked marijuana, and (at one time or another) had boyfriends. Filomena acknowledged her use of marijuana in court ("I have sinned"....whatever). I agree that Mignini's closing remarks (where the little saint thing comes from, IIRC) are nonsensical fabrication. And as Amanda remarked to Raffaele, if she had not stayed with him that night, she might be dead.
 
As far as I can tell, the prosecution seems to be using the following argument in relation to the DNA evidence storage: "We used bags from America, so that means it must all be state-of-the-art and totally kosher!" Nobody seems to have properly realised that no airtight plastic bag is suitable for the storage of swabbed DNA evidence (or metallic evidence for that matter), whether that bag is made in a shed in Kurgistan or a NASA manufacturing facility.


My impression also. It's just ridiculous. Certified for what? I'm always cautious in countering such claims, because new products are always coming on the market, but that one made no sense and I have not been able to find any manufacturer offering any such product for sale. In addition, the current US guidelines for sample collection still state clearly paper not plastic, and room temperature. And if these bags were suitable, how come the evidence degraded exactly as it would have done in any old poly bag?

Telling, the way the guilters immediately announced that was C&V's goose cooked, because the great Stefanoni had testified that she used specially-manufactured plastic bags, that's fine then. She didn't even say that, she just tried to imply it. Oh, and the defence had the chance to cross-examine her on that. Did they? I'm not sure. But even if they did, did they have the expertise or the immediate grasp of what was going on to ask her to produce the manufacturer's specifications? I doubt it. Telling completely off-the-wall lies can often fatally wrong-foot the opposition.

(By the way, I notice that Fulcanelli has been placed "on time out" on the Websleuths forum......)


Ah. I was going to check up on that....

I wondered if I was going to get dinged there for publicly criticising Stefanoni - I think I stated categorically that she had lied on oath, and that it was something she was in the habit of doing. I seem to be OK, but I'll have to be careful. I'm so used to criticism of non-members being allowed here.

And I'm damn sure Stefanoni was making it up as she went along, and that it wasn't the first time. I think she was physically shocked when her lies were challenged - she was used to being able to claim anything she liked.

Rolfe.
 
Last edited:


Un-be-lieve-able. ObsidianOak made some very salient points without being offensive or combative, and promptly got banned. That forum can have no claim whatsoever to being anything other than a self-reinforcing groupthink hothouse, where any poster who doesn't completely toe the party line is immediately eradicated, and where it appears to be a competitive sport to cyberstalk, real-life stalk, and/or mock anyone who's not part of the cult.

Stilicho is repeatedly dodging the question of why he courted your opinion and your expertise - until you actually looked at the science and realised that he was totally wrong in his opinions on ToD and the JREF arguments were correct. And it appears from your other posts that he's woven blatant lies and distortions into his attempts to obfuscate and misdirect on this issue. And the ignorant or over-invested individuals there who still cling to the "earwitness" testimony of Capezzali and Antonella as "proof" of an 11.30 ToD seemingly refuse to accept the probability that these two "earwitnesses" came forward in far from straightforward circumstances, and that they are either genuinely confused or straight-out lying.
 
Thanks LJ
Perhaps you can help with another question. Do you know if any investigation was ever launched in regards to Patrick's interrogation? He was definitely a suspect, as he was arrested. No lawer was allowed to represent him. That alone warrants some sort of investigation.Also no recording of the interrogation. Go figure.


Good point. I suspect that some of this might come out in Lumumba's ECHR legal action against the Perugia police. I hope it does. I think that certain members of Perugia's "crack" flying squad deserve to face the full force of the law themselves.
 
All four flatmates drank lightly, smoked marijuana, and (at one time or another) had boyfriends. Filomena acknowledged her use of marijuana in court ("I have sinned"....whatever). I agree that Mignini's closing remarks (where the little saint thing comes from, IIRC) are nonsensical fabrication. And as Amanda remarked to Raffaele, if she had not stayed with him that night, she might be dead.


