Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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The civil trial of Patrick's is not part of this appeal, correct?

Incorrect. The defense is appealing all of the convictions, including the one for slandering Patrick.

Will this group of Judges be able to consider the statements by Amanda that were barred from the first trial but allowed in through the civil trial backdoor?

They will not only be able to, but they will have to, since one of the issues they will have to decide is whether Massei's decision to allow them was correct!

By the way, it's worth pointing out a very important difference between the Italian and U.S./U.K. systems, that is almost universally overlooked by everyone on both sides. In anglophone countries, the judge is separate from the jury and decides whether the jury (who are the only ones who decide the case) will be allowed to hear evidence; if a piece of evidence gets "thrown out", that means the jury will never even know it existed. The Italian system doesn't work like that. The way it apparently works in the Italian system is that when a piece of evidence is contested, the judges together with the rest of the jury (of which they are an integral part) retreat into the back room to decide not whether they will ever hear about it (they obviously already have!) but rather, whether it will "count" when they make their decision.

So for example there's no way that the knife and clasp could possibly be "thrown out" in the American sense; the jury members have already been witnessing all of the arguments about them!
 
Well I would say that they are saying there was plenty of opportunity for Raffaele's DNA to have been transferred to the clasp outside of him actually being involved in the murder because the clasp sat around and moved, it is not documented how, when, and what the circumstances of this move were. They can't say that the contamination was from willful contamination without any other evidence to support that, but they certainly aren't explicitly excluding this scenario. For all I know, they took the clasp to Raffaele's house and rubbed it against his pillow and came back with it.And if I understand the DNA report, isn't the bigger point that it is not even proven to be Raffaele's DNA on the clasp?
______________________

ForTruth,

Hmmm. Maybe something akin to your traveling bra clasp scenario did happen, but not intentionally. Ever wonder why, of all the pieces of evidence, this piece---and only this piece--- became a magnet for DNA from several persons? Other articles of Meredith's clothing had also been left on her bedroom floor til December 18th and they didn't become magnets. Why not?

Another distinguishing feature of the bra clasp is that it has hooks, as seen.........

image.php


Over on Bruce's site, Sarah was able to show that some (perhaps all) of the hazmat suits worn by the Polizia Scientifica are one-piece, the shoe covers are merely extensions of the leg covering material. So the wearer of the suit ties up---or secures--- the loose fabric of the shoe cover using white tape or white cloth straps, as seen........

image.php


These straps/pieces of tape on the shoe covers would provide places for the bra clasp hooks to snag the shoe covers, and--- if not detected by the investigator--- could lead to the clasp then being dragged to other locations in the cottage.

Likewise, the hazmat suits are made of thin disposable plastic, so if a wearer were to step on the bra clasp, one of the hooks could puncture the plastic material, again snagging onto the shoe cover and so hitching a ride to other places in the cottage.

A conscientious member of the Polizia Scientifica would have come forward and disclosed that the bra clasp had become snagged on his/her shoe cover, resulting in possible contamination as it traveled through the cottage. A not-so-conscientious person might have stayed silent and secretly returned the bra clasp to Meredith's bedroom. And maybe even hidden it underneath something-or-other. Say, exactly where was that bra clasp finally found?


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Ever wonder why, of all the pieces of evidence, this piece---and only this piece--- became a magnet for DNA from several persons? Other articles of Meredith's clothing had also been left on her bedroom floor til December 18th and they didn't become magnets. Why not?

It could also be because Stef didn't crank the knobs on the machine after receiving the "too low" reading. It could also be that she just could read the peaks because they were so low and it didn't matter because they had the clasp DNA.

The dragging of the clasp around is as good a theory as is necessary but unless you have a photo proving contamination it is meaningless:rolleyes:
 
I believe the mop gave no results when tested but I'd have to check to make certain.

Was the mop taken into Meredith's room before or after the bra clasp was collected?


After.

From the crime scene video 2007-12-18 part 2: The bra clasp is dropped into the evidence bag and sealed at index 00:37:20. Entry into Meredith's room with the wrapped mop is at index 00:49:05. (they turned off the date/time stamp for this visit so all we have is the frame index)

Though this particular event doesn't offer an explanation for how the clasp became contaminated. It does show their clear disregard for the boundaries between the various evidence zones and their willingness to blatantly lie about it in court.

We have no video or records at all of what was done in the cottage on November 4, 5, 6 and 14th.
 
I feel I'm beating the proverbial dead horse, but the knife discussion still bothers me because the DNA report should be looked at like the icing on the cake.

In no way does the knife enter the discussion if not for the DNA. No blood, not the right size for the wounds, not the right size for the outline on the sheet and no other indication that it was suspicious except that it was "clean". The DNA alone was not enough to make it the murder weapon.

