Being transgender is hard

[truethat]

No, the blind spot is yours.

You are the one who made the claim that animals can't experience gender dysmorphia, and you gave as your reason that they don't experience consciousness the way we do.

First, you have been shown that some animals do seem to experience some degree of consciousness.

Second, you have failed to explain why consciousness is a requirement for gender identity problems.

Third, you have not explained why the level of consciousness experienced by some animals is not sufficient to make them susceptible to gender identity problems (to whatever degree consciousness is involved, which as I just said, you have not explained).

The point I made in the beginning which I will stick to, is that it is a very bad idea to wander off to discuss something so complex with regard to animal and human consciousness before you really understand the basics of gender identity in humans.

I think it will take the conversation into very murky waters and only create more confusion and also be very insulting to transgendered people.

You would agree that the topic of consciousness deserves a thread of it's own, no?

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Why would studying sexual orientation have anything to do with studying Gender if they are two completely different things? I'm not understanding what you think will be gained by this?

They are probably both related to feminisation/masculinisation of different parts of the brain.

 

[truethat]

They are probably both related to feminisation/masculinisation of different parts of the brain.

True, but as I said, that is a huge discussion that would deserve a different thread.

 

[L.Y.S.]

True, but as I said, that is a huge discussion that would deserve a different thread.

No it deserves this thread. It's relevant.

 

[truethat]

No it deserves this thread. It's relevant.

How is it relevant? The topic of this thread is "Being transgendered is hard"

 

[iknownothing]

Why would studying sexual orientation have anything to do with studying Gender if they are two completely different things? I'm not understanding what you think will be gained by this?

Because both issues are hard to disentangle from human culture, especially concerning gender roles. And both suffer from accusations of being unnatural. Both suffer from numerous taboos. So it is instructive to look outside human culture and consider how these things work out with other animals. (And I say "other" because we are animals.)

Also, both issues are still poorly understood in terms of why they occur -- physiologically, environmentally, emotionally, etc. Which unfortunately leaves the door open for certain groups to denounce them as immoral. Showing how such things can occur in nature brings it back out of the realm of "destructive bad lifestyle choice" to "this is how some people are made."

And again, studying animals is a good way to shed light on all aspects of human thought and behavior. We are animals! We are affected by brains, environments, and survival pressures in many of the same ways that other animals are. Why take this one solitary issue and refuse to consider it part of the whole human package?

Your posts here honestly irk me. You seem to be so afraid of allowing any dissent, even friendly, informed dissent. And in trying to squelch it, you are unfairly casting other people in the roles of uneducated bigots. All to serve your own sense of being the Defender. The people who have been posting here deserve better than that.

 

[truethat]

I also don't think that it's wrong to question whether parents are correctly interpreting their child's situation as gender dysmorphia rather than something else. Or to question whether non-invasive, non-pharmaceutical counseling that preserves the child's future ability to have children would be a kinder approach.

However, on both counts I think the answers, unfortunately, that it is a real condition, and that those rare parents who support their children in this are not misinterpreting it. I have read through some stories and blogs, and it strikes me that time and again, the parents are brought on board slowly and reluctantly. Even those parents who later become outspoken about it, needed some time to get fully on board.

And if there is a way to counsel someone out of it, it hasn't been discovered yet. And the forms of therapy that have been tried have been terribly damaging. So even though therapy seems on the surface like the kinder, easier route to take, I don't think that experience bears that out.

Which is too bad. It would be nice if there was some way to help a child to gender-identify with their physical sex, without having to face a future filled with so much difficulty.

Oh, and regarding the question of whether a child can even think of such things at a young age: I think most children don't, because they have an easy time identifying with what they are. If you're a boy and love it, and gravitate towards boy things, and easily fit into a boy role in life, then you have no need to think about it. It does seem like those children who have this issue think through these things because it all feels off, and they have to.

