Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[carlitos]

fair question

The holocaust happened. Those who question that it occurred need to be ignored, not given a forum for monomania.

Why is JREF a forum for this stuff?

I'm new here, but please note that I ask only one question and it's not rhetorical. I'm prepared to agree with the rationale, though I can't imagine what it might be.

Thanks.

Hi and welcome. You can discuss pretty much any topic here, as long as you stay within the Membership Agreement. As it stands, holocaust denial is relegated to "Conspiracy Theories," and my understanding as to why it's permitted is along the lines of sunlight is the best disinfectant. These guys exist, may as well let them dig their own graves with their posts here.

 

[Wroclaw]

By the time they reach college it's too late. The children have already been brainwashed by the Wiesels, the Simons, the Zisblatts, and the Spielbergs. The children have already become Holocaust chimps under the control of the Holocaust chimp masters.

I will be damned if some a-hole is going to spout garbage to my children and get away with it. Their well-being is my responsibility under the law under they're eighteen, which means any teacher in whose custody they are when they're not with me is acting, legally speaking, in loco parentis. As such, what they teach my kids had better be all right with me.

Ergo, if some teacher spouts crap to my kids, he's going to hear about it from me.

You are welcome, of course, to try the same thing vis-à-vis your kids.

 

[TSR]

The children have already been brainwashed by the Wiesels, the Simons, the Zisblatts, and the Spielbergs.

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And what unethical manipulative methods are being used to force conformance to what wishes, and what detriment is caused to the children?

*Then* we can talk about the attempts by denier chimps who, by unethically lying, denying evidence, making up other evidence and promoting hate of a group not because of things each individual did, but because of a perceived membership in that group active *do* try to force conformance to their hate such as Keegstra did.
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The children have already become Holocaust chimps under the control of the Holocaust chimp masters.

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And just what is your definition of "Holocaust chimp" and "Holocaust chimp master"? Can you give an example of each individual along with what behaviour, distinct from that of a denier chimp, causes you to so label them such that the old saw about monkey seeing does not seem to fit quite so well?

This will then lead us back to your double standard whereby The Order, Hunt, and von Brunn get free rides along with Rudolf, Zundel, Irving and Keegstra (not to mention your own posts here), while you whine about things you cannot prove regarding others' behaviour?
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[Clayton Moore]

I will be damned if some a-hole is going to spout garbage to my children and get away with it. Their well-being is my responsibility under the law under they're eighteen, which means any teacher in whose custody they are when they're not with me is acting, legally speaking, in loco parentis. As such, what they teach my kids had better be all right with me.

Ergo, if some teacher spouts crap to my kids, he's going to hear about it from me.

You are welcome, of course, to try the same thing vis-à-vis your kids.

That's classic.

 

[dafydd]

I will be damned if some a-hole is going to spout garbage to my children and get away with it. Their well-being is my responsibility under the law under they're eighteen, which means any teacher in whose custody they are when they're not with me is acting, legally speaking, in loco parentis. As such, what they teach my kids had better be all right with me.

Ergo, if some teacher spouts crap to my kids, he's going to hear about it from me.

You are welcome, of course, to try the same thing vis-à-vis your kids.

To have kids you have to start with a girlfriend. The denier race will die out.

 

[dafydd]

That's classic.

Yup,the truth is always classic.

 

[Chaos]

That's classic.

If the truth bothers you, maybe you shouldn´t spend so much time in reality.

 

[Walter Ego]

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That was "Scandal in a Small Town", and I'm not aware that it was based on anything other than "Evil in Clear River", which aired earlier that year. "Evil" was, however based on the Keegstra case which relied on a quirk of Canadian law regarding hate speech, not Holocaust denial. And he most certainly did *not* have the support of the community.
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My memory of Scandal in a Small Town (first broadcast in 1988) is a little vague but it appears to be a fictionalized version of the Keegstra case sexed up with Raquel Welch and a Harper Valley PTA plotline (the locals who didn't see what the fuss was all about being the Harper Valley hypocrites). The story was transported south of the border and may have been promoted as "based on a true story" which is why I assumed it was based on a U.S. case. My bad.

That being said, have the deniers (most of whom I have on ignore) come up with a single verifiable case of a U.S. academic who has lost his job for promoting Holocaust denial?

 

[Chaos]

So, I take it, the resident Holocaust deniers are fully aware that they cannot take up my challenge, but unsurprisingly do not have the guts to admit it.

 

[TSR]

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Mr. Cox was also in a few eps of the Harper Valley series

Yeah, there was a plot line involving Racquel's choice of clothing, which ran to mini skirts and leotards. I recall a small book of single-pane comics called "The VIPeeWees" whose premise was famous people as children. Can only remember two: one with two housewives discussing a little boy who is pictured apparently giving a rabbit to a little girl "I don't think that Hughie Hefner is *ever* going to get along with others -- he has a new playmate every month, it seems." And then, a scene in a locker room, we only see one of the girls from the back, and she's kinda vamping it up with her hair. One of the other youngun's says "Good Lord, Raquel -- are you *sure* you're only 13?"

