Being transgender is hard

[sarge]

Where does such hatred come from, that an adult picks on a child who is "different" ?

I agree.

I am not in complete agreement with the notion that someone is female so long as they still posses male genitalia, and would certainly support restricting bathrooms in public schools based on biological gender, but I don't get why an adult with no responsibilities for a child would choose to be cruel to a child, especially one already in such dire straits.

 

[Aepervius]

Can't say much beside you have my moral support, however worthless it is from an anonymous guy on the Net.

Just a remark, though:

- came out to wife about being tg, marriage destroyed, family estranged*

Family estranged sucks, I remember a TG woman which had the same, wife divorced, and got a court order to forbid her to see the children. That is quite mean and that is an understatement. The wive should not take make the children to chose or even force them on a side. (for those in the know, it was somebody on the "ultima board" (as in ultima the game).

On the other hands you can't expect the wife to react with a smile and a pat in the back, thus a pretty immediate (and probably heated) divorce.

 

[Aepervius]

Where does such hatred come from, that an adult picks on a child who is "different" ?

Is it fear that society will break down if we allow the same rights to everyone regardless of skin colour, sexuality or creed?

My two cents : in a way children of that age are not yet so "sexualised", I had friend of both gender, and it did not matter. It is later that it starts to be different. So for children, maybe a bit of teasing , but my gut feeling it would be probably limited. OTOH adult come with a lot of sexual baggage, and are more prone to express judgement related to that.

By the way I would say it is the same for skin color, or religion. We were not caring much abut those at that age as far as I naively recall, it started to pick up a few year later. By ~14 about I can remember clan/clique separation based on skin color.

Interrestingly since skin color was never a factor to me, I was a pariah to nearly all clique for a year or two, until high school.

 

[Gazpacho]

I, on the contrary, imagine that gender change leads to a decrease in personal happiness in the long term, compared to just getting their head right and living as who they biologically are*.

Count yourself lucky that you have to imagine. Reassignment surgery is a barbaric "cure", but in the present social context it improves the happiness and life expectancy of gender dysmorphia patients. It's a clinically effective treatment.

 

[Dessi]

I, on the contrary, imagine that gender change leads to a decrease in personal happiness in the long term, compared to just getting their head right and living as who they biologically are*.

(* biologically obscure gender cases are not included in the statement)

Edited by Cleon: 

Breach of membership agreement removed.

Integrating into one's target gender is the only cure for gender dysphoria.

Not everyone has the financial means to do so, and around 40% of people who don't attempt suicide at least once in their lives. Telling a person to "man up" or "get your head on right" is beyond offensive. Why you would even think that's an appropriate response is beyond me.

 

[SumDood]

Her mother, who said the child had shown signs of being transgender at two...

Two? Seriously? Any idea what those signs were?

I'm pretty darn liberal on this subject, and if either one of my boys wanted to grow up and get a sex change, or be gay, or just about anything (except a Rebublican ), as long as they were happy and didn't hurt anyone, I'd be fine with it and support them 100%. BUT, my oldest is 9 and there is no way he is anywhere even close to being mature enough to understand the depth of transgender issues, let alone be able to make informed decisions. I don't want to belittle anyone's pain or trivialize anyone's struggles, but 10 seems WAY too young for someone to go through this.

People have a right to raise their children how they want, as long as no harm is done. I can't help but think that this child probably received a bit of 'prodding' in this direction. "Oh, you like to wear women's shoes? Maybe you have 'Gender Dysphoria'" When I would have said "that's cute, but i'm not buying you your own women's shoes." Maybe that's wrong of me and maybe its wrong of society, but I think we're a long way off from a man showing up in drag to a job interview. I'm VERY uncomfortable comparing this child's gender issue with child abuse, but I think if we are going to have an intelligent discussion, we have to look at what harm this is doing to the child.

I'm sorry if i'm coming off as a douche, but I'm very sensitive when it comes to children.

 

[Gazpacho]

Two? Seriously? Any idea what those signs were?

Aversion to gendered clothing and attempts at self-mutilation can occur at that age.

No, it isn't "liberal upbringing", it isn't "recruitment", etc. There are stories a-plenty of parents trying for years to suppress their child's transgender expressions before finally giving in.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Two? Seriously? Any idea what those signs were?

I'm pretty darn liberal on this subject, and if either one of my boys wanted to grow up and get a sex change, or be gay, or just about anything (except a Rebublican ), as long as they were happy and didn't hurt anyone, I'd be fine with it and support them 100%. BUT, my oldest is 9 and there is no way he is anywhere even close to being mature enough to understand the depth of transgender issues, let alone be able to make informed decisions. I don't want to belittle anyone's pain or trivialize anyone's struggles, but 10 seems WAY too young for someone to go through this.