They were a similar group of young women, to some degree. It could have been any of them. It's just chance we're here discussing how Amanda has been railroaded for Meredith's murder. We could just as easily be discussing how Meredith was railroaded for Amanda's murder.

Rolfe.
 
Un-be-lieve-able. ObsidianOak made some very salient points without being offensive or combative, and promptly got banned. That forum can have no claim whatsoever to being anything other than a self-reinforcing groupthink hothouse, where any poster who doesn't completely toe the party line is immediately eradicated, and where it appears to be a competitive sport to cyberstalk, real-life stalk, and/or mock anyone who's not part of the cult.

Stilicho is repeatedly dodging the question of why he courted your opinion and your expertise - until you actually looked at the science and realised that he was totally wrong in his opinions on ToD and the JREF arguments were correct. And it appears from your other posts that he's woven blatant lies and distortions into his attempts to obfuscate and misdirect on this issue. And the ignorant or over-invested individuals there who still cling to the "earwitness" testimony of Capezzali and Antonella as "proof" of an 11.30 ToD seemingly refuse to accept the probability that these two "earwitnesses" came forward in far from straightforward circumstances, and that they are either genuinely confused or straight-out lying.


I see it's now Anita and Tufty. Basaltic Bonsai. Melloxes. A couple of innocent typos are paraded as proof of uncaring ignorance. Then....

It has always been perfectly clear to me that the posters at JLOL don't give a damn about Anita and Tufty.

The way they go after qualified individuals by using schoolyard insults is very revealing.

Amanda deserves a much higher quality of support than what she's gotten. People who actually care might help.


:dl:

Rolfe.
 
Yes, I can see that. But I don't think anyone was necessarily proposing a romantic interest on her part. He might have fancied his chances, and proposed what seemed like a platonic meeting - then chanced his luck, and matters escalated.

Did I see someone say that Meredith had been done for drunk and disorderly in England? It's not armed robbery, but it's not exactly the norm either. And she was sexually active with the Italian boy, whom she had recently met. Nothing desperately wrong with any of that, but it doesn't fit with the idea that Meredith was always behaving like a saint (which supposedly riled up Amanda), or the suggestion that she wasn't used to drink and her indulgences on Hallowe'en night were something she was unused to.

I'm sure she was a very nice girl, everyone seems to agree on that, and I suspect she was a lot better company than Amanda, and de mortuis nil nisi bonum and all that, but the hagiography that's going on is a bit over the top. Ordinary, average nice girls get murdered too, sometimes.

Rolfe.
-

Rudy might have made an appointment (with Meredith) to get some pot from the guy downstairs who grew it, but was off somewhere else that night. I have always maintained that Rudy (who has been described as someone who sold drugs now and again) knew the guys downstairs because of their gardening interest.

It certainly is a more plausible theory than a date, but that's just my opinion,

Dave
 
My impression also. It's just ridiculous. Certified for what? I'm always cautious in countering such claims, because new products are always coming on the market, but that one made no sense and I have not been able to find any manufacturer offering any such product for sale. In addition, the current US guidelines for sample collection still state clearly paper not plastic, and room temperature.

Telling, the way the guilters immediately announced that was C&V's goose cooked, because the great Stefanoni had testified that she used specially-manufactured plastic bags, that's fine then. She didn't even say that, she just tried to imply it. Oh, and the defence had the chance to cross-examine her on that. Did they? I'm not sure. But even if they did, did they have the expertise or the immediate grasp of what was going on to ask her to produce the manufacturer's specifications? I doubt it. Telling completely off-the-wall lies can often fatally wrong-foot the opposition.


I think that Hellmann may well have completely figured out Comodi's attempted sleight-of-hand tricks. I think he's realised that Comodi has developed a technique of throwing out details that look authoritative at face value but which turn out to have no substance (or even, sometimes, no veracity). So a blithe "Oh the clasp DNA control charts were already entered into court at the time of the Matteini hearings" from Comodi is met by Hellmann with "Well, if that's true, let's locate them now then", followed after an exhaustive search by "There's no record of these charts ever being entered into Matteini's court". I suspect that Hellmann would adopt the same approach to the whole "bags from America" nonsense from Comodi/Stefanoni: "Prove it".