Back OT: nope. As the deniers chimps also do, this accusation was dropped and then run from when evidence was asked, in favour of arguably off topic one liners and irrelevant attempts at diversion.
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[Walter Ego]

The holocaust happened. Those who question that it occurred need to be ignored, not given a forum for monomania.

Why is JREF a forum for this stuff?

I'm new here, but please note that I ask only one question and it's not rhetorical. I'm prepared to agree with the rationale, though I can't imagine what it might be.

Thanks.

I would say it's freedom of speech provided you stay withing the forum guidelines.

Some months ago, this sub-forum was being inundated with multiple Holocaust denial threads from the small band of Jew Haters who troll here. (LGR I see has grown somewhat bored with Nazi apologetics and is currently trolling the 9/11 conspiracies forum. Interestingly, but not surprisingly, almost every Hitler Hugger on this thread is also a 9/11 truther.)

I made a modest proposal at that time that this subject be confined to a new sub-forum on the order of "alternate history" or some such classification to erect in effect a cordon sanitaire around the topic. That didn't happen but the moderators in their wisdom did see fit to confine the subject to this general thread which does keep it contained rather than polluting off topic threads.

I was also of the opinion that the deniers should be completely ignored. I choose not to engage them directly but I must say that the forum members who do confront them with logic and real historical facts have shown them up to be the factually challenged ignoramuses they are to which I must say "good job!".

 

[Dogzilla]

Time for some of you to step up and validate that the JDL did indeed threaten Cole on its site.

Tapping foot.

When the JDL redesigned their hate site they wisely deleted the references to the David Cole affair. But you can go to the wayback machine at the internet archive and find snapshots of the old website. Here you'll bits and pieces of the whole sordid affair.

 

[dafydd]

I would say it's freedom of speech provided you stay withing the forum guidelines.

Some months ago, this sub-forum was being inundated with multiple Holocaust denial threads from the small band of Jew Haters who troll here. (LGR I see has grown somewhat bored with Nazi apologetics and is currently trolling the 9/11 conspiracies forum. Interestingly, but not surprisingly, almost every Hitler Hugger on this thread is also a 9/11 truther.)

I made a modest proposal at that time that this subject be confined to a new sub-forum on the order of "alternate history" or some such classification to erect a in effect a cordon sanitaire around the topic. That didn't happen but the moderators in their wisdom did see fit to confine the subject to this general thread which does keep it contained rather than polluting off topic threads.

I was also of the opinion that the deniers should be completely ignored. I choose not to engage them directly but I must say that the forum members who do confront them with logic and real historical facts have shown them up to be the factually challenged ignoramuses they are to which I must say "good job!".

That is an insult to all ignoramuses. There are no words for the stupidity and maliciousness of deniers.

 

[Walter Ego]

And [Keegstra] most certainly did *not* have the support of the community.

It appears you may be wrong on that point, at least according to this article published in 1985 by Canadian journalist Robert Mason Lee. As noted in the quote, the locals even elected Keegstra mayor of the town he taught in. He was not voted out of office until after the scandal broke.

In 1971, Keegstra began teaching the anti-Jewish conspiracy theory to his classes. Given the political history of Alberta, Keegstra’s stature in the community was not sullied by his conversion to anti-Semitism, to the Douglasites, or to amillennialism. On the contrary, it improved. He secured the federal Socred party’s nomination in 1972 and again in 1974. Though he lost to Conservatives each time, he soon became Eckville’s mayor. He had the respect of his students’ parents and chatted with them about his ideas at the curling rink through the long winter months. Few chose to contradict the teacher-mayor with the plain speech and the facts and figures at his fingertips... Keegstra was revered by most of his students.

 

[Dogzilla]

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And the fact that in one case, he was referring to the absence of evidence for one microdetail out of a whole series of events, and in the other the near total absence of evidence for the entire series of events is why it does not.

It doesn't matter if we're talking about one microdetail or a whole series of events. But, in fact, Shermer was not talking about one microdetail regarding either Exodus or the holocaust.

But I could be mistaken. Why don't you tell us which event he was talking about on the microdetail level and which event he was talking about the whole thing?

Or not. It doesn't really matter because absence of evidence is still absence of evidence.

This has been pointed out to you by multiple posters in posts you glossed over to frame this reply.

Multiple posters have tried different ways of explaining that applying one standard to one event but rejecting that standard with another event is not applying a double standard because the two events aren't the same. No matter how you spin it, it's applying a double standard.

All of this in 'support' of your whine that evidence is handled differently for the Holocaust.

You're correct that my example doesn't prove that evidence is handled differently for the holocaust across the board. 'Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence' is a standard that Shermer might use for the holocaust but nobody else does. However the explanations we've seen posted in response to me suggest that Shermer isn't the only person who sees nothing wrong with applying different standards to different events.

It's possible that 'absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence' is a standard Shermer and the rest of you apply to the holocaust and to any number of other events. I don't think that's true because if it were you'd believe a whole range of other things like telepathy, faith healing, UFOs, Bigfoot, etc.--anything for which we have a number of reliable eyewitnesses (who, btw, have no obvious motivation to lie) but for which physical and/or documentary evidence is suspect or absent.