People have a right to raise their children how they want, as long as no harm is done. I can't help but think that this child probably received a bit of 'prodding' in this direction. "Oh, you like to wear women's shoes? Maybe you have 'Gender Dysphoria'" When I would have said "that's cute, but i'm not buying you your own women's shoes." Maybe that's wrong of me and maybe its wrong of society, but I think we're a long way off from a man showing up in drag to a job interview. I'm VERY uncomfortable comparing this child's gender issue with child abuse, but I think if we are going to have an intelligent discussion, we have to look at what harm this is doing to the child.

I'm sorry if i'm coming off as a douche, but I'm very sensitive when it comes to children.

I have to disagree. From my own experience I can say that a child can know that they are the wrong sex by 5 or 6, and be displaying the signs too, and it goes beyond just wearing women's shoes. For those that really are transgender, I believe that prior to puberty is far better to do it that after, because it allowed the body to shape naturally, rather than having to go through expensive and painful surgery, that might or might not work as desired. It also prevents basically having to go puberty a second time, or simply having enough body changes once through puberty that once in adulthood corrective sugery is pointless because it won't achieve what you want.

I wish that I had had parents that understood and that I'd been more knowledgable about what it was I was going through, I'd have been able to be the person I want to be instead of being forced to live as someone I'm not.

 

[Dessi]

I am not in complete agreement with the notion that someone is female so long as they still posses male genitalia, and would certainly support restricting bathrooms in public schools based on biological gender

Be careful with that line of thought, its equivalent to involuntarily outing a little girl everytime she goes to the bathroom. Seems pointless and needlessly cruel on a very very personal level.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I, on the contrary, imagine that gender change leads to a decrease in personal happiness in the long term, compared to just getting their head right and living as who they biologically are*.

(* biologically obscure gender cases are not included in the statement)

Seriously you need to get over yourself, it's never a case of "Getting your head right and living as who they biologically are." Living with a nagging feel that you are wrong, and hating your body because of it is not something you can just will away or go to see a shrink about. It is part of who you biologically are.

 

[Tatyana]

It must be a lot easier to make the transition as a child. I gather it's extremely difficult (if not impossible) to persuade doctors in Britain to agree to this, though. Or at least, it was the last time I watched a documentary about it. The idea seemed to be that a child may just be going through a rebellious phase, and must go through puberty and become an adult in his or her biological sex before anything will be considered.

Rolfe.

I think it is becoming quite common to prescribe a drug that will suppress puberty so the child has time to choose their gender when they are older.

It is the same treatment for children with precocious puberty.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

I think it is becoming quite common to prescribe a drug that will suppress puberty so the child has time to choose their gender when they are older.

It is the same treatment for children with precocious puberty.

When I was precocious I was placed in a burlap sack and beaten with reeds. Pretty standard, really.

 

[Alt+F4]

I think it is becoming quite common to prescribe a drug that will suppress puberty so the child has time to choose their gender when they are older.

I wonder if this really helps, it just causes the child to remain in puberty while the other kids develop facial hair or boobs.

 

[Alt+F4]

Count yourself lucky that you have to imagine. Reassignment surgery is a barbaric "cure", but in the present social context it improves the happiness and life expectancy of gender dysmorphia patients. It's a clinically effective treatment.

It is quite barbaric and probably will be for a long time, especially for FtM trans people. There is no surgery out there currently that can make a naturally-looking functioning penis. This is why most FtM trans people don't do "bottom surgery".

 

[Alt+F4]

Two? Seriously? Any idea what those signs were?

I'm pretty darn liberal on this subject, and if either one of my boys wanted to grow up and get a sex change, or be gay, or just about anything (except a Rebublican ), as long as they were happy and didn't hurt anyone, I'd be fine with it and support them 100%. BUT, my oldest is 9 and there is no way he is anywhere even close to being mature enough to understand the depth of transgender issues, let alone be able to make informed decisions. I don't want to belittle anyone's pain or trivialize anyone's struggles, but 10 seems WAY too young for someone to go through this.

People have a right to raise their children how they want, as long as no harm is done. I can't help but think that this child probably received a bit of 'prodding' in this direction. "Oh, you like to wear women's shoes? Maybe you have 'Gender Dysphoria'" When I would have said "that's cute, but i'm not buying you your own women's shoes." Maybe that's wrong of me and maybe its wrong of society, but I think we're a long way off from a man showing up in drag to a job interview. I'm VERY uncomfortable comparing this child's gender issue with child abuse, but I think if we are going to have an intelligent discussion, we have to look at what harm this is doing to the child.