Ah. I was going to check up on that....

I wondered if I was going to get dinged there for publicly criticising Stefanoni - I think I stated categorically that she had lied on oath, and that it was something she was in the habit of doing. I seem to be OK, but I'll have to be careful. I'm so used to criticism of non-members being allowed here.

And I'm damn sure Stefanoni was making it up as she went along, and that it wasn't the first time. I think she was physically chocked when her lies were challenged - she was used to being able to claim anything she liked.

Rolfe.


I don't think anyone ever got dinged for saying things like that against protagonists in the case itself. In addition, I think Ms Stefanoni has a lot more to be concerned about than being accused of mendacity on an internet crime forum. I suspect that she may well face official inquiries related to her work on this case and her testimony in court. Maybe she might have some free time soon to go back to university and do some masters-level or even PhD-level academic study :)
 
I still have a bad feeling the court may convict them again. Where is all of the confidence in Hellman coming from?

It just seems like a bad nightmare that will never end.
 
-

Rudy might have made an appointment (with Meredith) to get some pot from the guy downstairs who grew it, but was off somewhere else that night. I have always maintained that Rudy (who has been described as someone who sold drugs now and again) knew the guys downstairs because of their gardening interest.

It certainly is a more plausible theory than a date, but that's just my opinion,

Dave


I would totally agree that this is a plausible theory, and so is a theory that might have Guede knocking on the upstairs door and asking Meredith a) if the boys downstairs were around, then b) if they weren't around, if he could quickly use the toilet. And either of these theories would still leave the possibility of Guede himself staging a break-in after the murder - in an attempt to throw attention away from anyone whom Meredith might have felt comfortable letting into the cottage at that time of night when she was alone (i.e. a male who was known to Meredith).

But while it's important to examine these alternatives, I still believe that by far the strongest likelihood is that the break-in really happened, and that the person who broke in was Guede. I think he broke in at around 8.40 or so (having earlier cased the cottage, gone away and returned at around 8.30). I think that the evidence on the window, the windowsill and inside Filomena's room actually lends weight to a real break-in: the position and condition of the rock; the marks on the shutter; the glass distribution inside the room*; the large pieces of glass on the sill; the deliberate (and necessary) removal of additional glass in the frame in order for the intruder to reach the latch; the presence of a short black curly hair (which again was seemingly either lost or overlooked by the "crack" forensics team) on the window frame.

I think Guede broke in, entered the cottage, went to get some juice from the fridge, and went to the toilet before starting his search in earnest. I think that Meredith returned home while he was sitting on the toilet. I think that Guede most likely tried to creep out of the house, hoping not to be caught, but was trapped by the locked front door. I think that a confrontation with Meredith ensued, and that the rest of the horrible crime played out from there.

* Even though Filomena's subsequent "recollection" was that there was glass on top of the clothing, I think that Filomena's memory was coloured by her having convinced herself of Knox's/Sollecito's guilt, and that Filomena and the postal police rummaged through the clothing in any case. Furthermore, there is absolutely zero photographic/video evidence to this effect, and in fact the photos of Filomena's room show glass dispersal within the room that is entirely consistent with someone breaking the window from outside and trialing some glass into the room as he enters fully.
 
You could go to WS and say some of that. There's a newly-registered guilter there musing how she really can't accept this as evidence of a real break-in.

Rolfe.
 
Look, the possibility that she could have yes to Rudy dropping by or that Rudy thought she had said he could drop by, can't be ruled out by some conversation about fidelity.

I firmly believe the odds that AK and RS would by coincidence use the break-in MO of Rudy is very low. He could have heaved the rock through the window to see if anyone was home before breaking in and shortly thereafter Meredith showed up. He could have just broken in and been waiting. He could have hallucinated that he had a date and worried that Meredith had told someone and he staged it Rudy style.