So, if you are going to stick to this comparison and insist that it is valid, you obviously have evidence of the types which document the Holocaust to support the biblical account of the Exodus.

That being the case, please present (just to repeat examples which seem to have caused you enough discomfort to have run from) a contemporary Egyptian document discussing the sudden loss of a group of workers, forensic evidence of the Golden Calf, and at least one non-Biblical account regarding that snake.

That ball is apparently building a nice little ranch-style home in your court...
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Completely irrelevant. Absence of evidence is still absence of evidence. If you think the evidence of the holocaust is rock solid, take it up with Michael Shermer. He's the one who suggested that David Cole has asked some good questions for which it would be nice to have answers. Shermer said these questions didn't have answers, not me.

 

[TSR]

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No, many of his students testified against him in the case, which was 1984. He had been fired back in 1982, and his election to mayor was 1980.

And while the community narrowly failed to impeach him, he was tossed out on his ear at the next election.


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[Dogzilla]

Importantly, anyone fired under such circumstances were high school teachers and not college professors. The teaching of children is a different matter than the teaching of adults.

If what young children or teenagers are taught in school isn't as important as what they're taught in college, why fire the high school teacher for spewing anti-semitism? Kids who learn that Jews are an evil force in the world will be straightened out when they get to college, right?

What's the percentage of adults who attended college again?

 

[TSR]

It doesn't matter if we're talking about one microdetail or a whole series of events. But, in fact, Shermer was not talking about one microdetail regarding either Exodus or the holocaust.

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In fact, Shermer *was* in one case talking about specific questions Cole posed regarding one aspect of the Holocaust, and in the other *was* talking about the Exodus as a while.
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But I could be mistaken. Why don't you tell us which event he was talking about on the microdetail level and which event he was talking about the whole thing?

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See above.
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Or not. It doesn't really matter because absence of evidence is still absence of evidence.

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Except that for the Holocaust as a whole, there *is* no such absence.
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Multiple posters have tried different ways of explaining that applying one standard to one event but rejecting that standard with another event is not applying a double standard because the two events aren't the same. No matter how you spin it, it's applying a double standard.

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No, it's the same standard, applied to different bodies of evidence.
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You're correct that my example doesn't prove that evidence is handled differently for the holocaust across the board.

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Then why do you bring it up in support for your claim that it is?
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'Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence' is a standard that Shermer might use for the holocaust but nobody else does.

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No, he uses it for the specific questions Cole raised. Not the Holocaust as a whole.
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However the explanations we've seen posted in response to me suggest that Shermer isn't the only person who sees nothing wrong with applying different standards to different events.

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Except that no one is applying the standard differently.

The bodies of evidence (or lack thereof) is the difference, not the standard.
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It's possible that 'absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence' is a standard Shermer and the rest of you apply to the holocaust and to any number of other events. I don't think that's true because if it were you'd believe a whole range of other things like telepathy, faith healing, UFOs, Bigfoot, etc.--anything for which we have a number of reliable eyewitnesses (who, btw, have no obvious motivation to lie) but for which physical and/or documentary evidence is suspect or absent.

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Except for the teeny tiny fact that physical or documentary evidence supporting the normative understanding of the Holocaust is neither, as a body, missing or suspect.
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Completely irrelevant. Absence of evidence is still absence of evidence.

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But a huge body of evidence is not a single unreliable source.
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If you think the evidence of the holocaust is rock solid, take it up with Michael Shermer. He's the one who suggested that David Cole has asked some good questions for which it would be nice to have answers.

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And even if I accepted that opinion, you have yourself just acknowledged that it is not "evidence for the Holocaust" as a whole that is not rock solid, but certain questions to which "it would be nice" to have answers.
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Shermer said these questions didn't have answers, not me.

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No, but *you* are the one trying to suggest that "some questions" == "the whole of the body of evidence for the Holocaust".

But since you have stated that this example does not support your whine to begin with, and since you insisted I choose an (actual) historical event for comparison, let's talk about the Great Crime and how that evidence was handled any differently.

The ball is putting in an above-ground swimming pool and deck, I hear...
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[TSR]

If what young children or teenagers are taught in school isn't as important as what they're taught in college ...

< remainder of argument from false premise snipped >

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Just where did anyone state this?
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[Clayton Moore]

If what young children or teenagers are taught in school isn't as important as what they're taught in college, why fire the high school teacher for spewing anti-semitism? Kids who learn that Jews are an evil force in the world will be straightened out when they get to college, right?

What's the percentage of adults who attended college again?

Notice how the elitist chimp masters glaze over the fact the Holocaust hierarchy are liars.

Pushing the liars to the forefront of the Holocaust debate is paramount to exposing the Holocaust myth. Exposing a high profile elitist chimp master like Spielberg will make people question the Holocaust myth.


You can't just mention the lying and move on. You have to hammer at it over and over.