I'm sorry if i'm coming off as a douche, but I'm very sensitive when it comes to children.

I don't think you're coming off as a douche at all. I was a very tomboyish girl. I kept my hair short, wore boys clothes and while my sister had Barbie (with Malibu Dream House) I had G.I. Joe (with Kung Fu grip). This was in the late 1960s/early 1970s and my parents were definitely not liberal (they just ignored it). I turned out gay, not trans. I wonder if with different parents growing up today where my childhood playing would have lead to. I agree, 10 is too young for a child to make up their mind about this.

 

[Weak Kitten]

I remember a couple of years ago a friend who I hadn't seen for several years showed up at an after party for conference we both volunteered at. He (now she) was terrified of how all the other volunteers (also friends of hers) would react to the choice. I gave her a huge hug and told her how envious I was of her good looks (other than being really tall she was quite attractive and had amazing legs).

Anyway, I found that the only really awkward thing for me was remembering whether I should use male or female pronouns. What with all the lifestyle choices there are out there it can be really confusing remembering which ones you should use. We really need a non-insulting gender neutral pronoun.

 

[Alt+F4]

I've always been curious as to the concept of what being a man or a woman means. If a man gets his penis shot off in a war, is he no longer a man? Of course not. If a trans woman gets her penis turned inside out and turned into something that's not a vagina, is she a woman? I don't think so.

Or, is the concept of being a man or a woman not involved with what genitals we have but rather something totally psychological? That doesn't make sense for me either. I could never understand when a trans woman would say, "I was born in the wrong body, I'm a woman". What do they think that "being a woman" means? A vagina, boobs, high heels, dresses? Or is being a woman or a man nothing other than a societal construct?

 

[tyr_13]

I've always been curious as to the concept of what being a man or a woman means. If a man gets his penis shot off in a war, is he no longer a man? Of course not. If a trans woman gets her penis turned inside out and turned into something that's not a vagina, is she a woman? I don't think so.

Or, is the concept of being a man or a woman not involved with what genitals we have but rather something totally psychological? That doesn't make sense for me either. I could never understand when a trans woman would say, "I was born in the wrong body, I'm a woman". What do they think that "being a woman" means? A vagina, boobs, high heels, dresses? Or is being a woman or a man nothing other than a societal construct?

These are important questions. In answering these, people often come to odds, and things get heated. But we should remember that answering the questions differently, and assigning different importance to them, is somewhat personal.

To that list of questions I'd add, what does it mean to exist as man or as a woman? This is slightly different from what is a man or woman. What are the expectations and effects of 'being' one or the other? What goals does one wanting gender reassignment wish to achieve? Is actual reassignment needed? If it is seen as needed, will it achieve the goal anyway?

 

[PhantomWolf]

These are important questions. In answering these, people often come to odds, and things get heated. But we should remember that answering the questions differently, and assigning different importance to them, is somewhat personal.

This is because most people don't stop to realise that what is happening inside their head isn't the same as what is happening inside someone else's head. Judging everyone else by your experience in your head and assuming they work in the same way leads to not being willing to listen to how others really work.

To that list of questions I'd add, what does it mean to exist as man or as a woman? This is slightly different from what is a man or woman. What are the expectations and effects of 'being' one or the other? What goals does one wanting gender reassignment wish to achieve? Is actual reassignment needed? If it is seen as needed, will it achieve the goal anyway?

Coming from someone that has a very good understanding of the situation, then there are goals about it, and reassignment does solve them. Reassignment is not something one does lighty, or just because they like cross-dressing. It's a solution for a person that *knows* they are in the wrong sexed body. It's hard to explain how and why you know, it just is.

 

[tyr_13]

This is because most people don't stop to realise that what is happening inside their head isn't the same as what is happening inside someone else's head. Judging everyone else by your experience in your head and assuming they work in the same way leads to not being willing to listen to how others really work.



Coming from someone that has a very good understanding of the situation, then there are goals about it, and reassignment does solve them. Reassignment is not something one does lighty, or just because they like cross-dressing. It's a solution for a person that *knows* they are in the wrong sexed body. It's hard to explain how and why you know, it just is.

Many of those questions are societal questions. What is going on in any one given person's head isn't especially relevant to those ones.

I also reject the idea that someone can't come to those answers unwisely. People make major life choices on wrong motivations all the time, so I doubt that reassignment is immune. I'm not saying it happens in every case, or even that it happens to any great degree. I'm not arguing against reassignments in general either.