My thinking is that they don't normally need 12 officials to interview a witness. That is why it seems she was a suspect immediately. Did the defense ever question why they needed 12 interrogators for someone only considered a witness? Not allowing legal council should have led to dismissal of all charges IMO.
Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case
- Thread starter Chris_Halkides
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"precision and sourcing"
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Komponisto,
It's hard to believe but Skeptical Bystander posted this comment on her PMF site an hour ago...............
"You are welcome to read here and also to post here, but there is a certain flow to the conversation and I expect people who post here to respect it. We also expect a certain degree of precision and sourcing, especially from people who say they have just begun to follow the case. Your comment about maybe seeing a video that showed a bra clasp being passed around falls into the category of vague and unhelpful. You need to provide a source for that. Is it from the video of the crime scene processing that was provided by the police? I ask because I have seen the entire video and I don't recall that scene."
She don't recall that scene! Has she seen that video yet???????????????
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Komponisto,
It's hard to believe but Skeptical Bystander posted this comment on her PMF site an hour ago...............
"You are welcome to read here and also to post here, but there is a certain flow to the conversation and I expect people who post here to respect it. We also expect a certain degree of precision and sourcing, especially from people who say they have just begun to follow the case. Your comment about maybe seeing a video that showed a bra clasp being passed around falls into the category of vague and unhelpful. You need to provide a source for that. Is it from the video of the crime scene processing that was provided by the police? I ask because I have seen the entire video and I don't recall that scene."
She don't recall that scene! Has she seen that video yet???????????????
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Diocletus
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Is it possible that the cops just had him "confess" to what had actually happened the night before the murder, and then presented this to Knox in a way that suggested that they were referring to the night of the murder? That would be a pretty simple trick.
Superficially they both made statements that implicate them in the murder but the context and details of those statements are worlds apart. With RG's Skype call there was no coercion, he wasn't trapped in an interrogation room, he wasn't being yelled at for hours or being lied to like AK was, so why did RG tell the story he did?
Even if she were guilty AK's interrogation statements don't make any sense but with RG it is easy to see what he is doing. He knew the forensic evidence was going to place him at the scene being sexually intimate with MK so he made up a story that included those details but had someone else as the killer. AFAIK the only detail that RG ever changed with his story was originally AK wasn't there but later she was. So DNA evidence proving he was in the room doesn't really matter since he acknowledges that he was there.
So then one just needs to consider if his story is plausible or not:
1)RG says time of attack was 9:20, Ak and RS are alibied for that time.
2)RG says he was on date with MK and had already gotten to the point where they were about to have sex but didn't because there were no condoms:
_A)MK had a boyfriend and there is zero evidence of any prior romantic involvement between MK and RG.
_B)MK had spent the evening at friends house and there no mention of meeting RG later.
_C)MK got home around at about 9PM, meaning there was less then twenty minutes for RG to hook up with MK before he needed to use the toilet which is where he was sitting when he says the stabbing of MK happened.
_D)RG said they didn't have sex because of no condoms but supposedly MK was upset by Ak keeping condoms in the bathroom.
3)It took a while for MK to die, in RG's account he even tries to stop the bleeding with towels, so why not call an ambulance while she is bleeding out? Even if RG's version was true his actions after she was stabbed were criminal.
4)RGv2 makes a telling claim when he changes his story and says MK was mad at Ak for stealing her rent money. AK had more then $4000 in the bank and wealthy parents and a wealthy boyfriend, while RG was broke and needed money for rent and had committed multiple burglaries one of which was identical to the supposed stage break in and in another he pulled a knife when confronted by the homes occupant.
Bonus: so far Massei, Micheli, Mignini(x2)and Guede have never once agreed upon any key detail of why MK was killed except that somehow Ak and RS were involved somehow.