The PG arguments get the skeptics to spend so much time discussing such minutia that isn't at the heart of what should be the case.

The knife DNA is similar to the footprint on the bath mat. Does it look more like RS's or RG's? The question should be: Is the footprint an identifiable one that matches someones foot in such a way that it excludes all or at the vast majority people except the suspect. There is no way that that print could have been put in a lineup of 10 similar footprints and have the expert say it must be RG's or RS's.
 
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Nobody knows exactly how Meredith's DNA came to be found when that trace from the knife was analyzed. This result matched what the prosecution was looking for so they presented it to the court instead of burying it.

One of the arguments is that lab contamination cannot be excluded, the probability cannot even be measured because the lab has not been forthcoming with the raw data.

Another argument is that contamination during handling cannot be excluded. The testimony of Stefano Gubbiotti insisting that he used new gloves to handle the knife is indication that he was exposing the knife to elements from the crime scene from where he had just returned.

So which is it: accidental contamination in the lab; accidental (or deliberate) contamination by Gubbiotti or did Armando Finzi set out that day with the intent of bringing back the evidence they needed to put the known criminals away?

Gubbiotti removed the knife from the sealed evidence bag and stuck it in a calendar box. The sole purpose of an evidence bag is to protect a sample from contamination... yet, somehow he didn't know that.

He may have been wearing a fresh gloves. Who knows? But given that he opened and discarded the evidence bag, it seems clear to me that he hadn't been trained in forensics and no one's fate should rest on his (in)ability to prevent contamination.
 
As far as the clasp is concerned, I will repeat what Halides1 said. If there are many other profiles on the clasp, how did they get there? Are we to assume everyone elses profile got there innocently, but not Raffaels? Also, how does one touch only the clasp and not the fabric? Who handled the clasp repeatedly? BINGO !!
 
What was Gubbiotti looking at the knife for? They found a bra with an end apparently cut off. They found the severed clasp under Meredith. They found the suspects and had all three of them securely locked away. The suspects were guilty but the interrogation failed to break them. The prospect of finding evidence was bleak. This will be bad for the whole department if the suspects were to walk after such a high profile arrest.

The plan for resolving this dilemma would have begun on the morning of the 6th. Let's tune back and see what Stefano Gubbiotti is up to...

Send assistant Finzi out to find the murder weapon Gubbiotti thought. But we can't expect to find a knife covered in the victims blood in plain sight. Any perp would have thoroughly cleaned if after 4 days if they didn't discard it immediately. A shinny clean knife would still do for Gubbiotti plan so that's what Finzi should look for. Gubbiotti needs to retrieve something from the cottage and this is the last day to do it.


What is Gubbiotti's plan to seal this case?! He can't very well retrieve a sample of Meredith's blood to plant on the knife. That would be too suspicious... ... ...



What is presented in this post is just the personal musings of the author. There is no claim that any of this actually happened. However, the concepts expressed here have yet to be falsified.
 
As I saw on PMF that they were discussing Knox not wearing a bra, just wanted to make a record here that although in the first two pics her nipples do show, in the third, you can clearly see the straps of her cammosile-bra. Just defending Amanda against those who would trash her, for what it is worth:

[qimg]http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/pc/Amanda+Knox+Amanda+Knox+Returns+Court+vkKzRPFYGyAl.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/pc/Amanda+Knox+Amanda+Knox+Returns+Court+Bpmnxi4h5vkl.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Amanda+Knox+Amanda+Knox+Appeal+Trial+Resumes+Z6ZA3uZfY4fl.jpg[/qimg]
Pictures by Zimbio

http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Amanda+Knox+Amanda+Knox+Appeal+Trial+Resumes+Z6ZA3uZfY4fl.jpg

It is really sad that this even needed to be explained. H9 posted a website similar to TMZ but with far more Adult rated content that showed celebrities topless and other revealing outfits. That is a really classy thing to do on a website that claims to be dedicated to Meredith Kercher.

There are many occasions where certain fabrics or colors reveal more than intended in photographs. Maybe H9 can start a website revealing "Gotcha moments"- when her services are no longer needed on PMF.

Something else to note; PMF is also now offering free legal services. SomeAlibi has offered to give free legal services to anyone who has had death threats made against them. I wonder if he will represent me free of charge? I imagine I am better off sticking with my current attorney but "free" is always enticing!
 
It is really sad that this even needed to be explained. H9 posted a website similar to TMZ but with far more Adult rated content that showed celebrities topless and other revealing outfits. That is a really classy thing to do on a website that claims to be dedicated to Meredith Kercher.

There are many occasions where certain fabrics or colors reveal more than intended in photographs. Maybe H9 can start a website revealing "Gotcha moments"- when her services are no longer needed on PMF.

