Perry no longer thinks SS is a Ponzi scheme.

I will say that Social Security DOES resemble a Pozi Scheme in many ways but there are differences.

Using the logic displayed here one could argue that the whole US government is a Ponzi scheme as they rely on future receipts from US citizens to pay for our lifestyle today. I know my children will be paying off our debt to China at some point.

So, is the US Government a Ponzi scheme? Is every nation that is in debt a Ponzi scheme?
 
Lurker said:
I will say that Social Security DOES resemble a Pozi Scheme in many ways but there are differences.

Using the logic displayed here one could argue that the whole US government is a Ponzi scheme as they rely on future receipts from US citizens to pay for our lifestyle today. I know my children will be paying off our debt to China at some point.

So, is the US Government a Ponzi scheme? Is every nation that is in debt a Ponzi scheme?
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Yes, as has been previously pointed out.

Ziggurat said:
So Paul Samuelson argued that it was basically a Ponzi scheme, and he did so in defense of Social security.
Earthborn said:
He also said that basically the whole free market economy is a Ponzi scheme.
If Republicans were to argue in favour of sustainability in other areas of the market, their criticism of social security wouldn't sound quite as hollow.
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Click to expand...
 
RandFan said:
Yes, as has been previously pointed out.
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Damn, that's what I get for skimming. Usually I read the whole thread before responding but the whole SS=Ponzi thing got me too excited.

Perhaps my post can be seen as putting an exclamation point on Eathborn's?
 
Lurker said:
Damn, that's what I get for skimming. Usually I read the whole thread before responding but the whole SS=Ponzi thing got me too excited.

Perhaps my post can be seen as putting an exclamation point on Eathborn's?
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:) It's a great reason to bring it up. BTW, that quote from Earthborn and Zig are from another thread. I just quoted them here. But you are right on.
 
Lurker said:
I will say that Social Security DOES resemble a Pozi Scheme in many ways but there are differences.....So, is the US Government a Ponzi scheme? Is every nation that is in debt a Ponzi scheme?
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Do you think there might possibly be some problems with a Ponzi scheme inside a Ponzi scheme? Actually if we include the money printing, we can consider the scheme recursing at third depth.

;)
 
mhaze said:
Do you think there might possibly be some problems with a Ponzi scheme inside a Ponzi scheme? Actually if we include the money printing, we can consider the scheme recursing at third depth.
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"Money printing"? Oy vey, We've gone over this before. Govts print money. It's what they do. It's NOTHING akin to a Ponzi scheme unless you are talking about hyperinflation. So, are you?
 
Lurker said:
I will say that Social Security DOES resemble a Pozi Scheme in many ways but there are differences.

Using the logic displayed here one could argue that the whole US government is a Ponzi scheme as they rely on future receipts from US citizens to pay for our lifestyle today. I know my children will be paying off our debt to China at some point.

So, is the US Government a Ponzi scheme? Is every nation that is in debt a Ponzi scheme?
Click to expand...

Again the only characteristic Social Security has in common with a Ponzi Scheme is that people put money in and that money benefits other people. This is not only true of governments that are in debt. It's true of every taxpayer-financed enterprise.

And if that's all they mean, then it's an abuse of language to call it a Ponzi Scheme. It's on par with referring to income taxes as theft.

It's inflammatory and misleading.

I think with Social Security the underlying false assumption is that it is somehow an IRA. But Social Security is not a voluntary investment. It is a government safety net funded by a tax. There never was a promise that money being paid in wasn't going to go out to provide benefits. In fact, that's how it worked from the start.

The main thrust of a Ponzi Scheme is misleading investors as to the value of the investment by paying them money that doesn't come from the investment. This principle and distinguishing characteristic is not shared with Social Security.

So it is false to say Social Security is a Ponzi Scheme or is like a Ponzi Scheme.
 
JoeTheJuggler said:
....main thrust of a Ponzi Scheme is misleading investors as to the value of the investment by paying them money that doesn't come from the investment. This principle and distinguishing characteristic is not shared with Social Security.