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LivingonaPrayer
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Especially when they are being paid OT for an overnight interrogation
RandyN
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Your thinking is exactly right Poppy. Again the defense dropped the ball here. 12 interrogators were scheduled for this obvious planed over night interrogation of the SUSPECT. What police force keeps 12 interrogators on call to work the night shift? This was scheduled, coordinated...it had to be. What with vacations, and families and schedules somehow Perugia police just happen to have 12 detectives available (some even from Rome). Add the fact that the leader Goebbi has always stated (even in court) that he ordered RS and AK to be brought in. He also stated in court that he heard Amanda scream from another room as he was in an office nearby. There is also the question of when Mignini showed up that night. I say he was there before 1:45...he talks of going to a quiet office to catch some sleep...
And finally AK and RS were not simply denied legal counsel that night but Mignini arranged it so that no lawyer could speak to either until the preliminary hearing several days later. RS lawyer practically tried to break down the jail door to see his client but was turned away on the orders of Mignini. This violation is another example of the abusive behavior used by an all powerful prosecutor. BTW...the first judge Claudia Matteini is a close family friend of Mignini. I’m certain Mignini was hoping for a confession during this period of solitary confinement...Matteini and Mignini should both be in a jail cell. Its so f'n unbelievable that pulp writers would turn down this story as unrealistic.
Darkness Descending is an ok guilty based book... you will learn about The Baron. I still say the absolute best guilt based book is the Massei report. When one considers that an actual judge wrote this novelette it simply leaves you speechless. I am certain this motivation report will be used for decades in law schools all over the world. As a finding of fact it is simply amazing to find words like "imagine", "in theory" "is compatible with"...another person who should be fired and fined for sheer stupidity.
I don’t trust Darkness Decending as a reference for anything. I still think the police were clueless until Guedes friends reported him. They spoke to Guede several days before the 18 or even the 16th. This story is leaked to allow the police to look less foolish...as if
There were 14 unknown fingerprints. They were indeed traced thru a national register but I don’t think they had a clue until a friend named Rudy Guede. Oh ...now we have the immigration card yes we see the prints...this was long past case closed! They weren’t looking...not until they were forced to. By Guedes friend.
LivingonaPrayer
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Maybe has not seen it or conveniently ignored the event happened
AmyStrange
Philosopher
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CuriOus,
I'm not saying it isn't impossible, but without the DNA and fingerprint evidence, than all you have is various circumstantial statements made by Guede that can be explained as proof of innocence as well as guilt like many of the accusations, gifts, emails, diaries, the recant, testimony in court etc. attributed to Amanda are defended and argued as evidence of guilt, but like I said that's just my opinion.
The DNA, fingerprints, skype call etc. etc. all together do make the evidence overwhelming that Rudy is indeed guilty, whereas the loss of the DNA evidence and Curatolo's testimony make it highly more probable they are innocent,
Dave
AmyStrange
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Well THAT explains why they couldn't afford to record the interrogation, the OT pay bankrupted them
Kaosium
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Rita Ficarra, Anna Domino, Monica Napoleoni and Zugarini went into court and lied through their teeth, telling a fantasy about coming across her doing CARTWHEELS. This was the beginning of the CARTWHEELS meme, started earlier in the day by the police chief who mentioned it to the press for the very first time, like they wanted to make sure everyone knew this diseased creature had done CARTWHEELS in their establishment!
Then they told her how naughty she was for not telling them she was stoned that night, (guessing they got that from Raffaele due to his condition that night--there might be some truth here) for doing CARTWHEELS and for being comforted by Raffaele with kisses (!!!) in the waiting area where she spent most her waking hours every day when they weren't questioning her. Then just off-handlike they mention Raffaele wasn't giving her an alibi, and casually helped themselves to her phone, just being considerate and all, idly passing the time. It just so happens the 'sent' message to Patrick comes up and Amanda just breaks down uncontrollably with some idiot line like 'It's him! He killed her! He's a meanie!' Something like that, a definite positive declaration which for some reason they must have forgotten to put in the statements she signed. They never forgot that she accused an INNOCENT MAN (!!!) though.