Something else to note; PMF is also now offering free legal services. SomeAlibi has offered to give free legal services to anyone who has had death threats made against them. I wonder if he will represent me free of charge? I imagine I am better off sticking with my current attorney but "free" is always enticing!
Point well made. I fully agree. But I think you would do well to stick to your present attorney; dealing with PMF people always carries a hidden price.:eye-poppi
 
I feel I'm beating the proverbial dead horse, but the knife discussion still bothers me because the DNA report should be looked at like the icing on the cake.

In no way does the knife enter the discussion if not for the DNA. No blood, not the right size for the wounds, not the right size for the outline on the sheet and no other indication that it was suspicious except that it was "clean". The DNA alone was not enough to make it the murder weapon.

The PG arguments get the skeptics to spend so much time discussing such minutia that isn't at the heart of what should be the case.

The knife DNA is similar to the footprint on the bath mat. Does it look more like RS's or RG's? The question should be: Is the footprint an identifiable one that matches someones foot in such a way that it excludes all or at the vast majority people except the suspect. There is no way that that print could have been put in a lineup of 10 similar footprints and have the expert say it must be RG's or RS's.

yea, but think about the Judges...not just posters.

they make arguments similar to this -
Micheli makes up something like this... "i'm going to start with them in the bedroom of the crime and go backwards..."

Massei basically says fictional fantasy... " I see Raffaele running around picking out a rock while Amanda is in the shower washing off the blood..."

Mignini says on CNN, they didnt record the Nov 5/6 interrogation because of budget issues.

But on Nov 3,4,5 the two are in bugged rooms in the Questura being recorded by Colatone and others....several times in a bugged room and cell phones tapped...in the same Questra.

So with this kind of craziness going on, I dont understand how anyone can be confident because of logic.
 
Always available to talk

I have tried to reach out on several occasions to those at PMF who disagree with my views and each time I have been denied. I can't say that I am surprised. I am sure it is easier to not have to explain your opinion in an actual conversation.

I would love to have a conversation with Pilot Padron. If he would like to chat at anytime I will be more than willing. The post below was posted on PMF and I wanted to know if Pilot agreed with the poster Stint7's assessment of the situation. From what I can tell, JREF is actually "The Trenches."

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:18 pm Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 25 -

"FromThe Trenches"

1) Poor Brucie Fisher/FischerTM (again)

After months of outright denying and then silly spinning, parsing and dancing around the truth, he finally admits that YES, Frank Sfarzo did in fact definitely say Brucie was "confused".

Sad part was in so admitting, Brucie found necessary to again launch off on an incredible spittle dripping vicious attack on the poster that would not let him get away with the documented untruth.
This obvious infraction of the Membership Agreement that Brucie always violates everywhere, earned for him yet again the dreaded "edited for civility" red box and another formal yellow warning flag.

This then again confirms yet another thing he refuses to admit.
His attack dog writing style, laced with his untruths and inaccuracies has gotten him warned, suspended, put on probation and/or banned from every single Forum he ever posted to except for one notable exception....his own IIP.
And no one with any stature following the case reads that mostly ignored, anemic, childish copy cat, one sided abortion anyway.

2) And just to let you know how 'busy' all those 'guests' are watching every PMF word:

A) Another usually less 'off the wall' FOA Groupie finds necessary to attempt to amuse like minded FOA dimwits with this jewel:
"I would like to suggest that we write a group letter to PG (Skep) requesting that she let the world know who the latest "stalker" is. This is a public safety issue, who knows where he'll strike next?"

(This "humor" after a journalist documents death threats because she writes about Knox...Nice)

B) "Over here we have to defend out posts, on PMF they don't"
"That's not totally true. They just had a big dust-up concerning bras and nipples."
 
Thank you. The comment in the post above is the first time I have been called a "One sided abortion" - now that's getting creative.

Do you suppose that is in contrast to a multifacited abortion?

I swear, I never know whether to laugh or cry with these people. :eye-poppi
 
I'm very curious what the 6 judges of Masseis trial think , now that the knife and bra clasp are found by the court experts to be garbage-evidence.

Have they been interviewed since the recent Appeal results? Would they still vote guilty?

Massei Trial Lay Judges
Anna Maria Artegiani, Lay Judge
Giuliano Menichetti*, Lay Judge
Maria Ludovica Morelli, Lay Judge
Angela Irene Ceccarini, Lay Judge
Andrea Valentini, Lay Judge
Palo Rapetti, Lay Judge
 
It could speak to the roles that may have had in the murder.

Also, I think it would require some thought to compare the two probabilities. Say there were 100 opportunities for Guede to leave DNA and he left four detectable samples. If Amanda and Raffaele had 25 opportunities I don't think it would be so stunning that nothing was found. The less of a role one supposes they had in the murder the less surprising it becomes. If one wanted to push a scenario where Guede had a minor role and Amanda and Raffaele had a major role wrestling Meredith across the room, then it would be suprising.