There is no proof that any of the above scenarios is not possible and therefore must be in the mix.


You are asking for proof against a wild unsupported hypothesis!?.

The proof is in that you cannot complete the scenario and account for all the known evidence. Try it and then present a complete theory. A key point to remember is that the timeline is constrained. We have the time Meredith crosses the street and enters the cottage and we have the time that Meredith's cell phones have been removed from the cottage. In between these you have to stage the break-in, leave a dump in the toilet, create the bloody bare footprint on the mat in the other bath and lets not forget murdering Meredith. All of this has to be done in a order that leaves the evidence we know exists and doesn't create evidence we know doesn't exist.

We have done this for a "Lone Wolf entering through Filomena's window" theory. If you want your alternative theory to be considered on the same level, you need to bring it up to that level.


ETA: timeline for murder

  • 20:45 Meredith leaves residence of Robyn Butterworth at Via Bontempi, 22 and walks with Sophie Purton.
    Time approximate, based on Sophie's statement that she arrived home in Via del Lupo at 20:55.
  • 20:55 Sophie Purton arrives home in Via del Lupo.
    Source Micheli Report. "On 17 November, P[urton] made a new prosecuting magistrate deposition...correcting the time that she was back in Via del Lupo, recalling that it was still 20:55".
  • 20:56 Phone call from Meredith's phone to mother, cut off almost immediately.
    "In evidence on Friday, Stefano Sisani, of the Perugia flying squad, revealed that a call to Kercher’s mother, Arline, in Coulsdon, Surrey, was made from her mobile at 8.56pm on the night of November 1. She used the phone daily to call her mother, who was ill. The call was cut off before she got through" (Times Online, March 22, 2009)
    Theory that call was cut off by attack is unlikely, as Meredith would still be near Sophie's flat at this time. More likely explanation is that call was dropped because of poor signal in tight medieval streets.
    Logged in phone memory (Massei Report pg 350)
  • 21:04 Sighting of figure thought to be Meredith on the car park CCTV camera, CCTV time adjusted forward 12 minutes per the defense's theory.
    The figure is walking from left to right on the same side of the street as the cottage. CCTV time stamp was said to be 20:43 in early news reports (when the figure was thought to be Amanda); later reports of 20:41 are possibly a confusion with Guede's sighting at 19:41. Fits with Sophie's arrival home at
  • 20:55, and the interrupted call at 20:56. (Telegraph 2007-11-12, Daily Mail 2009-03-14)
  • 21:05 Kercher arrives at cottage
    Time approximate, based on walk since leaving Sophie. Also matches up with female figure seen walking towards cottage gate on car park video at
  • 20:43. Prosecution claims clock is 10 minutes fast, see 13:34 on Nov. 2 for why it's probably 12 minutes slow. Video available on web is cropped and doesn't show camera timestamps. A still from te video has been discovered showing the timestamp of 20:51:36.17
  • 21:10 Last human interaction with RS's computer during this night.
    Testimony of police expert Marco Trotta at trial
  • 21:10:32 last access to the file Amelie.avi (Massei Report pg 325)
  • 21:20-21:30 time of Meredith's scream as recounted in Rudy's Skype call
  • 21:26 Last opening of file "Naruto ep 101.avi" recorded in spotlight metadata on Raffaele's computer. (from Raffaele's appeal)
    runtime is 20 minutes watch on hulu
    the last access time recorded in the filesystem is on Nov. 6th after Raffaele is in police custody.
  • 21:58 Attempt to call voice mail (from phone memory)
    Massei Report pg 350
  • 22:00 Kercher's phone attempts to call Abbey Bank.
    Source Micheli Report. Call fails because 44 prefix for UK not used.
  • 22:00 (aprox) Hoax bomb threat call to Elisabetta (villa where phones were recovered)
    (Massei Report pg 13)
  • 22:13:19 Kercher's mobile phone had received a picture message.
    Source Micheli Report. Connected via cell area of Ponte Rio - Montelaguardia.
    the phone connected to the 30064 Strada Vicinale Ponte Rio Monte La Guardia cell (Massei 337)
    (Massei Report pg 348) GPRS (internet) lasting 9 seconds to the IP address 10.205.46.41
 
Last edited:
On PMF they're in a hizzy because apparently someone here might have mentioned that Rudy and Meredith had some sort of romantic relationship. Personally, I as well find the insinuation ridiculous as there is no evidence for it.<snip>

Will guilters repudiate Garafano for this? No of course not. Because he thinks Amanda and Raffaele are guilty.

