Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Teddy2007]

Here's a video that people need to see, IMO, from CNN about Mignini, posted yesterday.

Sorry I'm not allowed to post URLs yet, so you'll need to cut & paste it.

cnn.com/video/?/video/crime/2011/09/07/ac-mattingly-knox-blame.cnn

 

[shuttlt]

Deliberate contamination is in my view the most likely explanation,

Presumably though that argument is independent of the Q&V stuff? There could have been lots of DNA or a little, or even blood and it could still have been deliberate contamination. Is there any evidence to support this other than working back from knowing the knife can't be the murder weapon and hence what ever is on it can't have gotten there through direct contact with Meredith?

followed slightly behind by accidental contamination plus wishful thinking and the kind of total lack of understanding of scientific methodology you might expect of someone with only an undergraduate degree and no research qualifications.

Accidental contamination could have occurred when the knife was collected,

How could it have occurred when the knife was collected?

or when it was repackaged,

OK.

or when it was in Stefanoni's laboratory.

I thought nothing else relating to the case was tested for 6 days prior to the knife.

There are multiple reasonable options to divide our bets between. I'm sure that the hypothesis that the DNA got there because the knife was used to stab Meredith is less likely than, say, the odds of me winning the lotto, and hence takes up very little of the possibility space, but beyond that how to divide up the remaining space is fuzzy.

Given the assumption that the knife wasn't used in the murder I'd go with it being put there deliberately to manufacture evidence.

You don't go for the pareidolia thing then?

 

[curi0us]

Out of curiosity, how do people feel Meredith's DNA profile came to be found on the knife? Or is the claim that the identification is in fact pareidolia?

I am not at all sure myself, Stefanoni has lied a number of times (luminol prints being blood, changing gloves, using suspect centric method in DNA testing, weirdness with missing documents, etc. . . ) and doesn't seem very competent so I'll side with the independent experts in general but I do wonder about it.

I liked the theory that it was ambient/residual contamination from the previous MK DNA tests but I'm siding with the people I find credible rather than relying upon a clear understanding of the science involved. (ToD and stomach contents I sincerely think I have a good grasp of, the DNA stuff is over my head.)

With the knife there has always been the big problem of it being an incredibly implausible murder weapon. Both RG and RS are known to carry knives and RS even had a knife collection including an extra folding tactical knife that would have perfect to give to AK (for what ever reason) if he thought she needed one. So even if I believed they were guilty I would have serious doubts about the kitchen knife being the murder weapon.

 

[shuttlt]

I am not at all sure myself, Stefanoni has lied a number of times (luminol prints being blood, changing gloves, using suspect centric method in DNA testing, weirdness with missing documents, etc. . . ) and doesn't seem very competent so I'll side with the independent experts in general but I do wonder about it.

So, you think the nothing else tested for 6 days thing is a lie? I'll go with that in preference to deliberate planting of evidence.

 

[shuttlt]

Did C&V do much to undermine the knife? The arguments against it seem to be the same as ever they were.

 

[Kaosium]

So, you think the nothing else tested for 6 days thing is a lie? I'll go with that in preference to deliberate planting of evidence.

Personally I think Amanda's lawyers were right in the beginning, it was just a ploy to get a confession. They're Italian lawyers, they know how it goes, odds are they expected the confession and it would never come into play, like the 'clear-cut' CCTV camera video, or the 'bleach receipts,' the 'lie' about the Harry Potter book, etc. They hit her with the 'false positive' HIV test around the same time, along with nonsense on the TV about washing shoes with Argentinians and the beginning of the Foxy Knoxy mythology. Why would Amanda's lawyers have lied to her parents?

However once it became apparent there was going to be a trial, and the absolution of guilt had taken hold in Perugia, maybe they figured 'why not?' Mignini is the final arbiter of evidence standards, as long as the judge is compliant as they often are, and Giancarlo Massei had already washed his hands so hard it's surprising they didn't find his DNA in Amanda's sink.

