Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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What are you presuming that from? Only if the police could already place her at the cottage. Could there be another reason? How would she come by this belief except through the interrogation. If so, she is making a decision about her best interest based on information she believes to be true.
Who knows, maybe she thought they had placed her in the cottage. Maybe she thought they would. Maybe she thought something else. Maybe she thought nothing of the kind.

Yet, a few hours later she modifies her stance. But nothing has changed. Whatever information she based her decision to place herself at the scene of the crime on has not changed over this time.

If that view were correct, there would be no memorial. How would you explain that? It seems like you are inventing quite a winding river to force her actions into the mold of your view.
Of course stuff has changed. She's had time time think about it and could already see the consequences of what she said beginning to unfold. Have you never made a snap judgement that shortly afterwards you regretted? Personally I've lost count of the number of times what I should have said has struck me too late. I understand it's quite a common phenomena. Has this really never happened to you?
 
The situation is not so different. I don't know if she was interrogated for 57 hours or not, but she was questioned by the police before. Yet her behavior changes radically in just this interrogation. For your theory to be correct, you have to incorporate a complete folding of her personality. Prior she led the police through the house and withstood hour upon hour of questioning and showed not one hint of panic or fear. She is very deliberate. And yet, for your version of the interrogation to have occurred, she has to have been very deliberate and calculating prior to the interrogation, still never have worked out a 'plan B' or an alternative explanation, and relied instead on a story that had she given it any thought at all she would have realized that it would not help her.
How calculating would she have had to be? All she has to say is that she wasn't there during the murder. Guilty or innocent things only got difficult for her after Raffaele folded and they thought they had proof that she had been lying about her involvement.
 
Stilicho insists that "she knew he was innocent". Therefore she should have told the police that. Obviously if she was not involved in the murder, then she didn't know he was innocent.

This isn't rocket surgery.
Don't **** about. Pretending to believe this nonsense is silly and childish.
 
That is not the point. You and Knox make the same claim. The police used coercive tactics which resulted in Knox giving a false statement.
I didn't say that.

There is no greater reason based on your version to believe Knox is lying when she said the police got her to doubt her own recollections. You are simply saying whatever Knox said is the result of police coercion. You happen to believe that Knox is guilty, therefore your explanation of the meaning of the false statement reinforces your belief in her guilt.
For the thousand and second time I do not "believe that Knox is guilty".

However, the argument you are using - that Knox's statements are the product of police coercion - has no probative value towards establishing guilt.
That isn't my argument

You have to rely on other reasons to believe she is guilty, and then, once you have established guilt, you can say because she is guilty, this must be the meaning of the interrogation. However, you want to go the other way around which I do not believe your argument supports.
Please link to the post where I said I believed she was guilty because of this. What I'm arguing against is the certainty about why Knox said what she said and signed what she signed.
 
Nonetheless, it's been argued often. No doubt that's due to those posters' overwhelming belief in guilt, which wouldn't allow them to even consider the possibility that she couldn't have known for sure whether Patrick was innocent or not (see stilicho's post as an example: "She knew he was innocent. Period").
Seriously? You also believe that they think, while claiming to know nothing about the murder, she should have claimed to know stuff about the murder? The interpretation given by Fiona and Thoughtful is the only one that makes any kind of sense at all.
 
On the lined out part. I think the police were happy she had confirmed a version of events they knew to be true. Anybody reading that "confession" can plainly see that it is pretty much worthless, lacking detail and vague to an extreme.
I think we've talked about this before and we aren't so very far apart on this.

I agree with Kaosium on the interrogation times, my research has it at about 20 hours of actual interrogation. That is still a lot.
Is it a lot? I genuinely don't know, but I always wondered how long the others (Filomena, the English friends, the boys downstairs etc..) were interviewed for. I don't suppose you know?
 
It is also indicative of her family's support and belief in her character and innocence that not only have her parents gone deeply in debt to support her legal defense but so has her extended family - aunts, uncles and grandparents.
If your mother insisting you're innocent was worth anything the prisons wouldn't be half so crowded.

As to their finances. I'll take your word for it.
 