Then they serve her sweeties and tea all night long to comfort her while they makes sure everything is done by the book, except the part about taping, they were so concerned over her welfare they forgot that part, shouldn't we forgive them this minor oversight while they look after the crazed CARTWHEELS queen? Hours pass as the translator is summoned, they wouldn't want to miss one word of the giggly girl-talk they engage in as they make sure every comfort is provided this poor deranged creature. Hours more pass, perhaps more CARTWHEELS are performed, they don't really say. They don't say much of anything that happened over the seven hour period from when Raffaele signed his statement and they firmly confronted her on her aberrant behavior, especially the CARTWHEELS which so alarmed and amazed them.
They do make sure everyone knows they'd never even heard of Patrick in the context of this case, they were just absolutely astonished when she broke down and told them in no uncertain terms that he was the murderer! So amazed they were, as noted before, they just completely forgot to put that part in the statements they drew up for her. They decided to go with 'vaguely' and how scared she was of this entirely INNOCENT MAN (!!!)she'd so viciously ACCUSED, and they were 'shocked...shocked!' that his name even came up! Obviously when gymnastics girl stops doing CARTWHEELS long enough to say someone they had no reason at all to suspect of the murder and makes a vicious accusation like that of an INNOCENT MAN (!!!) they first serve her pastries all night, with plenty of tea, and slowly do nothing else but write up a couple statements that they just plum forgot to include the actual part where she was CERTAIN (!!!) about it and convinced them so.
Obviously this explains why they sent seven squad cars out, hauled Patrick out of his home where he was feeding his baby to the tune of delightful racial epitaphs, a few fists on occasion, and spent all day interrogating him without a lawyer or cameras. Then they'd pack him, Raffaele and Amanda (who gives Zugarini a kiss she's so pleased at her humane treatment!) up and parade through town with sirens blazing and lights flashing like they captured a mastermind mafia don, and announce 'cased closed' as this was all the proof they needed! If anything went wrong here it as her fault for doing so many CARTWHEELS, and these poor women police officers who just wanted a nice chick chat to comfort her because they were concerned for her welfare as they saw her doing CARTWHEELS and were just curious about why Raffaele would say something so silly as she didn't have an alibi anymore. They had to make sure she didn't leave, just in case of course, but they never imagined their little chick chat would go from talking aboutCARTWHEELS to a an ACCUSATION of an INNOCENT MAN (!!!) they were just ladies gabbing away!
If you can't guess, the theme for the day was CARTWHEELS and how just out of the blue she accused an INNOCENT MAN (!!!) and they had nothing to do with it, of course. Just three officers and a translator helping prepare her accusation of an INNOCENT MAN. (!!!) When they were done Amanda walked up and politely said something to the effect she was sorry to hear them say it, as none of it was true.
Later on during the trial, ~a month later Edgardo Giobbi, the SCO officer from Rome who was running the interrogation from the control room, would come in an say he was 'mathematically certain' he'd ordered them to come in so he could study their behavior, which would be what he said a couple months after the arrest, he gave specific detailed reasons as well. He also said he heard Amanda scream, and that the reasons he was suspicious of her involved hip-wiggling, breaking down in tears unexpectedly after the murder, and her going to eat pizza with Raffaele when naturally she should be laying in bed bawling her eyes out, mere yards away where her new friend had been murdered.
If you go looking for information about what the cops testified to regarding the interrogation you find mostly the press wanted to talk about cartwheels, which is what each and every police officer testified to at some point regarding the interrogation and what it seemed they really wanted to talk about. Oh, they wanted to make sure everyone knew they didn't have anything to do with the arrest of Patrick, it was her doing absolutely and totally, how could they possibly be responsible for arresting a man if a girl has done cartwheels before them? With the other lies they told I can't say I blame them.
