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Incest in a lift

Actually, the Germans probably didn't, but IIRC Rome actually did have elevators for the senators and such. The idea of having a rope over a pulley and a big wooden basket hung from it, was pretty obvious to them too, and, hey, who needs motors to pull them when you have slaves? :p

Sadly enough though, we don't have records of anyone boning in an elevator back then. Which would have been pretty awesome for an open basket outside, if you think about it :p
 
The point of course is that those who predicted what would happen with divorce or civil unions were right about their predictions, whatever else one can say of them.



But I thought prostitution was just a business deal between two consenting adults?

A) You must be confusing me with someone else. I don't think we have spoken word one on the issue.

B) There is a distinct difference between a business transaction between 2 adults, and a lifelong grooming to give sex for reward.

Its like trying to compare child molestation using candy, with a child buying candy at the store, apples and oranges.
 
Queen Victoria's husband Prince Albert was her first cousin.

The wife of King Olav V of Norway, father of the current King Harald, was his first cousin.

Although first cousin marriage is looked down on in Norway today, it has a long history. Not among aristocracy, as Norway never had much of that, but among farmers trying to keep land within the family.
 
Incest between siblings is also a crime. When it comes to the closest relationships such as brother and sister it's naive of you to say that "one generation of inbreeding is not going to produce anything other than a normal child" especially when I linked to the dangers earlier. I shall do so again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding#Genetic_disorders

"A 1994 study found the progeny of first cousins, in Pakistan, indicate morbidity levels to be some 1% to 4% higher than in the offspring of unrelated couples."

1% to 4% higher risk than unrelated couples means almost no increased risk at all. That means that even if the chance of an unrelated couple to have a a child with a genetic defect was 1%, it would be 1,01-1,04% for first cousins. That's hardly any increase at all. And the number is far far lower than 1%.

There are couples who have genetic disorders with much higher risk of getting children with severe genetic defects than first cousins, or even siblings. If you want to ban incest based on genetic risk, you should also ban sex between people who have severe genetic disorders, like risk of Fragile X syndrome.
 
1% to 4% higher risk than unrelated couples means almost no increased risk at all. That means that even if the chance of an unrelated couple to have a a child with a genetic defect was 1%, it would be 1,01-1,04% for first cousins. That's hardly any increase at all. And the number is far far lower than 1%.

There are couples who have genetic disorders with much higher risk of getting children with severe genetic defects than first cousins, or even siblings. If you want to ban incest based on genetic risk, you should also ban sex between people who have severe genetic disorders, like risk of Fragile X syndrome.

A family that is a good friend of mine, with the parents now in their seventies, had the unfortune to happen to have dormant genes for Morbus Wilson. Worse, they did not discover it until their first child exhibited symptoms in his late teens, with more children born already. So now one of their children is dead since a few years back, in his 30'ies or early 40'ies, and another one is quickly going as well. Worst part about this disease is that it doesn't just destroy the body, but your mind as well.

Now, what was the point of that? Oh, yes, hereditary diseases. It would generally be considered to be absurd to prevent people with severe hereditary diseases to have offspring (cries of eugenics, etc) yet people frequently champion incest legislation on the exact same grounds, even when the risk is far lower.

(granted, in this specific case, Morbus Wilson is almost entirely treatable provided it is discovered before puberty, which it isn't because you rarely see any signs by then)
 
Well, with my sisters, yeah, ick. But other people's sisters are often pretty hot. Would they look that way to me if I were their brother? Just don't know.
 
1% to 4% higher risk than unrelated couples means almost no increased risk at all. That means that even if the chance of an unrelated couple to have a a child with a genetic defect was 1%, it would be 1,01-1,04% for first cousins. That's hardly any increase at all. And the number is far far lower than 1%.

There are couples who have genetic disorders with much higher risk of getting children with severe genetic defects than first cousins, or even siblings. If you want to ban incest based on genetic risk, you should also ban sex between people who have severe genetic disorders, like risk of Fragile X syndrome.

I know you don't mean it this way, Ryokan, but see my post above: "higher genetic risk due to incest is a myth" (which it probably is) will be the first casualty; next, tear-jerking stories of brothers and sisters who were lovers in the cruel, misunderstanding world; rants about how all hatred of incest is just due to the "ick factor" ("if you don't like it, don't do it!"); and finally -- "hey, so why is incest really wrong?! You RACIST!".

We've seen it all before, numerous times.
 
The slippery slope argument isn't a fallacy if the slope is, in fact, slippery. Before X is legitimized, those who say X will lead to Y are laughed at for not noticing X is totally different than Y. After X is legitimized, however, the same people who previously claimed this X is totally different than Y usually also want to legitimize Y, claiming it is very clear X and Y are actually really similar -- precisely the slippery slope argument they laughed at with their opponents as long as their goal was to legitimize X.

I'd like some verifiable examples of this claim, please.

We've seen this happen, for example, with divorce.

Have we? Who is "we"? What nations and cultures in what time periods?

Those who claimed easy divorce will increase illegitimacy were laughed at, told clearly these two things are totally different.

Were they? Where? Did anyone actually use that as an argument against divorce? Some nations have had legalized divorce for centuries, others only for decades. Cultural concepts of marriage and divorce vary considerably from place to place.

Plus, your claimed link between divorce and increased rates of illegitimacy doesn't bear out in all cultures. For example, Japan has had legal divorce since the 1600's, but they didn't have huge rates of illegitimate childbirth.

I suspect that modern increased rates of illegitimate childbirth is more a product of welfare payments, less stigma, and other modern changes in society that make it easier for women to raise children without a partner.

We've also seen this happen with civil unions. At the time those who supported it claimed it is totally different than marriage, and thus only people who are bigots will claim that it will lead to gay marriage. Needless to say the minute civil unions became legalized the fight to legalize gay marriage -- naturally enough, now considered very similar to civil unions -- started. Once again the "slippery slope" folks were 100% correct.

In many places civil unions are considerably different from marriage, from both a legal and cultural standpoint. Although the exact nature of what counts as a civil union varies depending on where you live.

We might well see this with polygamy: first we are told there is no relation, and marrying two men is something totally different than one man marrying two women; I myself was often told this on this forum. But if and when gay marriage is normalized, why, then one can bet -- judging from previous experience -- that suddenly it will become "obvious" to everybody except "bigots" (or so the proponents of polygamy will claim) that surely, if two persons can marry, this is suddenly very similar to three people marrying.

If three or more persons wish to be joined together in a group marriage, what's wrong with that? I'd support a system of polygamy where all partners have equal standing.

But polygamy definetly isn't the same as monogamy. Allowing same-sex couples to get married won't change the arguments for polygamy in the slightest.

If your argument were valid, shouldn't all the cultures that supported polygamy in the past have been more willing to accept gay marriage? After all, you're arguing that allowing one makes the other seem more acceptable. This argument works both ways, but no such trend has ever been observed in history.

But since it applies equally well to any sort of X whatever, then there is no way to stop polygamy, prostitution, sadomasochism (wait -- that's already de facto legal at least), necrophilia (the corpse isn't a person, so who is hurt?), incest (between adults), or any of the numerous other psychopatia sexualis from being normalized, as well.

Incest can result in harmful effects to any potential offspring. Plus, there's a matter of potential psychological harm in situations where one person may feel pressured to have intercourse with a close relative.

Defiling a corpse can cause emotional distress to the deceased's relatives. Plus a corpse isn't a consenting anything, let alone a consenting adult, so that argument doesn't apply. (More a case of vandalism of someone else's property?)

Fun fact, there's no federal law against necrophilia in the USA, and some states have no specific law against it. This results in some interesting court cases. For example. :)

As for prostitution, is it necessarily a bad thing? Over here we've legalized it and it hasn't caused any discernible moral decline. Up in Queensland, a brothel called Daily Planet made headlines in 2003 when it became one of the first legal brothels listed on the stock exchange (in the form of a property trust). Apparently it's been in business since 1975, long before it was legalized.
 
As Bertrand Russell said, the Holy Roman Empire was never Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire.

I believe tyou are thinking of Voltaire, but he was making his observation in the 18th century. It happens to be fairly accurate if you look at the state of the empire during his time.

Prior to that, the Emperer was crowned by the Pope of the Roman Catholic church, thus giving some legitimacy to the claim that it was holy, specifically in the eyes of the roman catholic church. The HRE was a bonified empire consisting of three kingdoms and numerous other small states.

The name "Holy Roman Empire" was absolutely ligit up to the end of the 15th century.
 

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