Seriously? You also believe that they think, while claiming to know nothing about the murder, she should have claimed to know stuff about the murder? The interpretation given by Fiona and Thoughtful is the only one that makes any kind of sense at all.

How would she know if she was not there? She knew Patrick was working that evening but not all night.
 
And that's the important point (although most of the idiots can't see it, or don't want to). If Knox was not present at the murder scene, she would have no idea whatsoever whether Lumumba was a participant or not. The last communication she had with him, he'd told her not to come into work that night because there were so few customers in the bar. For all Knox knew, therefore, Lumumba might have closed the bar then decided to pay Meredith a visit.

And there's another important thing to understand here. It appears that the police told Knox they had solid physical evidence which not only confirmed Lumumba as the killer, but which also placed her in the cottage at the time of the murder. If that was the case (as I believe it was), then I also think that Knox would not have been prepared to believe that the police were deliberately lying to her. Therefore she would have experienced extreme cognitive dissonance: "Hang on: I remember I was at Raffaele's apartment all night, yet the police are now telling me they have proof that I met up with Patrick and went to the cottage, where I was present when Patrick raped and murdered Meredith". It appears perfectly clear to me that this cognitive dissonance had the effect that Knox initially (but reluctantly) chose to distrust her own mind, in the belief that physical evidence trumped intangible memory. It's further clear to me that by the time of the "gift" statement, Knox had had enough time to realise that no matter what the police had told her about physical evidence placing her at the murder scene, her memory was accurate. But Knox was in no position whatsoever to question the supposed physical evidence pointing to Lumumba. As far as she was concerned, it might well be that the police did have solid evidence showing that Lumumba was the killer, but that they had erred regarding the physical evidence tying her to the murder scene.

I think that when you look at the statements of November 5th/6th 2007 (and Knox's discussions with her parents in prison the following week) in the correct context, it's perfectly reasonable to conclude that Knox still had internal conflict regarding the alleged police physical evidence versus her own memory. I therefore don't think she could even state with certainty that she wasn't in the cottage: after all, the police said they had physical evidence placing her there at the time of the murder. And she most certainly couldn't say that Lumumba was not responsible for Meredith's murder. In that position, therefore, she was in no position to contact the police or her lawyer and make an assertive statement to the effect that she definitely wasn't at the cottage that night and she definitely didn't go there with Lumumba.

Lastly, let's never lose sight of the fact that, as with everything else, it's up to the police/prosecutors to prove each element of their case. In this instance, it quickly became clear that a) Lumumba was in his bar all evening, and had nothing to do with the crime; and b) there was no physical evidence whatsoever tying either Lumumba or Knox to the murder or the murder scene. Therefore, the police had absolutely nothing to substantiate the statements made by Knox, and in fact they had evidence to positively refute the statements. When you add it all together, the coercion, the police lies (albeit legitimate ones, but ones which Knox trusted as accurate) and the subsequent provable inaccuracy of the narrative, it's clear to most reasonable people that the "confession/accusation" and its aftermath are totally irrelevant in terms of assessing the guilt or non-guilt of Knox.

And yet still we see idiots saying things like: "Well, the clincher for me was when I discovered that Knox had falsely accused an innocent man of the murder: who but a guilty person would do such a thing?!" It's rather sad to see such ignorance, lack of intelligence and poor reasoning skills in action.

LondonJohn,
I think this kind of lying to suspects should be rethought, and soon (although I understand that at the moment such lies are considered legimate within interrogation technique at the moment).
Before people had an idea of repressed memory, you can see how it's viewed as legitimate. But now that the idea of repressed memory is in the 'public consciousness', it's crystal clear that this kind of lying is a risk factor in inducing false memories, and eliciting false confessions (especially when the suspect is intelligent / psychologically informed, as Knox was to a certain extent), it's use should be banned, IMO.
Here's an interesting link to an article which details the types of lie interrogators can tell to suspects (in the US): http://www.straightdope.com/columns...e-lie-about-while-conducting-an-interrogation
It seems to be the case that the type of lie in this case (physical evidence that she was at the scene at the time of the murder) is categorised as an 'intrinsic' lie (directly related to the suspect in relation to the crime) and therefore not usually coercive.
However, I think if a case like this had gotten to the higher courts in the US, then it's quite likely that when you combine intrinsic lie plus suggestion of repressed memory, that this would be judged as coercive. I'd be really interested to know if there were any cases like this one ('intrinsic' lie by investigators, plus suggestion of repressed memory by the investigator, resulting in false memories and a false confession) had ever reached the higher courts in US/UK/Europe, and what ruling was made.
 
