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Szamboti's Missing Jolt paper

I had a different introduction to WTC collapse. Saw it as a "plane hits" followed immediately by "tower collapses" on BBC TV in Wales whilst on a touring holiday. So presumed that collapse came immediately after plane strike.

I didn't realise till years later that there was an hour between those two real events.

So no basis for me to pretend or boast how clever I had been predicting (or not predicting) collapse. :(

There were a few people (I think one of them was a structural Engineer) who believed the towers were going to come down.....I can't remember the exact quotes unless I go look them up.


As for myself....I was correct that they would collapse...but I (and the people with me) was wrong about why they would collapse....so I wouldn't say I was clever in the least.

I thought they would collapse because of the physical damage I saw to the buildings....I never considered the effects of the fire....
 
...I disagree. Given that WTC2 had already descended, one would assume from that point onward getting the hell away from the base of WTC1 )and evacuate the lower floors) would be rather high on the priority list, regardless of communication from one helicopter crew....
Yes. We are seeing another example of the trap in these Internet discussions when folks focus on the immediate couple of posts and thereby limit the context of issues under consideration.
 
...As for myself....I was correct that they would collapse...but I (and the people with me) was wrong about why they would collapse....so I wouldn't say I was clever in the least.

I thought they would collapse because of the physical damage I saw to the buildings....I never considered the effects of the fire....
I originally thought the collapses came because the aircraft impacts took out enough structure to cause immediate collapse. (See my previous post)

Then mid 2007 I got involved with a friend who is a conspiracy nut who was claiming CD. Researching via Internet led me to the true collapse sequence and from there the structural and military engineer in me decided to work out:
A) How I as a military engineer I could demolish such a building if the General gave me the task; AND
B) Work out how it actually happened without CD.
 
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Bazant's model is the only one mentioned in the report that NIST did not have objections to. Since NIST does not deal with collapse progression, Bazant's collapse progression is what is officially endorsed by NIST.
That's where you fail.

Bazant's inevitability of the collapse once initiated is what is agreed by NIST. That's not the same as promoting the limiting Bazant's collapse progression model as the explanation for the collapse. Take some minutes until you understand the difference.

From NIST:

The study performed by Northwestern University (Bazant 2002) was a simplified approximate analysis of the overall collapse of the WTC towers which addressed the question of why a total collapse occurred.

[...]

The study by Northwestern did not address the details of impact damage, fire dynamics, or structural response of the towers. Rather, a generalized condition was assumed of heated columns, and the question of why there was total collapse was addressed. NIST agrees with the assessment of the tower's required structural capacity to absorb the released energy of the upper building section as it began to fall as an approximate lower bound.
NCSTAR 1-6, p.323.

Why are you promoting that as if NIST endorses Bazant's progression model as if it was what happened and as if it is official, is beyond me. They discuss other models of fire effects in other studies and discuss the points of agreement just like in this one, which doesn't make these other studies official in any meaningful way either.

Of course, you're invited to provide proof that shows how NIST endorses Bazant's progression model as if it was what happened. I don't know any.


Your thinking isn't working too well. NIST agrees with Bazant's model for collapse progression. Bazant wrote subsequent papers refining it and replying to critiques, including one entitled "What Did and Did Not Cause Collapse of WTC Twin Towers". Was that just for some theoretical fun?
Possibly. What was the reason of publishing it, according to you? Do you think these are official? In what sense?


While NIST was really endorsing the pancake model the whole time? If NIST was going with the pancake model, why would they bother re-investigating the Twin Towers?
NIST does not endorse any collapse progression model whatsoever. They just didn't investigate that. It would be stupid for them to endorse something just for the sake of endorsing it.

[ETA: And they bothered re-investigating the Twin Towers because they cared about what led to collapse initiation. They didn't care about collapse progression.]


Ignoring the fact, firstly, that Bazant manufactured his so-called "inevitability",
... which is just as incorrect and misguided as the rest of your assessments...

you cannot in any case apply Bazant's "inevitability of collapse" to the FEMA pancake model.
Yes you can. From the same paragraph section as the quote above:

The likelihood of the falling building section aligning vertically with the columns below was small, given the observed tilting, so that the required capacity would be greater if interaction with the floors was also considered, as pointed out in the study.


They are completely different models.
They aren't, in the sense that columns are the structural elements that are most prone to arresting collapse. Floors didn't have columns supporting them, therefore Bazant's study proves that the progressive collapse of floors was inevitable, therefore FEMA's explanation is indirectly covered by Bazant as a less favorable case for collapse arrest than his limiting case.


From Bazant: "In the structural engineering community, [...]
That's from a different paper (Bazant 2007) to that which NIST discusses (Bazant 2002), and is therefore not «officially endorsed». Fail again.

But let's dig into the content:
one early speculation was that, because of a supposedly insufficient strength of the connections between the floor trusses and the columns, the floors ‘pancaked’ first, leaving an empty framed tube, which lost stability only later. This hypothesis, however, was invalidated at NIST by careful examination of the photographic record, which shows some perimeter columns to be deflected by up to 1.4 m inward. This cannot be explained by a difference in thermal expansion of the opposite flanges of column. NIST explains this deflection by a horizontal pull from catenary action of sagging floor trusses, the cause of which has already been discussed. This pull would have been impossible if the floor trusses disconnected from the perimeter columns"
That's discussing the cause of collapse initiation, not progression.


The only official organization I know that gave an explanation of the actual collapse sequence is FEMA. Note that NIST contended their collapse initiation mechanism, not their collapse sequence.
See above and then please show us anywhere in the NIST reports where they endorse the FEMA pancake model.
For what I know, they don't. Again, NIST does not endorse any collapse progression model whatsoever. They just didn't investigate that. It would be stupid for them to endorse something just for the sake of endorsing it.

However, here is a quote suggesting that they think that the floors pancaked:

Failure of the gusset plate welded to the top truss chord was again almost exclusively observed regardless of location. This may be a result of overloading the lower floors as the floors above were "pan-caking."
NCSTAR 1-3C Damage and Failure Modes p.117.


AGAIN. NIST discarded the FEMA model.
NIST discarded the FEMA model of collapse initiation, not of collapse progression, and your quote from Bazant explains why they discarded it. NIST didn't evaluate collapse progression at all.


As I've already pointed out, you can't have both. You certainly can't have FEMA pancakes and Bazant's one-way-crush "limiting case" model as complementary models. They are completely different mechanistic models. Bazant is clearly talking about column and not floor failure. How is it that you don't understand this?
And Bazant proves that in the case of columns (the most favorable case to collapse arrest), the collapse could not have been avoided, which implies that in the case of floors (which is less favorable to collapse arrest) it was even more inevitable. How is it that you don't understand this?


Yes, I'm aware of this. And guess what? Just like the failure of the pancaking model, they too are not able to explain core destruction and the general absence of pancaked floors at Ground Zero. Gosh, didn't see that one coming!
That's beyond the topic, but they do explain it (as the core relies on lateral support that was stripped) and there were pancaked floors at GZ.


So I ask again: We either have a useful, realistic and officially endorsed model of the collapse progression, or we don't. Which is it?
Answer: FEMA's is the only official explanation of collapse progression, and it is useful and realistic. Therefore, we do have one.
 
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That's where you fail.

Bazant's inevitability of the collapse once initiated is what is agreed by NIST. That's not the same as promoting the limiting Bazant's collapse progression model as the explanation for the collapse.
...
NIST does not endorse any collapse progression model whatsoever. They just didn't investigate that. It would be stupid for them to endorse something just for the sake of endorsing it.

...
They aren't, in the sense that columns are the structural elements that are most prone to arresting collapse. Floors didn't have columns supporting them, therefore Bazant's study proves that the progressive collapse of floors was inevitable, therefore FEMA's explanation is indirectly covered by Bazant as a less favorable case for collapse arrest than his limiting case.

...
However, here is a quote suggesting that they think that the floors pancaked:

Failure of the gusset plate welded to the top truss chord was again almost exclusively observed regardless of location. This may be a result of overloading the lower floors as the floors above were "pan-caking."
NCSTAR 1-3C Damage and Failure Modes p.117.

NIST discarded the FEMA model of collapse initiation, not of collapse progression, and your quote from Bazant explains why they discarded it. NIST didn't evaluate collapse progression at all.
...
And Bazant proves that in the case of columns (the most favorable case to collapse arrest), the collapse could not have been avoided, which implies that in the case of floors (which is less favorable to collapse arrest) it was even more inevitable.
...
Answer: FEMA's is the only official explanation of collapse progression, and it is useful and realistic. Therefore, we do have one.

Excellent summary of the relation of NIST's, FEMA's and Bazant's findings.
Total Pwnage.
# oysteinbookmark
 
Whilst I have few issues with the Bazantian limiting case during progression (within its scope of applicability, namely energetics only), I think it should be highlighted that the initial state was pretty unreasonable.

NO-ONE* would expect arrest when dropping the entire intact upper section through large distance (x) onto intact structure below.

That specific issue could be massaged by providing the minimum distance (x) that would still result in progression.

I'm not sure if David Benson ever actually provided that value...
 
NO-ONE* would expect arrest when dropping the entire intact upper section through large distance (x) onto intact structure below.
You didn't write the footnote for the *, but keep in mind that I'm discussing with someone who has said that...

I'm not sure even a moon-sized field or mountain of rubble, dropped from a height of 12 feet would entirely crush the WTC. No. If you had it coming down from a higher height, in a steady stream over a long period of time, we would certainly see some major damage. Total collapse? I'm not sure.
 
The general group-think mentality about the relation between the NIST reports and BLGB is expressed below by Basquearch:

You don’t understand the big picture.

1) First phase of Towers 1,2 global collapse is the damage and gradual failure of the critical floor. This initial failure is what NIST exhaustively studied and provided a gravity alone explanation.

2) Second Phase of Towers 1,2 is the progressive collapse of the remainder of the structure to grade following the initial failure of the critical floor. Bazant mathematically describes this gravity alone global progressive collapse following the initial failure of the critical floor.

These two phases are complementary and universally understood to be such by the qualified peer reviewed civil/structural engineering universe and their published studies. These engineers all agree in a gravity only explanation for both phases.


In the first 12 pages of the OOS model thread, I am told in no uncertain terms how BLGB was viewed in JREF.

The NIST reports are published in 2005. BV, BL and BLGB in 2007, 2008.

BLGB was embraced by the JREF community because of the rigorous peer-review process it was subject to by the world engineering community, which seems considered similar to being blessed by the pope himself in the Catholic Church.
 
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Basquearche again, expressing the conformist viewpoint while not being able to distinguish between BZ and BV, BL and BLGB:


Major Tom
The collapse of the Towers is divided in two phases:
First Phase. The non-CD initial failure of one floor as explained by NIST and over a dozen other experienced non-CT structural engineers in their papers.
Second Phase. The non-CD progressive global collapse as explained by Bazant. NIST, and where mentioned by the engineers above, have reviewed and agree with Bazant’s second phase hypothetical collapse explanation.

In the main body of his first 2001 paper, Bazant assumes the most optimistic hypothesis, not the actual failure mode of the Towers because the actual collapse details are almost impossible to analyze precisely. So :

“For our purpose, we may assume that all the impact forces go
into the columns and are distributed among them equally. Unlikely
though such a distribution may be, it is nevertheless the
most optimistic hypothesis to make because the resistance of the
building to the impact is, for such a distribution, the highest. If the
building is found to fail under a uniform distribution of the impact
forces, it would fail under any other distribution.”


[qimg]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_aJeegFsC3nY/R3L_2XdW1SI/AAAAAAAAAbY/uR21-Fs5wXE/s400/Picture+3.png[/qimg]
Figure 1
Hypothetical collapse mode (my words)

Later in the same paper he answers a question about the actual collapse mode. You can see the top portion is tilted. This differs from the axial, uniform hypothetical collapse mode of Figure 1 above.

“Appendix II. Why Didn’t the Upper Part Pivot About Its Base?

Since the top part of the South Tower tilted [Fig. 3a], many
people wonder: Why didn’t the upper part of the tower fall to the
side like a tree, pivoting about the center of the critical floor?
[Fig. 3b]. To demonstrate why, and thus to justify our previous
neglect of tilting
, is an elementary exercise in dynamics.
Assume the center of the floor at the base of the upper part …

…. From this we further conclude
that the reaction at the base of the upper part of South
Tower must have begun shearing the columns plastically already
at the inclination of approximately 2.8 degrees.

The pivoting of the upper part must have started by an asymmetric
failure of the columns on one side of building, but already at
this very small angle the dynamic horizontal reaction at the base
of the upper part
must have reduced the vertical load capacity of
the remaining columns of the critical floor …..”


It’s this pivoting horizontal reaction thrust that contributes to the displacement of all columns in both towers and is missed by CTs.
[qimg]http://911review.com/coverup/fantasy/imgs/figure4.gif[/qimg]
http://www.civil.northwestern.edu/people/bazant/PDFs/Papers/405.pdf

I can see your setup a mile away. You will claim the initial phase was CD’d at the core and that phase two was gravity driven. I will call this opinion MCCCDH – (Minimalist Core Columns Controlled Demolition Hypothesis.)

You allege numerous times in your paper that Bazant claims that the perimeter and core columns globally failed by actually being crushed. This allegation is wrong as explained above.

Truther critics of Bazant have not read his papers, or if they have they don’t understand them, or if they understand them they are misrepresenting him.

.

Yipes!

With only a few hard-core Bazantistas left in this forum, I hope most people can distinguish between BZ (2002) and the series BV, BL and BLGB (2007, 2008) by now (2011).
 
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MT, do you really believe engineers even read (past tense) BLGB, and support crush down, crush up? Why would they?
 
Gee, I almost missed this, on account of you being on my pretend Ignore list.
ftfy

But really?? Neither of those models was meant to explain how the collapse progressed
No, the purpose of the models was to show the collapse would progress all the way down even making assumptions that the building was in far better shape than it actually was.

Not that you can understand this, but rational people (non-truthers) do.
 
From the Basquearch quote :"that the reaction at the base of the upper part of South Tower must have begun shearing the columns plastically already at the inclination of approximately 2.8 degrees. "

Oddly, BasqueArch later misquotes this in a number of posts (accusing me of something or other) to make it apply to WTC1, in which all columns completely failed at less than 1 degree tilt.

No kidding, I'll try to dig up the posts. Quite funny.
 
That's from a different paper (Bazant 2007) to that which NIST discusses (Bazant 2002), and is therefore not «officially endorsed». Fail again.

It's from "What DID and DID NOT Cause Collapse of WTC Twin Towers.." (BLGB) first published in 2007. Revised three times after that.
 
MT, do you really believe engineers even read (past tense) BLGB, and support crush down, crush up? Why would they?

No. How many readers or reviewers have the knowledge of the visual record required to properly review Bazant's claim in BLGB that his model matches all observables?

Checking such a claim requires a good understanding of what those observables are.
 
No. How many readers or reviewers have the knowledge of the visual record required to properly review Bazant's claim in BLGB that his model matches all observables?

Checking such a claim requires a good understanding of what those observables are.

Thanks, MT. But is checking crush down, crush up against the observables necessary to see it as a physically unrealistic model? Isn't simply reading and looking at the diagrams in the paper enough to discredit it as a physical impossibility?
 
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MT, do you reckon that ergo discusses engineering and the various hypothesis (BZ, BLGB, BV, NIST, ROOSD, ...) more competently than, say, ozeco, BasqueArch, Newtons Bit, tfk; or less competently, or about as competent as these?

It appears as if you try to avoid criticising or slapping ergo at all costs. Is that because you regard his competence highly?
 

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