Nor have they ever repudiated the closing remarks in court of Rudy's lawyer, Nicodemo Gentile:

"Some claim that Meredith would never approach a guy like Rudy, but the facts speak for Meredith as one of many foreign girls who make the experience of studying abroad and love to have fun."

"Meredith as many other young people liked to drink, like partying, she also smoked some [marijuana], and she herself published some pictures on the internet. In one evening she embraced about forty people. I do not understand why she would not had a brief affair with Rudy."


It's okay when some people say it.
 
I still have a bad feeling the court may convict them again. Where is all of the confidence in Hellman coming from?

It just seems like a bad nightmare that will never end.


I am very highly confident (to the point of near-certainty) that Hellmann's court will acquit Knox and Sollecito. I think my confidence is justifiable by examining Hellmann's actions and rulings to date in the appeal trial, coupled with an objective understanding that there is virtually no decent evidence that comes anywhere near proving Knox or Sollecito guilty beyond all doubt based in reason.

The fact that the Italian criminal justice system does not separate the roles o judge and jury is key to being able to make a confident prediction on the outcome. Whatever anyone might say about "equal weight" of the two professional judges and lay-judges (i.e. ordinary members of the public), the clear truth is that it's incredibly rare for the lay judges to contradict the professional judges when it comes to the verdict. This was as true of Massei's court (where Massei led the merry dance for guilty verdicts) as it is of Hellmann's court. We can be fairly confident that if Hellmann and Zanetti (the deputy judge, who's the other professional judge) are minded to acquit, then this is the way the lay jurors are highly likely to vote as well.

Knox and Sollecito will be acquitted within the next few weeks. There is zero chance of the prosecutors (or Maresca) salvaging their case at this point. The prosecution's closing arguments will be essentially the same as those put before Massei's court, except for the possibility that prosecutors will almost have to abandon Curatolo as a key witness, and they might well also be minded to abandon the knife and bra clasp in their arguments. By contrast, the defence will be able to offer a very coherent rebuttal of the entire prosecution case in their closing arguments.

To me, there is no chance that Hellmann's court will be able to come to any conclusion other than that there's insufficient evidence to find either Knox or Sollecito guilty. The more interesting question to me is whether Hellmann will make any kind of statement in open court at the time of the acquittals (or in his motivations document) to the effect that this was a case that should never have been brought to trial, and that not only was there insufficient evidence to convict, but there was in fact every reason to suggest that Knox and Sollecito had absolutely nothing to do with the crime. For the sake of the futures of Knox and Sollecito - as well as for the credibility of the Italian justice system in the longer term - I hope that Hellmann has the wisdom and insight to make such a statement, rather than simply announcing the acquittals.
 
* Even though Filomena's subsequent "recollection" was that there was glass on top of the clothing, I think that Filomena's memory was coloured by her having convinced herself of Knox's/Sollecito's guilt, and that Filomena and the postal police rummaged through the clothing in any case. Furthermore, there is absolutely zero photographic/video evidence to this effect, and in fact the photos of Filomena's room show glass dispersal within the room that is entirely consistent with someone breaking the window from outside and trialing some glass into the room as he enters fully.
-

Yes that's what makes the "staged" break-in theory so suspicious to me also. No real evidence. No photos, videos, nothing. Just recollections. None of it really explains how did the computer fall on its side, or the rock found in the room, or how glass got stacked to one side of the window, and a ding on one of the shutters? There is more evidence that proves the break-in was real than disproves it.