I think we've talked about this before and we aren't so very far apart on this.


Is it a lot? I genuinely don't know, but I always wondered how long the others (Filomena, the English friends, the boys downstairs etc..) were interviewed for. I don't suppose you know?

My understanding is Filomena was interviewed on 2 November when they all went to the police station and once more in Mignini's office with her lawyer present. After the arrest she was interviewed and testified several more times before the main trial.
 
Great example of working from the assumption of guilt backwards to explain an event!
I'm not working backwards to explain an event. Did you work forwards from an explanation of the event, protected by a Chinese Wall from your other knowledge of the case?

It just as likely or more so given the total lack of any convincing physical evidence that she had no clue what had happened because she wasn't at the cottage when the murder occurred (or at all that night for that matter)because she was blissfully sleeping after an evening of good food, a little pot and some (good) sex.
Could be.

BTW - Why did she "buckle"? - After all an innocent person would never confess right?
Who says that? Of course innocent people confess.

EXCEPT that they do in about 25% of confessions!
25% is higher than I would have expected, but I don't intend to argue the point.

She had answered the same questions over and over, provided the same details many times, even so was being told she was involved and would never see her parents of fsmily again and would spent the rest of her life in prison. The police KNEW Patrick did it - she wanted to sleep - wanted to pee - she just gave up and gave them what they wanted.
Am I to infer from this that you were there since you assert these things as facts, or should I use common sense and assume they are things that you haven't personally witnessed but believe to be the case?
 
I presume that is what you said to Stilicho? Because I'm not quite sure what you are complaining about, nor why you feel the need to be so rude about it. Perhaps you need a break?
No I don't. Stilchio is quite clearly working under the assumption that Knox is guilty and anyway, he says she shouldn't have said anything. If Knox is guilty, of course she knew Patrick was innocent.
 
How calculating would she have had to be? All she has to say is that she wasn't there during the murder. Guilty or innocent things only got difficult for her after Raffaele folded and they thought they had proof that she had been lying about her involvement.


Amanda did say she wasn't there during the murder -- that's actually WHY things got difficult for her. Things stopped being difficult only when she finally gave in to the police and agreed with them.

We don't know exactly when the police went into Amanda's interrogation with the news about Raffaele having "folded" (we don't even know if he actually folded). However, the information they got out of Raffaele was as credible as the information they would get out of Amanda -- both were forced to agree with the police, and then the police ran with what they would later say was what they "already knew to be the truth."

The fact that they arrested Patrick without investigating or interviewing him first proves they were not interested in following protocol or uncovering the actual truth.
 
How would she know if she was not there? She knew Patrick was working that evening but not all night.
Exactly. Nobody but a lunatic would demand Knox assert that she KNEW FOR A FACT Patrick was innocent while claiming to know nothing about the crime. So far nobody on PMF seems to be owning up to ever having intended to demand this.
 
The alternative view is such an "appalling vista" that you can't imagine it can be possible. :D
Indeed, but so far there are no takers on PMF and from where I'm sitting the only people who seem to be wrong on this particular point are you guys.
 
Really? :rolleyes: Gosh, thanks, I hadn't actually thought of that! :rolleyes:

But what if she is innocent? Then she wouldn't know whether Patrick was innocent, would she? Perhaps you hadn't considered that possibility. :D
What in the heck are you talking about? Given that the point is obvious, why are you ridiculing it?
 
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Exactly. Nobody but a lunatic would demand Knox assert that she KNEW FOR A FACT Patrick was innocent while claiming to know nothing about the crime. So far nobody on PMF seems to be owning up to ever having intended to demand this.

katy_did quoted stilicho in her post. I think "she knew he was innocent, period" covers just about everything else she either knew or didn't know.
 
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