So it is false to say Social Security is a Ponzi Scheme or is like a Ponzi Scheme.
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Because you don't have a RIGHT TO ANY RETURN?

Yep, time for that "honest discussion", methinks.
 
mhaze said:
Because you don't have a RIGHT TO ANY RETURN?

Yep, time for that "honest discussion", methinks.
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Um. . .do you think you have a right to an individual return on taxes?

And don't give me that "time for" BS--this has been my very consistent position all along. Social Security is not an investment. It is not a forced IRA.

It is a taxpayer financed safety net to provide assistance to retirees and the disabled.
 
And there is the expectation of returns in certain amounts, but there is no obligation of the government to provide them in any amount whatsoever.
 
johnny karate said:
In a way, everything is a Ponzi scheme.
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But they don't like the word. Because it's a mean word. It's not a warm-basket-of-friendly-feelings-word-we-hold-hands-and-sing-kumbala-together-teary-eyed-word.

Some things about that "honest discussion" might not be pretty and nice.
 
Lurker said:
Hmm, should I trust;
1. 80 years of checks going out exactly as promised

or

2. Guy on Internets using scare tactics?


Look, I am not saying that SS does not need help but to make silly charges to insinuate that I might not get checks is ludricous. Do you really think it possible that I would get no check in the future (assuming SS is not dismantled)? Where does the money from the incoming SS tax go?

I'll add that the CBO said if nothing is changed that benefits would be reduced around 2036 or so. The reduction would be approximately 25%. Sounds like checks would still be going out to me. How do you interpret it differently?
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Ask all the people in Russia that stopped getting retirement checks in the 1991-1992 timeframe your questions.

Wait....did something happen in 1991 that might have had an influence?

No, that's too far away.

Ask someone in Greece if their retirement checks were reduced last year.

No, that couldn't possibly happen here.

Ask someone in Argentina what the buying power of their retirement checks was in 2002 and thence forward.

Want more?

:)

One more time: Do you have a binding contract for the receipt of payments in exchange for your contributions to SS?

Look at it this way. You pay for living in a house, and it's rumored that the landlord gives people the house after they get old. You know some people that the landlord has given them the houses. Those people are happy.

So everything's fine in your life, right?

Wrong.
 
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mhaze said:
But they don't like the word. Because it's a mean word. It's not a warm-basket-of-friendly-feelings-word-we-hold-hands-and-sing-kumbala-together-teary-eyed-word.

Some things about that "honest discussion" might not be pretty and nice.
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No, that's not it. What is it, hmmm... let's see. Oh, I know INCONSISTENCY! Conservatives only use it when it can be used in a demagogic fashion.
 
mhaze said:
And there is the expectation of returns in certain amounts, but there is no obligation of the government to provide them in any amount whatsoever.
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There is no reasonable expectation that SS guarantees a specific benefit - and I doubt that you can demonstrate the government has ever issued such a guarantee. It is reasonable to expect that SS will provide some benefit, and that expectation is nearly certain to be met.

I don' see the relevance of whether or not some individuals may have unreasonable expectations for social security benefits. There is nothing in the presence or absence of such expectations that makes SS similar to a Ponzi scheme, especially as such expectations have not been falsely fortified by the government.
 
mhaze said:
But they don't like the word. Because it's a mean word. It's not a warm-basket-of-friendly-feelings-word-we-hold-hands-and-sing-kumbala-together-teary-eyed-word.
Click to expand...

Or it might be because it's a glib and inaccurate description of Social Security that a certain Republican candidate used as a scare tactic, but is now running away from as fast as he can.

mhaze said:
Some things about that "honest discussion" might not be pretty and nice.
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It's hilarious you keep using the Rick Perry "honest discussion" quote, considering that he can't seem to remain consistent on any issue for longer than it takes to read the most recent poll numbers.

Tell your hero he needs to first figure out what discussion he wants to have before we can determine how "honest" it is. Does he want to dismantle Social Security or does he want to reform it? I guess it depends on what day of the week you ask him.
 
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