Could the very high rate of mental illness in Europe be related to religion decline?

[DOC]

Good points, though I have my reservations about the highlighted one. They are all physical disorders unless we want to invoke mind/body dualism. I don;t see the difference between depression and stroke in that respect. They're both caused by brain dysfunction.

Personal and societal sin could be a contributing factor to the causing of physical disorders. For example if highly processed foods are a sin and eating highly processed foods all of your life contribute to stroke or depression, then sin was the ultimate cause of those physical diseases.

If overworking your employees is a sin. Then the physical strokes which might have been caused by that overwork is related to sin even though it is physical in nature.

If the rich as a whole don't want to be fairly taxed, that could be a sin. This sin might cause less money to be placed where it is needed more and thus causing more stress on certain groups of people thus increasing the chances for mental illness in those groups. Thus sin indirectly caused some mental illness.

 

[welshdean]

Edge, perhaps you can answer the post I addressed to Novest. I'm particularly interested in your response to the fact that, though the U.S. and Canada have comparable rates of church attendance, Canada's mental illness rate - 20% is less than half that of the U.S.

It's the country, fresh air, obscurity, woods, ice, and nature.
They’re not at war and in debt either.
The rate of church goers doesn't matter, there are many believers who don't go to church for what ever reasons.
The whole world is crazy.

Thanks for clearing it up for us .

 

[dafydd]

Personal and societal sin could be a contributing factor to the causing of physical disorders. For example if highly processed foods are a sin and eating highly processed foods all of your life contribute to stroke or depression, then sin was the ultimate cause of those physical diseases.

If overworking your employees is a sin. Then the physical strokes which might have been caused by that overwork is related to sin even though it is physical in nature.

If the rich as a whole don't want to be fairly taxed, that could be a sin. This sin might cause less money to be placed where it is needed more and thus causing more stress on certain groups of people thus increasing the chances for mental illness in those groups. Thus sin indirectly caused some mental illness.

There are metaphysical strokes? You must have lived on highly processed food all your life.

 

[Akhenaten]

Personal and societal sin could be a contributing factor to the causing of physical disorders. For example if highly processed foods are a sin and eating highly processed foods all of your life contribute to stroke or depression, then sin was the ultimate cause of those physical diseases.

There's no such thing as sin and your analogy is absurd.

If overworking your employees is a sin. Then the physical strokes which might have been caused by that overwork is related to sin even though it is physical in nature.

It's not.

If the rich as a whole don't want to be fairly taxed, that could be a sin. This sin might cause less money to be placed where it is needed more and thus causing more stress on certain groups of people thus increasing the chances for mental illness in those groups.

No it couldn't.

Thus sin indirectly caused some mental illness.

This conclusion is too clueless to even be described as a non sequitur.

 

[dafydd]

This conclusion is too clueless to even be described as a non sequitur.

We need a whole new category to describe Doc's ramblings.

 

[Craig B]

We need a whole new category to describe Doc's ramblings.

Maybe by "sin" DOC means "reprehensible act". Underpaying employees and evading taxes do indeed fall into that category. But these things happen in the USA as well as, or even more than, in Europe. So it's still hard to make sense of DOC's argument.

 

[Mojo]

Personal and societal sin could be a contributing factor to the causing of physical disorders. For example if highly processed foods are a sin and eating highly processed foods all of your life contribute to stroke or depression, then sin was the ultimate cause of those physical diseases.

If overworking your employees is a sin. Then the physical strokes which might have been caused by that overwork is related to sin even though it is physical in nature.

If the rich as a whole don't want to be fairly taxed, that could be a sin. This sin might cause less money to be placed where it is needed more and thus causing more stress on certain groups of people thus increasing the chances for mental illness in those groups. Thus sin indirectly caused some mental illness.

Your argument wasn't that sin causes mental illnes. It was that the decline of religion is linked to increased rates of mental illness.

You haven't provided any evidence that these activities are sins, or that atheists are more likely to do these than theists. The under-representation of atheists in the American prison population suggests that atheists may actually sin less than theists (of course, it could just be that they are smart enough not to get caught so often).

And, of course, this is another of your circular arguments. You are claiming that "sin" causes certain conditions, and then defining certain activities that you think may cause these conditions as "sins".

 

[Pup]

This new angle to the argument seems to be saying that religion is a more useful way to enforce behavior. The problem is that it becomes a two-step process:

1) The religion has to correctly identify what behaviors lead to higher mental illness and label it a sin.

2) The religion has to enforce this better than would occur in a society without the religion.

 

[joobz]

Where, which post says the American rate is higher than 38%. And we are not talking about a once in a lifetime occurrence, we are talking the current rate.

As you recognize that we must use equivalent statistics, your request is silly. Until a study is done with the same criteria as used in the OP, your request is simply not honest.