I also saw a photo (I think it was one included in Hendry's analysis of the break-in) of a scuff mark that looked like it might have been made by someone trying to climb into Filomena's window? Does anyone else recall this or am I doing too many drugs again?

Dave
 
The proof is in that you cannot complete the scenario and account for all the known evidence. Try it and then present a complete theory. A key point to remember is that the timeline is constrained. We have the time Meredith crosses the street and enters the cottage and we have the time that Meredith's cell phones have been removed from the cottage. In between these you have to stage the break-in, leave a dump in the toilet, create the bloody bare footprint on the mat in the other bath and lets not forget murdering Meredith. All of this has to be done in a order that leaves the evidence we know exists and doesn't create evidence we know doesn't exist.


So basically the time to take a dump and stage the break-in need to be added to the lone wolf broke in and was taking a dump scenario.

Okay, Rudy shows up and waits around for Meredith for their date, either planned or imagined. Somehow she let's him in and he goes for the toilet. He comes out and goes for Meredith and she karate kicks him. He is infuriated and attacks her. He pulls his knife and pricks her while attempting sex. She struggles and is cut badly. He freaks and stabs her to death. Time 9:15-:30. He washes off in the little bathroom and takes towels to Meredith room. Worries that people will know it's him and decides to stage the break-in. Goes outside gets a rock and throws it through the window, then goes back checks for money in Filomena's and Meredith's rooms. Then from Meredith's walks out the front door after locking her door. 9:45 - 10:00. Dumps the phones.

No matter how it happened if she died at 9:20 and the phone was outside the cottage by 10:18 there wasn't much time unless someone came back.
 
WOW!!!

ETA: timeline for murder

  • 20:45 Meredith leaves residence of Robyn Butterworth at Via Bontempi, 22 and walks with Sophie Purton.
    Time approximate, based on Sophie's statement that she arrived home in Via del Lupo at 20:55.
  • 20:55 Sophie Purton arrives home in Via del Lupo.
    Source Micheli Report. "On 17 November, P[urton] made a new prosecuting magistrate deposition...correcting the time that she was back in Via del Lupo, recalling that it was still 20:55".
  • 20:56 Phone call from Meredith's phone to mother, cut off almost immediately.
    "In evidence on Friday, Stefano Sisani, of the Perugia flying squad, revealed that a call to Kercher’s mother, Arline, in Coulsdon, Surrey, was made from her mobile at 8.56pm on the night of November 1. She used the phone daily to call her mother, who was ill. The call was cut off before she got through" (Times Online, March 22, 2009)
    Theory that call was cut off by attack is unlikely, as Meredith would still be near Sophie's flat at this time. More likely explanation is that call was dropped because of poor signal in tight medieval streets.
    Logged in phone memory (Massei Report pg 350)
  • 21:04 Sighting of figure thought to be Meredith on the car park CCTV camera, CCTV time adjusted forward 12 minutes per the defense's theory.
    The figure is walking from left to right on the same side of the street as the cottage. CCTV time stamp was said to be 20:43 in early news reports (when the figure was thought to be Amanda); later reports of 20:41 are possibly a confusion with Guede's sighting at 19:41. Fits with Sophie's arrival home at
  • 20:55, and the interrupted call at 20:56. (Telegraph 2007-11-12, Daily Mail 2009-03-14)
  • 21:05 Kercher arrives at cottage
    Time approximate, based on walk since leaving Sophie. Also matches up with female figure seen walking towards cottage gate on car park video at
  • 20:43. Prosecution claims clock is 10 minutes fast, see 13:34 on Nov. 2 for why it's probably 12 minutes slow. Video available on web is cropped and doesn't show camera timestamps. A still from te video has been discovered showing the timestamp of 20:51:36.17
  • 21:10 Last human interaction with RS's computer during this night.
    Testimony of police expert Marco Trotta at trial
  • 21:10:32 last access to the file Amelie.avi (Massei Report pg 325)
  • 21:20-21:30 time of Meredith's scream as recounted in Rudy's Skype call
  • 21:26 Last opening of file "Naruto ep 101.avi" recorded in spotlight metadata on Raffaele's computer. (from Raffaele's appeal)
    runtime is 20 minutes watch on hulu
    the last access time recorded in the filesystem is on Nov. 6th after Raffaele is in police custody.
  • 21:58 Attempt to call voice mail (from phone memory)
    Massei Report pg 350
  • 22:00 Kercher's phone attempts to call Abbey Bank.
    Source Micheli Report. Call fails because 44 prefix for UK not used.
  • 22:00 (aprox) Hoax bomb threat call to Elisabetta (villa where phones were recovered)
    (Massei Report pg 13)
  • 22:13:19 Kercher's mobile phone had received a picture message.
    Source Micheli Report. Connected via cell area of Ponte Rio - Montelaguardia.
    the phone connected to the 30064 Strada Vicinale Ponte Rio Monte La Guardia cell (Massei 337)
    (Massei Report pg 348) GPRS (internet) lasting 9 seconds to the IP address 10.205.46.41
-