Here's the thing, Stefanoni used a threshold of 100 RFUs for every other piece of evidence she tested, except that knife. She'd already failed to find blood, she didn't open it up to try to see if any seeped in, she either didn't check for or never told anyone about the starch, and she's not stupid--so why'd she break all the rules for that one knife?

She had to know she'd be lucky to get many if any peaks that even approached half her standard on every other item. That damn thing was found in a drawer besides, if it had been found somewhere suspicious like it may have been hidden or disposed of, I could kinda see it, but from Raffaele's drawer? She knew she only had one shot, which is another reason it couldn't stand scrutiny, so why'd she take it? It's not even the sort of knife one would expect to be used for the murder, it wasn't found at or near the murder site, and it didn't match the wounds.

That's why I think those lawyers in the beginning were right, and as to how that electropherogram was generated, I'd guess that's why those experts--and eventually Comodi--were so interested in the negative controls, and just how long it had been since the machine had been used, even after Hellmann said it didn't matter as the contamination could have happened before it got to the lab. I suspect that's what that subtext was all about.

Eh, just pondering, it never made sense to me why they'd even pretend that knife was involved in the murder. I guess it hardly matters now, as it safely decorates the muck of the Tiber.

 

[Kaosium]

Did C&V do much to undermine the knife? The arguments against it seem to be the same as ever they were.

The DNA on it no longer exists, that was the only reason it was ever considered remotely connected to the murder. They put it back in Raffaele's drawer, figuratively speaking, where it spent the night of the murder. Or in my imagination, it rusts at the bottom of the Tiber. If anyone is arguing it as evidence still, they're delusional.

 

[curi0us]

So, you think the nothing else tested for 6 days thing is a lie? I'll go with that in preference to deliberate planting of evidence.

Yes, the 6 days gap seemed to contradict Stefaonini's earlier statements (in Massei) but I don't have the records to prove it so it is just a guess. It seems like if she wanted to plant evidence she could have just rubbed a little MK blood on the knife blade and not bothered with the non-blood LCN weirdness so I am inclined to think it was probably some kind mistake, but again, I'm really just guessing.

 

[shuttlt]

Personally I think Amanda's lawyers were right in the beginning, it was just a ploy to get a confession. They're Italian lawyers, they know how it goes, odds are they expected the confession and it would never come into play, like the 'clear-cut' CCTV camera video, or the 'bleach receipts,' the 'lie' about the Harry Potter book, etc. They hit her with the 'false positive' HIV test around the same time, along with nonsense on the TV about washing shoes with Argentinians and the beginning of the Foxy Knoxy mythology. Why would Amanda's lawyers have lied to her parents?

However once it became apparent there was going to be a trial, and the absolution of guilt had taken hold in Perugia, maybe they figured 'why not?' Mignini is the final arbiter of evidence standards, as long as the judge is compliant as they often are, and Giancarlo Massei had already washed his hands so hard it's surprising they didn't find his DNA in Amanda's sink.

Here's the thing, Stefanoni used a threshold of 100 RFUs for every other piece of evidence she tested, except that knife. She'd already failed to find blood, she didn't open it up to try to see if any seeped in, she either didn't check for or never told anyone about the starch, and she's not stupid--so why'd she break all the rules for that one knife?

She had to know she'd be lucky to get many if any peaks that even approached half her standard on every other item. That damn thing was found in a drawer besides, if it had been found somewhere suspicious like it may have been hidden or disposed of, I could kinda see it, but from Raffaele'sdrawer? She knew she only had one shot, which is another reason it couldn't stand scrutiny, so why'd she take it? It's not even the sort of knife one would expect to be used for the murder, it wasn't found at or near the murder site, and it didn't match the wounds.

That's why I think those lawyers in the beginning were right, and as to how that electropherogram was generated, I'd guess that's why those experts--and eventually Comodi--were so interested in the negative controls, and just how long it had been since the machine had been used, even after Hellmann said it didn't matter as the contamination could have happened before it got to the lab. I suspect that's what that subtext was all about.

Eh, just pondering, it never made sense to me why they'd even pretend that knife was involved in the murder. I guess it hardly matters now, as it safely decorates the muck of the Tiber.