Here is an apples to apples comparison between countries showing US as the top of the heap.

I went to the link and found the following listings of countries (or in the case of China, just the city of Beijing) concerning rates of mental illness by precentage of the population:

U.S 26.4
Ukraine 20.5
France 18.4
Columbia 17.8
Lebanon 16.4
Netherlands 14.9
Mexico 12.2
Belgium 12.0
Spain 9.2
Beijing, China 9.1
Germany 9.1
Japan 8.8
Italy 8.2
Nigeria 4.7

The average of the European nations listed was a bit under 13.2%, compared with the U.S. rate of 26.4%. There seems to be no correlation between degree of religious conviction and mental illness. Otherwise, one would have to explain why Columbia, which is much more religious than Germany has a mental illness rate of 17.8%, while Germany has a rate of 9.1%. Italy, on the other hand, has a rate of only 8.2%

Also, if religion is the deciding factor, perhaps the U.S.needs to emulate Japan's eclectic mix of Buddhism and Shinto worship. That might bring our rate of 26.4% down to Japan's low rate of 8.8%. On the other hand, were we all to convert to Roman Catholicism, we might get down to Italy's rate of 8.2%. Of course, I'm not serious about either of these propositions.

The degree of government, nanny-state, interference in people's lives would also seem to have no correlation to mental illness rates. Consider that France, with the high rate of 18.4% and Germany, with a rate of 9.1% - less than half that of France - are both welfare states.

Of course, mental illness rates aren't the only measure of quality of life. Consider, for example, whether you would rather live in the U.S., with its 26.4% mental illness rate or Nigeria with its 4.7% rate.

Finally, I might note that the site only dealt with certain disorders, specifically: anxiety, mood disorders (depression, etc.), impulse control problems (compulsive gambling, etc.) and substance abuse / dependency.

Had the study included the U.K., Eire and the Russian Republic, there probably would have been greater rates of alcoholism for the European nations, just as there would be greater rates or seasonal affective disorder had the Scandinavian countries been brought in.

Had dementias, such as Alzheimer's, been measured, higher rates would be found among developed countries across the board, since more people in those countries live to be old enough to suffer such disorders.

I submit to you, DOC, that mental illness rates vary from country to country based on an eclectic mix of geographical factors - alcoholism and seasonal affective disorder being higher in northern countries, situational problems - the study noted the stress of westernization and rampant unemployment in Ukrainia, an cultural factors: The conflicts between Christians, Muslims and Druze in Lebanon probably add to the mental illness rate in Lebanon.

 

[joobz]

Personal and societal sin could be a contributing factor to the causing of physical disorders. For example if highly processed foods are a sin and eating highly processed foods all of your life contribute to stroke or depression, then sin was the ultimate cause of those physical diseases.

If overworking your employees is a sin. Then the physical strokes which might have been caused by that overwork is related to sin even though it is physical in nature.

Leading risk factor for strokes is old age.
are you going to tell me that being old is a sin?

If the rich as a whole don't want to be fairly taxed, that could be a sin. This sin might cause less money to be placed where it is needed more and thus causing more stress on certain groups of people thus increasing the chances for mental illness in those groups. Thus sin indirectly caused some mental illness.

So mental illness in the poor is caused by the sins of the rich?
God, punishes poor people for other people's sins?


DOC, your world view is so bizarrely arbitrarily evil.


ETA:
DOC, The leading cause of vaginal prolapse(the vagina inverting out of the body) is multiple child births. Using your argument, "Being Fruitful and Multiplying" is a sin.

 

[zooterkin]

DOC, The leading cause of vaginal prolapse(the vagina inverting out of the body) is multiple child births. Using your argument, "Being Fruitful and Multiplying" is a sin.

So, a religion that, for the sake of argument, encourages large families by opposing the use of birth control could be viewed as encouraging sin?

 

[joobz]

So, a religion that, for the sake of argument, encourages large families by opposing the use of birth control could be viewed as encouraging sin?

If we accept DOC's argument for sin, then we MUST conclude it as such.

 

[Mojo]

If the rich as a whole don't want to be fairly taxed, that could be a sin. This sin might cause less money to be placed where it is needed more and thus causing more stress on certain groups of people thus increasing the chances for mental illness in those groups. Thus sin indirectly caused some mental illness.

Where does the "Religious Right" fit into this?

 

[Cainkane1]

Personal and societal sin could be a contributing factor to the causing of physical disorders. For example if highly processed foods are a sin and eating highly processed foods all of your life contribute to stroke or depression, then sin was the ultimate cause of those physical diseases.

If overworking your employees is a sin. Then the physical strokes which might have been caused by that overwork is related to sin even though it is physical in nature.