Very well written and researched timeline Dan O,

thank you for including this with your post. Did you do this? I think I recall you saying you had done this, but I can't recall for sure off hand.

Anyway, KUDOS!!! to you (or whomever) for doing this,

Dave
 
A note on "investment" in this case, and the related topic of "caring" about the outcome:

It appears that some individuals are confused about the position of many people with regard to this case - including specifically my own position. Here, for the sake of clarification, is my position (which I suspect is shared by a fair few other posters here). I am not related to Knox, Sollecito, Guede or the Kerchers, and nor do I even know them or anyone connected to them. I have come to the conclusion that Meredith Kercher was almost certainly murdered by Rudy Guede acting alone, and also that - regardless of whether the Guede-lone-assailant theory is true or not - there is quite clearly insufficient evidence to convict Knox or Sollecito of the murder (or anything connected to the murder).

I have reached this position based solely upon all the publicly-available information on the case, and I also believe that there is sufficient information in the public domain for me to be confident about the robustness of this position. I am therefore interested in arguing and debating my position with other people who are also interested in the case. But I am absolutely categorically not emotionally attached to my position. As I have stated very many times before, if sufficient evidence of Knox's/Sollecito's guilt were suddenly to come to light (which it won't, but speaking hypothetically), I would have no problem whatsoever with re-evaluating my position. And if I subsequently was persuaded that Knox and/or Sollecito were indeed provably guilty of participation in the murder, I'd have no problem whatsoever publicly changing my position and admitting my mistake in my prior belief.

That's why I would categorise myself as someone who's not emotionally invested in the case. That doesn't mean that I sometimes want to passionately argue my position (especially when confronted with ignorance, idiocy or mendacity), but passion in argument is a totally different thing from emotional investment in a position. Indeed, a clear indicator of emotional investment in a position is when one is stubbornly refusing to change (or even re-evaluate) one's position even in the light of factors that contradict that position. And that makes me think far more of many commentators on the pro-guilt side of the debate than those on the pro-acquittal side of the debate.

Lastly, let's deal with this whole issue of "caring" about the outcome. Again, some people appear to want to smear sections of the pro-acquittal community by promoting the myth that this is just some sort of "parlour game" to us and we don't care whether or not Knox/Sollecito are acquitted or ultimately convicted (a viewpoint which, incidentally, sits uneasily next to accusations of emotional over-investment.....). But speaking personally, I care about the outcome of this case. I care because I believe that Knox and Sollecito should be acquitted, and I therefore want to see this happen. I will be happy for them and their families/friends when it does happen, and conversely I would be saddened and somewhat angered if for some reason they are found guilty in Hellmann's court. I also care about the effect of all this upon Meredith's family and friends. I hope they can come to terms with the acquittals in time, and come to realise that Knox and Sollecito should never have been brought to trial in the first place for Meredith's murder. One man alone should pay the price for her murder, and that is Rudy Guede.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom