Quite.
Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case
- Thread starter Chris_Halkides
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Certainly it works if you assume guilt. For some arguments you assume guilt, for some you assume innocence, for some you assume nothing. If you insist on carrying your own pet assumptions into other peoples words I'm not remotely surprised that they make no sense. I don't go around scratching my head assuming that Amanda being guilty is an assumption in all of your statements. Stilcho makes it clear that his statement is based on an assumption of guilt, I see no problem with that.
RoseMontague
Published Author
You went back to PMF for the answer to your question and now you admit the answer you got is because they assume guilt. Then you brought the answer back here and expected us to see it the same way. Maybe I am not understanding your post but this is how it appears to me. Just sayin'.
Well for one thing Stilcho said that he thought Amanda should have shut the hell up and not even written the gift. For another it is possible for people to use the verb "to know" in two different ways in one lifetime. If stilcho feels he knows that she is guilty, fine, it's the same kind of knowing that innocent Amanda has that Patrick is innocent. You don't think that because Stilcho claims to know she is guilty that he was present during the crime do you? Why not? How can he claim to know this if he wasn't? Stilcho knows [weak form] that Amanda knew [strong form] Patrick was innocent. A strong form of Amanda saying that Patrick is innocent is to all intents and purposes admitting to her own involvement in the crime. A weak form is her admitting to knowing nothing about his involvement one way or the other.
Why I am I having to explain this?
No because it would be stupid to ask her to say that she knew for a fact that he was innocent, while denying having any way to know for a fact that he was innocent.
RoseMontague
Published Author
Thanks for confirming that PMF wants her to proclaim Patrick's innocence at the same time denying having anything to do with the murder.
Mary_H
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That is exactly why pro-innocence posters have always thought it was stupid and unreasonable for anyone to expect Amanda to say she knew Patrick was innocent.
Matthew Best
Penultimate Amazing
You seem to be concluding that nobody at PMF can possibly say anything stupid.
I would tend to disagree.
Mary_H
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You do know that Amanda did this, don't you?
Man, I feel like swearing here. OK.
This came up because it was said that pro-guilt posters perennially demanded Knox assert as an absolute fact that Patrick was innocent. This was attacked as ridiculous because Knox couldn't do so without implicating herself. I said that that isn't what pro-guilt posters mean.
Thoughtful and Fiona have both said that they mean it in the way I described. Stilcho said that he believed she did KNOW that Patrick was innocent. Whether or not one believes she is guilty and hence KNEW Patrick was innocent is a separate question though.
Look. If Amanda is innocent, they believe, and indeed I believe, that she KNEW [weak form] that Patrick was innocent prior to him actually being vindicated and released. She only ever asserted this weak KNOWING tentatively.
If Amanda is guilty then she KNEW [strong form] that Patrick was innocent prior to him actually being vindicated and released. While her conscious must in this case be fairly over loaded in this case, trying to pin your murder on someone else isn't very nice.
Do you mean the rambling letter where she definitively explains that it's possible that she might remember Patrick killing Meredith, but she thinks it's very likely that she doesn't.
Matthew Best
Penultimate Amazing
Er, because it's obvious?
I mean, given that the point is obvious, why are you "explaining" it?
Only if they're borderline autistic would they be unable to step outside their own world view sufficiently to understand statements made from different sets of assumptions. I tend to prefer the explanation that they like to take the piss and attack straw man versions of their enemies positions.
Fine, if we both agree that what Stilcho said was perfectly reasonable given the assumptions that he explicitly makes there's nothing to talk about.
Mary_H
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So you agree she sounds very confused in the letter. Would you arrest someone for first-degree murder without investigation, based only on a confused, rambling letter written by a young suspect whose story has changed twice in the last 12 hours?
It is not accurate to say that Amanda only tentatively claimed that she could not be relied on to accuse Patrick. First, there was her statement, which clearly shows her withdrawing her knowledge of the crime. Then, there is the recording of her telling her mother than she couldn't accuse Patrick because she wasn't there. Her mother gave the story to the press, and they printed it. Not only that, the police had the story because they were listening in. Her lawyers had the story, too.