If most of the dust in the room is Merediths, a tiny bit is from other housemates, and a tiny tiny bit of that tiny bit is from Raffaele, it's a surprise that it's his that comes through strongly and theirs that comes through weakly.



Now I am four pages behind and work will keep me from catching up ...not that it matters as you seem to ignore any argument I have anyway. Though we seem to have finally skipped past the non murder weapon, ...the "double DNA" knife and that is as it should be. Stefanoni operated an illegal lab! Not in real terms but in the sense that she just does not have the facility, the ability, or the records to confirm the conclusions she has made. For the knife there was no second test, no second run, no negative and positive control samples concentrated to the same degree as the low copy number sample from the knife blade. We can leave out non- certified lab, no lab manual, no written SOP's for this lab. We can also leave out high levels of conflict of interest by the lab director signing on as a prosecutor advisor. This last truth about this case is so illegal and so unethical as it must nullify any result found by this lab.

In what world would you want your daughter or son to be tested by the prosecutors consultant's lab? It's insane!

Now we have moved on to RS DNA on the bra clasp. Again this is a Low copy number sample and for you to classify it as somehow a "majority" sample is unfair. It is clearly a highly mixed sample. The independent expert qualified it as being so mixed that she could find a sample matched to the President of the Court and to even herself.

Perhaps you don’t realize that the truth about the CSI is that it started on Nov 2, 2007 and then between that time and Dec 18th 2007 there were a number of interventions into the scene such that even Stefanoni could not tell the court who went there and when and what they did there. What was clear was that there was an undocumented investigation or intrusion between the dates above. The mattress did not float out to the living room...the many , many uncollected yet bloody clothing articles were moved about in the murder room...under Merediths bed there were no longer shopping bags and gifts for her family but instead we clearly see piles of disorganized and miscellaneous shoes, boots, and articles of clothing. Even a hot water bag probably used by Meredith to help relieve cramps and which most likely seems to be her pillow at death, or that her new boots her father spoke about as he remembered their last meeting. She was so proud of her new boots...ironic these boots were near her head at death but somehow far removed and under her bed by the 18th of December.

So many real details...you mention RG DNA as being slight for such a brutal murder and struggle but don’t forget ...this was the CSI team that could not retrieve one DNA sample from a blood soaked towel. This same CSI team left MK blue blood soaked hoodie with turned inside out sleeves to lay in the room from Nov 2 until Dec 18th. WHY? Or her shoes or socks or purse all left after the first investigation was "complete". I put complete in quotes because why wasn’t it complete? These are the questions you need to consider. Not how some part of RS DNA MAY be on the bra clasp...rather how could it not be? How is Hellmans there? I happen to believe this scientist would not venture this statement if she could not back it up. Unlike Stefanoni who has been shown to be defensive and unforthcoming when asked to show her work. Show your work...if you know it and you are confident then that is a joy, right? Here is my work...see how I crossed my t's and dotted my i's.
I understand this is IMPORTANT! Young lives are at stake! See my careful work? NO! We don’t get this...we, after 4 years still don’t have it. So how can a possible low copy number trace of RS land him in jail for 25 years? It seems to be equal to Hellmann's chances of his DNA being there. Did Meredith lay her bra in the bathroom on a place RS touched when he used that same bathroom that day? Its more likely than Hellmann's DNA being there. But this scientist staked her reputation that she could find Hellmann DNA traces there.

Now consider that this is THE ONE thing you have....the only thing you have that links RS to this crime. Is that enough?
 
Bruce, this is one FOA dimwit that appreciates your insight, and your humor.

Seconded. Further, I wouldn't get too worked up. They've only got two or three more weeks of self delusion left.

Then, if they were raised properly, they'll have to apologize.
 
Perhaps we now have simplicity with Rolf and his time of death argument.


Thanks, but it's not my argument. I merely read the argument as presented by others in the thread, and recognised it as compelling.

I don't know enough about the case to know how solid the Knox/Sollecito alibi is for 9.00 to 9.30 pm that day. However, there is no reasonable medical doubt whatsoever that Meredith died within that time-frame.

I note that Rudy Guede, who certainly knows when Meredith died, and who is presumably tailoring his story to match facts he believes can be ascertained, says she died about 9.20. I note there is no evidence of Meredith having lived in her home for any appreciable time after her return at about 9pm - no heating on, no computer activity, laundry unattended, even her outdoor clothes still worn. I note there is positive evidence of Meredith having been harmed before about 10pm, in the absence of the expected telephone call to her mother.

So yes, simplicity if you like. Any accusation of Knox and/or Sollecito has to deal with a time of death of around 9.20 or so. Is the DNA evidence really so compelling that it can over-ride this logic? I really don't think so.

Rolfe.
 
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