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Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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@ halides1

Not sure, it was sometime ago, but the article I think was called "House of Horrors" or something like that and was asking how Amanda Knox could claim to have taken a shower in this bathroom? It presented the pink chemical as if it were blood. No mention of the chemicals being used to test for blood police or forensics.
 
Bruce Fisher said:
I never knew that a dunk tank was violent. The one's I have participated in usually raise money for charity.
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Maybe not, but in a discussion about a murder and the possibility of a devastating outcome for two other people, maybe jokes like this are not appropriate. This story is not about the people who have discussed it.

This thread may have value with regard to its ability to disseminate information and analysis about the case, but juvenile comments detract from the credibility of the thread to people who happen along looking for some insight about the case and they cause irrelevant digressions.

ETA: Could somebody summarize the issue of the surveillance tape? The discussion assumes that everybody is up to speed on the issue and I for one am not sure what this is all about.
 
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it was a botched test but good propaganda

GreyFox said:
@ halides1

Not sure, it was sometime ago, but the article I think was called "House of Horrors" or something like that and was asking how Amanda Knox could claim to have taken a shower in this bathroom? It presented the pink chemical as if it were blood. No mention of the chemicals being used to test for blood police or forensics.
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GreyFox,

Here is the link to the Daily Mail article. They wrote, "The images also show the apartment's bathroom sink and walls smeared with blood." LondonJohn, Dan O., and I have argued that the pink color is phenolphthalein, and we also believe that unless it is possible to spray a whole room with peroxide and photograph it in less than 5-10 seconds, the test is utterly meaningless. Judy Bachrach in Vanity Fair implied the same thing as you said, namely how could she have taken a shower in all that blood, but she did not come right out and say it.
 
Row in the facts

RoseMontague said:
The fact that they are reading the appeals and reporting on the arguments made is significant. Who knew the vast PR supertanker had finally made it to the coast of Italy?
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At last.
three years and ten months it took along time, and I have been at sea from france to japan and that took eight weeks.
 
davefoc said:
Maybe not, but in a discussion about a murder and the possibility of a devastating outcome for two other people, maybe jokes like this are not appropriate. This story is not about the people who have discussed it.

This thread may have value with regard to its ability to disseminate information and analysis about the case, but juvenile comments detract from the credibility of the thread to people who happen along looking for some insight about the case and they cause irrelevant digressions.

ETA: Could somebody summarize the issue of the surveillance tape? The discussion assumes that everybody is up to speed on the issue and I for one am not sure what this is all about.
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Whether jokes are appropriate or not is irrelevant to my post. It is simply wrong to say that a suggestion that someone be put in a dunk tank is a threat of violence. LionKing's post was nonsense. I think nonsense hurts the credibility of the thread.
 
davefoc said:
Maybe not, but in a discussion about a murder and the possibility of a devastating outcome for two other people, maybe jokes like this are not appropriate. This story is not about the people who have discussed it.

This thread may have value with regard to its ability to disseminate information and analysis about the case, but juvenile comments detract from the credibility of the thread to people who happen along looking for some insight about the case and they cause irrelevant digressions.

ETA: Could somebody summarize the issue of the surveillance tape? The discussion assumes that everybody is up to speed on the issue and I for one am not sure what this is all about.
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I will give you my understanding of the issue. Shortly after the murder a local paper faxed some information to Mignini's office to the effect that Raffaele called the cops after they had arrived. This would indicate guilt as it would show he was trying to pretend they were calling it in because they knew the cops were already there anyway and it would look good if they had called the cops rather than them just show up and find them there with a dead body. Now the time Raffaele called is confirmed through phone records and the time the cops got there is confirmed by their logs (evidently 12:35). Now it happens that there was a CCTV camera in the garage activated by motion that showed the arrival of the cops at 12:45. The cops just assumed the clock was 10 minutes fast and actual time they got there was 12:35, which was before Raffaele called the cops. The problem with this is none of the cops saw Raffaele call these other cops (The State cops rather than the locals who had just showed up there because of the found cell phone) and he was with them as he and the Knox girl showed the cops the evidence of the break in and the blood spots in the toilet, etc.