It's easy to see why, for example, with the boy who had the botched circumcision and was raised as a girl: it makes perfect sense that he felt like something was wrong, and you can see how that tortured him during his life. The thing is, it seems like transgender children have that same sense, even though the reasons are not so clear. If they are expressing the same things that he did, it seems that the most compassionate response is to respect that.

But it would be terrifying to be the parent and have to decide whether you really are taking the right course. What if you're over-reacting to some other gender issue when you let your child transition? What if you under-react and the child grows up miserable? I doubt that anyone makes those decisions lightly.

You've answered your own question. Obviously there is a risk of a parent going gung ho and misinterpreting their child's behavior. However if a boy thinks for a while he is a girl and then realizes it's a phase I doubt a parent is going to force their child to continue to present as a girl. There may be some crazy parent out there who does that but think in reality how likely it is that a teenager is going to continue to dress as a girl if he realizes he is a boy after all.

 

[truethat]

Because both issues are hard to disentangle from human culture, especially concerning gender roles. And both suffer from accusations of being unnatural. Both suffer from numerous taboos. So it is instructive to look outside human culture and consider how these things work out with other animals. (And I say "other" because we are animals.)

Also, both issues are still poorly understood in terms of why they occur -- physiologically, environmentally, emotionally, etc. Which unfortunately leaves the door open for certain groups to denounce them as immoral. Showing how such things can occur in nature brings it back out of the realm of "destructive bad lifestyle choice" to "this is how some people are made."

And again, studying animals is a good way to shed light on all aspects of human thought and behavior. We are animals! We are affected by brains, environments, and survival pressures in many of the same ways that other animals are. Why take this one solitary issue and refuse to consider it part of the whole human package?

Your posts here honestly irk me. You seem to be so afraid of allowing any dissent, even friendly, informed dissent. And in trying to squelch it, you are unfairly casting other people in the roles of uneducated bigots. All to serve your own sense of being the Defender. The people who have been posting here deserve better than that.

I apologize for my former attitude. I will not be so pushy any more.

However I will say that insisting on discussing homosexuality when it has nothing to do with Gender is weird to me. It seems that some posters are bent on making one have something to do with the other when they are completely different conversations.

 

[L.Y.S.]

Your posts here honestly irk me. You seem to be so afraid of allowing any dissent, even friendly, informed dissent. And in trying to squelch it, you are unfairly casting other people in the roles of uneducated bigots. All to serve your own sense of being the Defender. The people who have been posting here deserve better than that.

To her credit she has apologized. This is the first step.

 

[iknownothing]

The point I made in the beginning which I will stick to, is that it is a very bad idea to wander off to discuss something so complex with regard to animal and human consciousness before you really understand the basics of gender identity in humans.

And I think you can't understand humans in isolation from other animal species.

 

[truethat]

And I think you can't understand humans in isolation from other animal species.

Transgender is simple. The brain thinks like the opposite of the way the body presents.

Why? Well that is an interesting conversation and we could examine some of the things that are related to it but it's important not to bring in topics about elephant sexuality etc.. If you want to discuss animals you need to be very careful about keeping the conversation on Consciousness and Self Identity. Not behavior.

 

[L.Y.S.]

However I will say that insisting on discussing homosexuality when it has nothing to do with Gender is weird to me. It seems that some posters are bent on making one have something to do with the other when they are completely different conversations.

You fail to see that science is linking many of the same causations for homosexuality and transexuality. Including hormones, environmental pressures, and feminizing of the fetus in male situations. It is a situation which is comprehensive; it cannot be separated because science is deriving many similar ideas for both situations. And while the ideas supporting the natural occurance of homosexuality are stacking up, little is being done to confirm the same of transexuals. And if this situation is only human, then why is it only human? Why do only humans go through this? What is the explanation? It is when we answer these questions that we get closer to solving the truth. I personally could care less if my son wanted to wear a dress or a pink shirt, as long as I understood causation behind it.