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Bruce Fischer
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I am amazed at how many lies Peggy Ganong can fit into one blog post.
http://pganong.blogspot.com/2011/09/will-knox-walk.html
I wont take the time to highlight all of the lies as they are not hard to find. I will say that her current story about being stalked is a complete fabrication. I am now convinced that Ganong is a compulsive liar.
PR supertanker is paying all of us! Peggy is the real victim! It's all about the Kerchers(but wait, I thought it was about Peggy).
Peter Quennell recently said that he knew where I lived and he was gong to bury me. I never heard Peggy denounce the threat made by her good friend. She has mentioned the 2nd amendment comment made on Perugia Shock dozens of times since it happened. I have never seen someone so happy to be stalked or threatened. Maybe it's because no one is really stalking her, no one is threatening her, no one is doing drive-bys (except for Peggy when she drove by Amanda's parents house and counted their shrubs). She makes it all up as she goes along, just so the light is always shining on her. I wonder why she threw Michael out of her group. I imagine she wanted all of the attention, just a guess.
When Peggy says that journalists have been threatened she fails to mention that Barbie Nadeau recently claimed that she was threatened because she was providing positive coverage for Amanda. What side do you think those threats came from?
Peggy recently said that several people in FOA have told her that I do not speak for FOA. This is also a complete lie. I know that one person told her this. One person, not several. Of course Peggy can't miss an opportunity to lie. The truth is that I don't speak for FOA and the comment was made to her speaking in legal terms. Peggy was simply trying exaggerate the situation as usual.
According to Ganong, I am the one that is shrill and slightly deranged. She repeatedly claims that I have libeled her. I am still waiting to see proof that I have ever libeled her in anyway. She will never provide that proof because she knows I have told the truth about her and her followers.
Does she need to be reminded about how many times her group has libeled good people like Steve Moore and Candace Dempsey? There are many more examples of course, but Ganong seems incapable of seeing what her group is really all about. Even though she posted a photo of the Kerchers on her blog, her site (PMF) has little to do with the Kerchers. In reality, its not all about Meredith.
http://pganong.blogspot.com/2011/09/will-knox-walk.html
I wont take the time to highlight all of the lies as they are not hard to find. I will say that her current story about being stalked is a complete fabrication. I am now convinced that Ganong is a compulsive liar.
PR supertanker is paying all of us! Peggy is the real victim! It's all about the Kerchers(but wait, I thought it was about Peggy).
Peter Quennell recently said that he knew where I lived and he was gong to bury me. I never heard Peggy denounce the threat made by her good friend. She has mentioned the 2nd amendment comment made on Perugia Shock dozens of times since it happened. I have never seen someone so happy to be stalked or threatened. Maybe it's because no one is really stalking her, no one is threatening her, no one is doing drive-bys (except for Peggy when she drove by Amanda's parents house and counted their shrubs). She makes it all up as she goes along, just so the light is always shining on her. I wonder why she threw Michael out of her group. I imagine she wanted all of the attention, just a guess.
When Peggy says that journalists have been threatened she fails to mention that Barbie Nadeau recently claimed that she was threatened because she was providing positive coverage for Amanda. What side do you think those threats came from?
Peggy recently said that several people in FOA have told her that I do not speak for FOA. This is also a complete lie. I know that one person told her this. One person, not several. Of course Peggy can't miss an opportunity to lie. The truth is that I don't speak for FOA and the comment was made to her speaking in legal terms. Peggy was simply trying exaggerate the situation as usual.
According to Ganong, I am the one that is shrill and slightly deranged. She repeatedly claims that I have libeled her. I am still waiting to see proof that I have ever libeled her in anyway. She will never provide that proof because she knows I have told the truth about her and her followers.
Does she need to be reminded about how many times her group has libeled good people like Steve Moore and Candace Dempsey? There are many more examples of course, but Ganong seems incapable of seeing what her group is really all about. Even though she posted a photo of the Kerchers on her blog, her site (PMF) has little to do with the Kerchers. In reality, its not all about Meredith.