There is also the fact that she simply stopped accusing Patrick of the crime once she was in a jail cell.
Matthew Best
Penultimate Amazing
Why don't you take your own advice and refrain from *********** about? Pretending that we agree is silly and childish. How you can complain about such behaviour in others when indulging in it yourself is somewhat surprising.
They didn't did they? It was the interrogation that did it. After that they had the thing to mignini and then the rambling letter, plus a few odds and sods.
Well, for one thing she didn't know it was recorded, did she? For another, is that the only reading of the recording. My recollection is that the police and PMF have a different reading. Is this the "I was there. I can't lie about it." line, or something else?
That may very well be, but this is claiming she did assert Patricks innocence rather than claiming that it was impossible for her to do so.
RoseMontague
Published Author
How would she know that Patrick was innocent if she was not there?
We can go around again on this or you can agree with your own arguments that she could not know this if she was not there. Quite simply, they make this out to be horrible that Amanda did not proclaim his innocence even if she could not possibly know this. What she did do was to cast a whole lot of doubt on her own statements. The fact that the cops ignored this because it didn't fit their version is typical of the entire case.
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JREF2010
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the PG hate group slanders and lies again......
http://www.westseattleherald.com/2011/09/11/news/update-amanda-knox-will-be-freed-says-italian-pro
>They pointed out that it is illegal in Italy for their daughter, who is convicted of murder, to speak to any media unless, and until, she is freed. She has not yet spoken to any press at any time.>
I didnt know Amanda speaking to the media was a crime, in Italy, per this article. So it seems one of the PG, Hate Group members is trying to cause trouble by lying again and propping a fake interview to the media could cause more damage.
The Thanksgiving article is put to the press, obviously not by those who support Amanda and by someone aware it is illegal, I will assume.
So who is the scum, the source of the subsidiary Hate Monger Organization of the PG Inc.?
Who would benefit?
Would the Prosecution/Police stoop so low as to lie, and break the law, and even go so far as to put them self in danger of having charges pressed against them if they are found out.
The MO seems similar to the group that leaked the sex list,....... hmmm?
Access to prison. Access to the media. Aware of the false accusation/false story causing damage to Amanda specifically, not Raffaele. A little anti-Americanism? or just hate for Amanda.
Its also not something, one person alone has done. This is an organized attack of dishonest people, scum against Amanda.
Is it the same party who leaked the sex list?
Most likely. Seems very similar, almost too simialr to not be the same group of lying hater's.
It seems the same "format" same MO of the criminal. Lie+leak to Media= cause Amanda damage, not Raffaele.
And these lying Haters, are really criminals working in police uniforms most likely. People who hate and break the law to "win", wear all kinds of uniforms.
They seem to have access to orchestrate a sex list, false HIV/AIDS test and then leak things to the media.
Someone from the Hate group, who are dishonest and cowardly most likely orchestrated and leaked, the sex list and this failed lie.
My bet is.....Someone from Perugia and closely associated with this trial.
Did they accomplish the damage they seeked to cause?
At this point in the witch hunt, I think it back fired this time. The people aware of this case are more informed. And to someone in the US this interview would be considered nothing. Who wouldnt want to eat Thanksgiving turkey at home. No one from the US therefore woul waste their time on a slanderous article based around eating a dinner at a holiday of Thanksgiving.
Whoever did this is very unfamilair with the US culture.
So this leads me to believe, the Hate Group that bear the article wanted to create damage to Amanda, and this article would only be shocking to those in Italy. Where I believe the Hate Group who has connections to attempt damage, through the media would reside.
It shows someone with power and connections to the media, obviously Anti-Amanda supporters, have a deep bias of hate and will do anything, even break the law to do harm to Amanda. And highly likely haters of the US, as they reserve slander against Raffaele an Italian.
I hope Frank or someone investigates it to the source, maybe some law firm could unveil this Hate Group, who have ability to get the lies and dishonesty of the PG to be printed by the media.