If the rich as a whole don't want to be fairly taxed, that could be a sin. This sin might cause less money to be placed where it is needed more and thus causing more stress on certain groups of people thus increasing the chances for mental illness in those groups. Thus sin indirectly caused some mental illness.

Most people I have been unfortunant to know who mistreat people such as their workers, wives a weaker student etc are smug and self satisfied with themselves. Often nothing happens to them or if it does the consequences are totally inadquate to the reprehensible acts they commit.

Sin is relative and non existent to an atheist. The people are exactly mentally ill they have just found out what they enjoy in life and they do it. This includes religous biggots who are the biggest offenders of all.

 

[X]

Personal and societal sin could be a contributing factor to the causing of physical disorders. For example if highly processed foods are a sin and eating highly processed foods all of your life contribute to stroke or depression, then sin was the ultimate cause of those physical diseases.

If overworking your employees is a sin. Then the physical strokes which might have been caused by that overwork is related to sin even though it is physical in nature.

If the rich as a whole don't want to be fairly taxed, that could be a sin. This sin might cause less money to be placed where it is needed more and thus causing more stress on certain groups of people thus increasing the chances for mental illness in those groups. Thus sin indirectly caused some mental illness.

That is a hell of a lot of unsupported supposition and conjecture.


Maybe we should define poor logic as a sin...

 

[edge]

Maybe by "sin" DOC means "reprehensible act". Underpaying employees and evading taxes do indeed fall into that category. But these things happen in the USA as well as, or even more than, in Europe. So it's still hard to make sense of DOC's argument.

Not from a believers point of view.

 

[AdMan]

Not from a believers point of view.

Even when the supposed "evidence" he uses to support his points has been proven wrong again and again?

Your belief blinds you to the truth.

 

[joobz]

Not from a believers point of view.

Edge,
Do you agree with DOC's argument that strokes are a result of sin?

 

[TimCallahan]

Personal and societal sin could be a contributing factor to the causing of physical disorders. For example if highly processed foods are a sin and eating highly processed foods all of your life contribute to stroke or depression, then sin was the ultimate cause of those physical diseases.
If overworking your employees is a sin. Then the physical strokes which might have been caused by that overwork is related to sin even though it is physical in nature.
If the rich as a whole don't want to be fairly taxed, that could be a sin. This sin might cause less money to be placed where it is needed more and thus causing more stress on certain groups of people thus increasing the chances for mental illness in those groups. Thus sin indirectly caused some mental illness.

Again, I was referring to mental illness rates in Europe, where they, arguably eat less processed food than we do. Also, working conditions in Europe are generally superior to those in the U.S., where trade unions have steadily been loosing ground for decades. Finally, disparities between the rich and the poor are far greater in the U.S. than in Europe.

Every one of your arguments fails when it comes to explaining levels of stroke and senile dementia in Europe. The one factor that would increase these two conditions in Europe is a larger percentage of old people in developed societies than in those that are underdeveloped. i.e. greater life expectancy.

 

[Sun Countess]

Personal and societal sin could be a contributing factor to the causing of physical disorders. For example if highly processed foods are a sin and eating highly processed foods all of your life contribute to stroke or depression, then sin was the ultimate cause of those physical diseases. If overworking your employees is a sin. Then the physical strokes which might have been caused by that overwork is related to sin even though it is physical in nature.

If the rich as a whole don't want to be fairly taxed, that could be a sin. This sin might cause less money to be placed where it is needed more and thus causing more stress on certain groups of people thus increasing the chances for mental illness in those groups. Thus sin indirectly caused some mental illness.

Sin is a completely made-up concept. And please stop using weasly words, such as "maybe" and "if." Stand up for what you believe in. Say it straight out. I get that you take your cues from your imaginary god who never says things directly, but sends very confusing signals, such as earthquakes and mental illness statistics that include insomnia so that his followers can mangle them, especially when they try to insert causations into any dubious correlations.

DOC, are you ever worried that the worst sin of all is reading messages into random and natural events? Or maybe it's placing the blame for all the world's ills on other people believing and behaving in ways that you don't like. You seem to hate the Muslims for demonizing women, yet you demonize women, Muslims, atheists, and people who practice voodoo.

Not from a believers point of view.

That's because it's easy to get believers to believe any ridiculous something as long as it fits into their worldview and doesn't inconvenience them too much. I don't see believers asking for their own rights to be stripped from them, or saying that earthquakes and mental illness are due to their own sinful lifestyles. Maybe if they stopped being so judgmental and got out of everybody else's business, we'd have fewer earthquakes and hurricanes.**



**Not that I believe this, but the believers should at least think about it if they didn't want to seem like raging hypocrites. Oh wait. I see where I made my mistake.