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Darth Rotor
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Do you ever read what you post?
What? Who is the corpse here?
Regardless of who killed her, that corpse was once a living and breathing young lady named Meredith. You have any friends named Meredith?Darth Rotor
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What's a Knox thread without a nice cartwheel reference?
Bruce Fischer
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Do you ever read what you post?
What? Who is the corpse here?
I read everything I post. That's why you will see every post edited. I always miss something.
If you read my post you will see that the comment you have pulled out of my post was referring to Perugia Murder File, not Meredith Kercher. They claim PMF is all about Meredith but that is not the case. Sorry if I confused you.
PhantomWolf
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I think that there was more to it than that too. I think that by the time they had Amanda in the interview room they had the murder solved in their own heads. They knew that Amanda had a black boss who she'd met eariler that day, they knew about the text messages sent before the murder, they knew that Patrick's phone had apparently been in the area of the cottage on the night of the murder, they had a black man approaching the cottage on CCTV just before the murder and they had what they believed was Amanda approaching the cottage shortly after. Add that to Amanda's suspect behaviour and Raffaele's "lie" about calling the police first and it was a slam dunk, all they needed was confirmation.
I also doubt that it went quite as some people have represented it here, in the three or four questions before she cracks, but rather over the period of 2-3 hours they would have repeatedly told her the evidence they had and continually interrupted her denials, suggesting that she was lying to them or misremembering and that the evidence they had proved that she wasn't telling the truth, that they could place her there, they could place Patrick there, that they have her text to him showing that they met up, and that Raffaele now says she wasn't at his place as well. That combined with a few whaps on the head to get her to "remember right" and the suggestion that she could have blocked it out and that she should try to imagine what had happened to remember it, possibly adding an inducement that if she remembered she would be able to go home, and you have a perfect storm for a false memory to establish itself. I don't think the cops deliberately did it in order to create a false memory, I just think they didn't know any better. These techniques are almost textbook on what not to do in an interrogation these days.
In the end to me this is the only thing that makes any sense about that night. The cops story of that night just doesn't add up. There is no way you bring in 12 officers for a nice little discussion at 10pm at night, and you certainly don't rush off and arrest someone on the basis of what Amanda said, not unless you think you have evidence that backs up her statements enough to put before a judge. Their own actions make it quite clear that they *knew* they had the evidence they needed to arrest at least Amanda and Patrick even without her statement. But by getting her to break and tell them what they wanted to hear, they then had their confirmation and acted on it. Nothing else makes the least bit of sense.
Kaosium
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Do you ever read what you post?
What? Who is the corpse here?
To offer some context, basically the only ones who know anything about the case that still think she's guilty populate a messageboard run by a loony-tune that in even describing one ends up sounding weird. She also has a way of getting to some people, e-mail bombardments of employers is one way, another is to simply exaggerate or outright lie about...everything.
She was never threatened, she was never stalked. If you're really interested I'll post the 'threat' made on a board she claims not to have read for years. It amounts to a (albeit poorly written) suggestion that her neighbors ought to be able to defend themselves from her as she's so loony she might not listen to anything else. It works to gain sympathy with some people.
Her being 'stalked' is that she happened to be at the same function as someone involved in the case and was videotaping the event for the people involved. However if this is said, some will believe it and think whatever 'methods' they take are justified. See how that works?
She coordinates smear campaigns and then claims she's being 'libeled' when people point it out. Her site has actually gotten media attention, believe it or not, it's kind of gone to their heads. Some people find that their claim that it's all for the good of the victim, Meredith Kercher, rather ridiculous at this point. That might have been what you misunderstood.
Incidentally, I'll lay odds of 3:1 on Amanda and Raffaele being acquitted of murder for as much as you like, payable to JREF.
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