 

[truethat]

You fail to see that science is linking many of the same causations for homosexuality and transexuality. Including hormones, environmental pressures, and feminizing of the fetus in male situations. It is a situation which is comprehensive; it cannot be separated because science is deriving many similar ideas for both situations. And while the ideas supporting the natural occurance of homosexuality are stacking up, little is being done to confirm the same of transexuals. And if this situation is only human, then why is it only human? Why do only humans go through this? What is the explanation? It is when we answer these questions that we get closer to solving the truth. I personally could care less if my son wanted to wear a dress or a pink shirt, as long as I understood causation behind it.

Please show me where science is linking the two?

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Please show me where science is linking the two?

You just agreed with me that there was a link scientifically...

 

[L.Y.S.]

Please show me where science is linking the two?

I said many of the situations are linked. Including the idea that hormones feminizing the fetus makes a man gay. This 5 minute video will add to this argument. Many of the same arguments are being made for transexuals.

You just agreed with me that there was a link scientifically...

Truth

 

[Stereolab]

There is a great interview by Chaz Bono on the Letterman show where he discusses that he appreciates the support by the gay community but he feels that it causes confusion because Transgender has nothing to do with being gay. I'll see if I can find it for you.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mU7YMTJ8ntE

That's the first part, I think he discusses it in the second part.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9lDuZ-KVvU&feature=related

So it is just a coincidence that Chaz Bono self-identified as an out lesbian, wrote a book entitled "Family Outing: A Guide to the Coming Out Process for Gays, Lesbians, and Their Families", served on The Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, etc. etc.?

Look, I'd never argue that homosexuality and transgender are the same thing. I think people can declare themselves neither or one or both or whatever they like. But you make these statements that are just silly, and then call people ignorant when they call you on them.

 

[truethat]

So it is just a coincidence that Chaz Bono self-identified as an out lesbian, wrote a book entitled "Family Outing: A Guide to the Coming Out Process for Gays, Lesbians, and Their Families", served on The Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, etc. etc.?

Look, I'd never argue that homosexuality and transgender are the same thing. I think people can declare themselves neither or one or both or whatever they like. But you make these statements that are just silly, and then call people ignorant when they call you on them.

Did you actually listen to the interview? Chaz says he was confused because he thought he was a lesbian, he didn't understand that he was a transgender.

That's what I posted before, that from a societal perspective the transgender is often confused with a homosexual because it looks like homosexuality. But it is completely different.


Now I'm annoyed. I gave you information and you reject it based on your desire to stick to your argument.

Chaz clearly explains it in the interview. Watch it again, if you even did the first time.

 

[truethat]

Masculine feminine are related to both homosexuality and gender but homosexuality is not related to gender.


Think of a fork in the road, main idea of masculine an feminine then branching off into two different directions. The two branches of the fork in the road are not connected at all even though the main point leads to them.

So stop trying to connect them. Sheesh.

 

[Stereolab]

That's what I posted before, that from a societal perspective the transgender is often confused with a homosexual because it looks like homosexuality. But it is completely different.

You really have to choose your words carefully when you are forced to explain how things are related after you have claimed they're not, huh?

 

[L.Y.S.]

Masculine feminine are related to both homosexuality and gender but homosexuality is not related to gender.


Think of a fork in the road, main idea of masculine an feminine then branching off into two different directions. The two branches of the fork in the road are not connected at all even though the main point leads to them.

So stop trying to connect them. Sheesh.

Unfortunately many of the causations are similar and medical science has not yet found a way to distinguish (physically) why these different choices arise. However, this brain study does yield some potential. But the experiment it self was poorly controlled and had a very small population. The test was biased at best. There needs to be a diverse range of comparisons, and science needs to unlock what the “white stuff” is. And if the “white stuff” is seen in any other populations. Does any of these patterns match self-image, identity, or addiction disorders? Before we can totally accept any of the evidence you have provided, there needs to be a plethora of studies to disprove the other ideas about the subject. There also needs to be a wider test population than was given in the previous studies I've seen.