This evidence of guilt was promoted for 2 years until the trial when the defense proved it false. The way they did this was from Amanda's phone records. Evidently Raffaele had give them her number when he called it in and they had trouble finding the place and called her back on her phone which was 1:20PM by phone records (nobody had called them to say never mind). The problem was the CCTV camera showed them arriving at 1:12PM and they would not have called Amanda for directions if they were already there. This proved the CCTV clock was actually 10 minutes slow instead of fast proving Raffaele called the State Cops before the local cops arrived (LOL). Going by memory on the times, might not be exact.
 
Kaosium said:
The more information they had that indicated the postal police got there at ~12:35, the more certain they would be that Raffaele must be lying. Hell, if they actually had failed to check the video camera across the street for clues, perhaps compiling the arrival time--or verifying it--caused them to do so. Seriously though, I know we're talking about cops who have no clue how to investigate a murder, but any theft or petty crime is going to suggest checking for cameras, it ought to be second nature to think of it.
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One of the first references I came across before I started keeping records was that 10 days after the murder, Raffaele's defense asked for copies of the tapes from the various CCTV cameras in the area and were told that the prosecution didn't find anything useful on the tapes and they had already been erased. I wish I could find that page again but it was on a small italian news site that didn't get archived by google.
 
Hi RoseMontague,
Thanks for the CCTV timeline,
I learned something that I did not know, this being how it was proven in court, without a doubt, that the CCTV clock was slow. And it reminds me to correctly update all 5 of my own Canon Vixia video cameras, that I use for shark research, once again. Cool reminder.

Hi Bruce Fisher,
Thanks for that link, it gave me a few sad, silent tears as I read it and looked at the photographs of a young lady who had her life ended much too soon...
R.I.P. Meredith Susanna Cara Kercher
 
RoseMontague said:
I will give you my understanding of the issue. Shortly after the murder a local paper faxed some information to Mignini's office to the effect that Raffaele called the cops after they had arrived. This would indicate guilt as it would show he was trying to pretend they were calling it in because they knew the cops were already there anyway and it would look good if they had called the cops rather than them just show up and find them there with a dead body. Now the time Raffaele called is confirmed through phone records and the time the cops got there is confirmed by their logs (evidently 12:35). Now it happens that there was a CCTV camera in the garage activated by motion that showed the arrival of the cops at 12:45. The cops just assumed the clock was 10 minutes fast and actual time they got there was 12:35, which was before Raffaele called the cops. The problem with this is none of the cops saw Raffaele call these other cops (The State cops rather than the locals who had just showed up there because of the found cell phone) and he was with them as he and the Knox girl showed the cops the evidence of the break in and the blood spots in the toilet, etc.

This evidence of guilt was promoted for 2 years until the trial when the defense proved it false. The way they did this was from Amanda's phone records. Evidently Raffaele had give them her number when he called it in and they had trouble finding the place and called her back on her phone which was 1:20PM by phone records (nobody had called them to say never mind). The problem was the CCTV camera showed them arriving at 1:12PM and they would not have called Amanda for directions if they were already there. This proved the CCTV clock was actually 10 minutes slow instead of fast proving Raffaele called the State Cops before the local cops arrived (LOL). Going by memory on the times, might not be exact.
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Thanks for the very clear explanation Rose.

The police were negligent in not determining the accuracy of the CCTV cameras times. Especially so if they knew there were discrepancies between the police arrival times indicated on the CCTV camera footage versus the arrival times reported by the police.

Even long after the crime it would have been very easy to determine the CCTV camera's offset from true time, and its rate of time loss/gain. These could have been used to retroactively calculate accurate times for any of the CCTV camera footage.
 
Did they run out of money or something?

Dan O. said:
One of the first references I came across before I started keeping records was that 10 days after the murder, Raffaele's defense asked for copies of the tapes from the various CCTV cameras in the area and were told that the prosecution didn't find anything useful on the tapes and they had already been erased. I wish I could find that page again but it was on a small italian news site that didn't get archived by google.
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Dan O.,

Why am I not surprised? That total lack of transparency is plain vanilla wrong.
 