Surely all this is still reasoning back from knowing that the knife isn't the murder weapon for reasons that have nothing to do with the DNA work? Has anything new about the knife come out of C&V? The only thing I'm dimly aware of is the 6 day thing. I guess the starch thing is kind of new too.

 

[Kaosium]

Here's a video that people need to see, IMO, from CNN about Mignini, posted yesterday.

Sorry I'm not allowed to post URLs yet, so you'll need to cut & paste it.

The link
The whole Mignini interview was even better, but best yet was the entire transcript translated and posted at TJMK that they did under the assumption it had been edited to his disadvantage, which they loudly proclaimed throughout the ether.

Until people started quoting the juiciest stuff, which had been left out of the televised interview. Then I heard it disappeared from TJMK, though I didn't actually go digging through the offal to try to find it. I especially liked the part where he insisted digging up bodies to check pants sizes and haircuts was justified still, and how he couldn't see what was wrong with illegally starting secret investigations on people, after all, they'd never know!

That pretty much sums up Giuliani Mignini.

 

[shuttlt]

The DNA on it no longer exists, that was the only reason it was ever considered remotely connected to the murder. They put it back in Raffaele's drawer, figuratively speaking, where it spent the night of the murder. Or in my imagination, it rusts at the bottom of the Tiber. If anyone is arguing it as evidence still, they're delusional.

So are you saying that there was DNA on it, but C&V have shown somehow that it was due to contamination, or that there wasn't any DNA on it and the supposed result was pareidolia?

I don't understand what the significance of there supposedly no longer being any DNA on the knife is. This was the claim at the original trial, so surely nothing has changed there.

 

[shuttlt]

Yes, the 6 days gap seemed to contradict Stefaonini's earlier statements (in Massei) but I don't have the records to prove it so it is just a guess. It seems like if she wanted to plant evidence she could have just rubbed a little MK blood on the knife blade and not bothered with the non-blood LCN weirdness so I am inclined to think it was probably some kind mistake, but again, I'm really just guessing.

OK. I don't want to argue that this is/isn't what happened... but I don't see that C&V have either helped or hindered this claim. If the judge was inclined to believe the DNA on the knife was due to contamination prior to C&V he's got to believe Stef is lying about the 6 days to maintain that belief, if he was disinclined to believe it prior to C&V surely he still is?

 

[RoseMontague]

So, you think the nothing else tested for 6 days thing is a lie? I'll go with that in preference to deliberate planting of evidence.

It's interesting this was reported as some big news at the end of the 30 July hearing and not even mentioned this week, at least from the reports I have seen. The transcripts when they are released may give us more information.

My personal opinion is a 6 day or 6 hour gap makes no difference. The knife was never proven to be the murder weapon from a logical standpoint or from a forensic standpoint. Whatever DNA result <Dr Stefi obtained was never shown to have come from something, blood, flesh, or skin. <Dr Stefi didn't even bother to look at the knife under the scope or she would have found it had not even been cleaned. The theory behind Amanda carrying that knife around was pretty dumb and the various explanations as to why it was returned to the drawer after the murder just silly.

The knife was not the murder weapon and there was never Meredith's DNA on it. How did it get there? It didn't. It was never there. <Dr Stefi has amply demonstrated both her bias and her incompetence. Take your pick. It makes no difference, the DNA result is in the trash can.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Surely all this is still reasoning back from knowing that the knife isn't the murder weapon for reasons that have nothing to do with the DNA work? Has anything new about the knife come out of C&V? The only thing I'm dimly aware of is the 6 day thing. I guess the starch thing is kind of new too.

New things?
They noted the knife is not exactly super clean.
They sampled the obvious area to test for blood or traces that Stefi neglected - where the blade meets the handle.
They did a few different tests for blood, all negative.
They specifically looked for human cells of any kind - another thing Stefi failed to do - and found only starch.
They quantified the the extracts and found no DNA.

They noted that Stefi's paperwork and data were incomplete and contradicted by her own testimony, but that was known before.