A common denominator would be likely found with the sex list and this media lie too. A list of names and media contacts would not be something the CIA couldn't find in a week, but for a journalist-reporter a very large task.
The Hate Group, subsidiary of PG Inc. are desperate, maybe only 14 days or so left. Then they can go arrest someone else, they can beat up Frank, or maybe arrest C&V, or maybe Girgha can be banned and burned at the stake by the Migninin, Maresca, Commodi fans, Monica Napoleoni and Steffanoni can help support their fantasy....and Edgardo Giobbi can have more pictures on his Wall of Shame before the trial starts.
http://www.westseattleherald.com/2011/09/11/news/update-amanda-knox-will-be-freed-says-italian-pro
>They pointed out that it is illegal in Italy for their daughter, who is convicted of murder, to speak to any media unless, and until, she is freed. She has not yet spoken to any press at any time.>
I didnt know Amanda speaking to the media was a crime, in Italy, per this article. So it seems one of the PG, Hate Group members is trying to cause trouble by lying again and propping a fake interview to the media could cause more damage.
The Thanksgiving article is put to the press, obviously not by those who support Amanda and by someone aware it is illegal, I will assume.
So who is the scum, the source of the subsidiary Hate Monger Organization of the PG Inc.?
Who would benefit?
Would the Prosecution/Police stoop so low as to lie, and break the law, and even go so far as to put them self in danger of having charges pressed against them if they are found out.
The MO seems similar to the group that leaked the sex list,....... hmmm?
Access to prison. Access to the media. Aware of the false accusation/false story causing damage to Amanda specifically, not Raffaele. A little anti-Americanism? or just hate for Amanda.
Its also not something, one person alone has done. This is an organized attack of dishonest people, scum against Amanda.
Is it the same party who leaked the sex list?
Most likely. Seems very similar, almost too simialr to not be the same group of lying hater's.
It seems the same "format" same MO of the criminal. Lie+leak to Media= cause Amanda damage, not Raffaele.
And these lying Haters, are really criminals working in police uniforms most likely. People who hate and break the law to "win", wear all kinds of uniforms.
They seem to have access to orchestrate a sex list, false HIV/AIDS test and then leak things to the media.
Someone from the Hate group, who are dishonest and cowardly most likely orchestrated and leaked, the sex list and this failed lie.
My bet is.....Someone from Perugia and closely associated with this trial.
Did they accomplish the damage they seeked to cause?
At this point in the witch hunt, I think it back fired this time. The people aware of this case are more informed. And to someone in the US this interview would be considered nothing. Who wouldnt want to eat Thanksgiving turkey at home. No one from the US therefore woul waste their time on a slanderous article based around eating a dinner at a holiday of Thanksgiving.
Whoever did this is very unfamilair with the US culture.
So this leads me to believe, the Hate Group that bear the article wanted to create damage to Amanda, and this article would only be shocking to those in Italy. Where I believe the Hate Group who has connections to attempt damage, through the media would reside.
It shows someone with power and connections to the media, obviously Anti-Amanda supporters, have a deep bias of hate and will do anything, even break the law to do harm to Amanda. And highly likely haters of the US, as they reserve slander against Raffaele an Italian.
I hope Frank or someone investigates it to the source, maybe some law firm could unveil this Hate Group, who have ability to get the lies and dishonesty of the PG to be printed by the media.
A common denominator would be likely found with the sex list and this media lie too. A list of names and media contacts would not be something the CIA couldn't find in a week, but for a journalist-reporter a very large task.
The Hate Group, subsidiary of PG Inc. are desperate, maybe only 14 days or so left. Then they can go arrest someone else, they can beat up Frank, or maybe arrest C&V, or maybe Girgha can be banned and burned at the stake by the Migninin, Maresca, Commodi fans, Monica Napoleoni and Steffanoni can help support their fantasy....and Edgardo Giobbi can have more pictures on his Wall of Shame before the trial starts.
RoseMontague
Published Author
Yes, the simple fact is that stilicho is only approaching this issue from the standpoint of guilt. It doesn't fly from either a neutral or pro-innocence position.
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