RoseMontague said:
I will give you my understanding of the issue. Shortly after the murder a local paper faxed some information to Mignini's office to the effect that Raffaele called the cops after they had arrived.
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Whoa. That is a bit I didn't know. Do you have a reference?

The earliest news reports I find are from November 12:
*2007-11-12 [http://www.corriere.it/cronache/07_novembre_12/meredith_telecamere.shtml Corrier (it)]
*:PERUGIA - On the evening of November 1 Amanda Knox returned home at 20:43. His entry was recorded by the camera which is located in the parking lot in front. The images are quite sharp, capturing the details. You see the young through the door. Wear light-colored clothing, the skirt has. She is alone.

The video itself was posted 2008-09-25


On March 13, 2009 the prosecution presented this video in court and claimed that the time was 20:43 (the actual CCTV timestamp had been cropped off to magnify the image of the figure crossing the street). Sollecito's defense however contested the manner in which they were identified times of the images (Lanazione).

At the end of the trial, The defense presented their evidence correlating the arrival of the Police with the phone call to Amanda's phone and proved that the prosecution had improperly shifted the CCTV time earlier instead of later.

Recently, we were able to locate the original CCTV image of the figure crossing the street with the official CCTV time stamp of 20:51:36.17. This proved that the prosecution had from the beginning been shifting the time backwards to 20:43 and using the forward time shift of the defense the actual time would be 21:00 to 21:05 which correlates with when Meredith would be arriving home after departing with Sophie at 20:55.



The press never picked up if the prosecution answered the defense request for how the times were calculated. Does anyone have the trial transcripts from March 13, 2009?
 
halides1
I wonder if the phenolphthalein reacts to everyday cleaners used to wipe/clean the bath room. I think this is also used on paint lines to titrate (clean line) baths ?
 
RoseMontague said:
Frank was the source on that one, I will try to find the reference.

I don't have any of the early transcripts, unfortunately.
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Perugia Shock 16 Jan 2011
What is this new report? Just like the fax that arrived on November 6, that assured that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito called the police after the postal police arrived? (Which was revealed a lie. We pay them to lie against us).​
 
GreyFox said:
halides1
I wonder if the phenolphthalein reacts to everyday cleaners used to wipe/clean the bath room. I think this is also used on paint lines to titrate (clean line) baths ?
Click to expand...

No need for anything that complex. We know that the test reacts to air by turning pink after only a short period of time.
 
Dan O. said:
One of the first references I came across before I started keeping records was that 10 days after the murder, Raffaele's defense asked for copies of the tapes from the various CCTV cameras in the area and were told that the prosecution didn't find anything useful on the tapes and they had already been erased. I wish I could find that page again but it was on a small italian news site that didn't get archived by google.
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Wasn't there also some discussion early on in the thread about the police having left it too late to get footage from some of the CCTV cameras in the area, since by the time they checked the footage had already been deleted? IIRC you posted a picture of what was thought to be one of the cameras. Or am I confusing it with the above?
 
Does anyone have the video from the Nightline story about the case just days... Or weeks after the murder occurred? I remember watching the story and their guilt was just assumed. Then I thought it was a case of police using the two students digital tracks to solve the case. I really want to see that initial story again.
 
Newspaper scoops...

RoseMontague said:
I will give you my understanding of the issue. Shortly after the murder a local paper faxed some information to Mignini's office to the effect that Raffaele called the cops after they had arrived. This would indicate guilt as it would show he was trying to pretend they were calling it in because they knew the cops were already there anyway and it would look good if they had called the cops rather than them just show up and find them there with a dead body.<snip>
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Hi everyone,
What is the story behind this?
A newspaper faxed the info?
How the heck does that make sense?
A newspaper gives the cops inside information about cell phone useage times?

Please tell me that this was not the same newspaper that brought forward, many months later,
the high on heroin witness Antonio Curatolo and who else - IIRC, Marco Quintavalle.
Or was it some other newspaper?
 
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