 

[shuttlt]

The knife was not the murder weapon and there was never Meredith's DNA on it. How did it get there? It didn't. It was never there. <Dr Stefi has amply demonstrated both her bias and her incompetence. Take your pick. It makes no difference, the DNA result is in the trash can.

Again, this is reasoning backwards from knowing the knife isn't the murder weapon. This argument doesn't seem to have changed much since 2009. I genuinely fail to see why it is significantly more or less in the trash can now than it was previously.

 

[shuttlt]

New things?
They noted the knife is not exactly super clean.

I guess so. Is there any reason to believe it couldn't have gotten dirty between the murder and collection?

They sampled the obvious area to test for blood or traces that Stefi neglected - where the blade meets the handle.
They did a few different tests for blood, all negative.
They specifically looked for human cells of any kind - another thing Stefi failed to do - and found only starch.
They quantified the the extracts and found no DNA.

It's been agreed for ages that there is no detectable blood or flesh, this doesn't strike me as new.

They noted that Stefi's paperwork and data were incomplete and contradicted by her own testimony, but that was known before.

OK.

 

[Kaosium]

Surely all this is still reasoning back from knowing that the knife isn't the murder weapon for reasons that have nothing to do with the DNA work? Has anything new about the knife come out of C&V? The only thing I'm dimly aware of is the 6 day thing. I guess the starch thing is kind of new too.

Read it for yourself here the bolding is inherent.

There was never any 'DNA' produced in court, all that amounted to was the 'piece of paper' from Stefanoni saying she scientifically determined that there was DNA there and it had been properly handled and thus was not the result of mishap after the murder. Now that 'piece of paper,' and thus that DNA, no longer exists. It was never the murder weapon with that piece of paper, now they can't even fool gullible jurors with it.

In the Italian system with a compliant judge, which they all tend to be in the trial of the first instance, the prosecutor can produce used toilet paper in court and say it is evidence of bloody murder. All the defense can do is say he pulled it out of his ass and 'analyze' the stinky stains and say it tested negative for blood, all the time having to be careful to avoid a calunnia charge, as the defense expert was threatened by Comodi with recently. So it's up to the jurors who to believe, and who do you suppose they often side with when the discussion goes over their head?

I think there's some level that many just don't get how eminently corruptible a system like that is, because in their own systems nothing like that could ever happen. Did you see that quote by Comodi? I can't remember if it was the EDFs or the negative blood tests, but she just said 'we didn't need it to make our case' thus it was never disclosed.

There's no longer any DNA on the knife, that's why they threw such a fit yesterday, they wouldn't have freaked if it wasn't important. Do you remain unconvinced, perhaps think that 'DNA' still exists whether the court calls it legal or not?

 

[Matthew Best]

When the innocentisti were protesting about the bra clasp and the 42 days it was knocking around the room, they were told that the 42 days was irrelevant as DNA could last for years and really old cases had been solved using DNA. Now when the knife is not tested until 6 days after some other test, 6 days is apparently all it takes for any residual DNA to be completely eliminated. Go figure.

 

[shuttlt]

Kaosium,

So it comes down to a claim that Stefanoni is/was lying? This still feels like the same argument from 2009.

 

[Mary_H]

<snip>Eh, just pondering, it never made sense to me why they'd even pretend that knife was involved in the murder. I guess it hardly matters now, as it safely decorates the muck of the Tiber.

Tonight, Anderson Cooper asked Curt Knox how this all could have happened and how it has been able to go on for so long, if the prosecution really has no case. Meanwhile, this guy, whom halides1 cited earlier today, wrote, "And certainly, if the Italian authorities were careful, dastardly planners they would have been more circumspect about releasing photos of dirty rubber gloves handling the bra clasp of the decedent."

It strikes me how difficult it is going to be, once Amanda and Raffaele are freed, to give short answers to these kinds of questions and respond to this type of disbelief, which most of us still share. Those who are just waking up to the case don't realize that dissecting the components of this perfect storm has taken up hours of research, analysis and writing over three-plus years for many people. And we STILL don't get how in the world the Perugian police thought they could get away with it!