Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[LondonJohn]

Hahaha! Clouseau now tweets this:

BLNadeau Barbie Latza Nadeau
Molto speculation 2day on #amandaknox trial w/emotions running high. End of day no1 really knows how this is going to play out. #patience


Compare and contrast with this tweet from her, not eight hours previously:

BLNadeau Barbie Latza Nadeau
That's all for today from the courtroom in Perugia. Back the 23rd of September for the big finish. Looks like Knox will walk #amandaknox


Nadeau truly is a clueless idiot, with seemingly endless capacity to demonstrate her lack of intelligence or analytical skills. I can't help thinking that her most recent tweet is in direct response to some *ahem* pressure placed upon her from certain pro-guilt commentators. Tant pis! Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose!

 

[HumanityBlues]

Get the "confirmation bias" cut and pastes ready, and add this to the ridicule sent to Lowe.

Nevertheless, IMHO,

1) Sollecito suddenly felt a very strange necessity and timing to extemporaneously come forth with his ludicrous cock and bollocks fabrication about pricking Meredith's finger with that knife in question.

2) That "stupid kid" story revealed more to me about what he thereby confirmed was *at one time* in sufficient quantity on that blade than any subsequent tests needed to.

3)Add to this the defendant documented anxiety about "what might be found on the knife" and then believe and send to leader Lowe what you may.

haha

Nothing you say matters anymore. It's over.

By the way, I was reading on the stupid site just now. Their moderator thinks that regardless of the outcome Amanda will have to stay in jail because of the Calunnia charges! Can you believe that? That is from the moderator. Credibility=none. Some of the so called skeptics here should really question how they were taken in by such buffoonery.

 

[HumanityBlues]

Somehow I don't see the judge being persuaded by the fact that Raffaele said some pretty "dumb" stuff. I would say he has long since served enough time for that.

Raffaele is about to go free, pilot. Of this I have great certainty. It's not too late for you to come over from the *dark side*.

What Raffaele said doesn't matter because that knife was not the murder weapon.

Love your starring and quoting by the way. Brilliant.

 

[smkovalinksy]

This CNN report is interesting regarding the Comodi situation:

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/09/07/italy.knox.appeal/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

The report contains the following passage:




Reading between the lines, I think that what happened today goes something like this:

1) Comodi had a conversation with Pisa and Chance first thing in the morning, in which she made the accusations of bias against Hellmann, Zanetti and the court.

2) Pisa and Chance both realised the significance of these inflammatory allegations, and reported on them: Pisa in print (Standard and Mail) and Chance on Twitter.

3) The Prosecutors' Office saw the articles and realised what a horrible mistake Comodi had made.

4) The Prosecutors' Office decided to try to diffuse the situation, and either contacted CNN (and probably also the Mail and Standard) or Chance/Pisa directly, with an attempt to finesse the issue.

5) The finesse that the Prosecutors' Office chose to try to apply was that prosecutors realised there was a possibility of acquittal, but that they (collectively) were still confident of an acquittal.

6) The Prosecutors' Office hoped that this would diffuse and detract from Comodi's extraordinary outburst earlier in the day. I suspect they leaned strongly on either Chance or CNN to print the "clarification".

Unfortunately, the cat is now out of the bag. It's abundantly clear that Comodi had some sort of moment of madness earlier today, in which she stood in front of journalists, and (probably in a state of high emotion) accused the court of being biased towards the defence.

I now judge more than ever that Comodi will be removed from this case before the next court session, and that she will probably face serious disciplinary issues (and possibly legal issues) over what she said. The apparent fact that the Prosecutors' Office has tried to manipulate the situation by issuing bogus "clarifications" only serves to make it clear that senior figures in Perugia/Umbria prosecution realise just what a grotesque error Comodi made today.

Right, there have been no retractions, and Pisa and other journalist made global headlines of her rant, which still stands, along with the articles it spawned.

 

[smkovalinksy]

Hahaha! Clouseau now tweets this:

BLNadeau Barbie Latza Nadeau
Molto speculation 2day on #amandaknox trial w/emotions running high. End of day no1 really knows how this is going to play out. #patience


Compare and contrast with this tweet from her, not eight hours previously:

BLNadeau Barbie Latza Nadeau
That's all for today from the courtroom in Perugia. Back the 23rd of September for the big finish. Looks like Knox will walk #amandaknox


Nadeau truly is a clueless idiot, with seemingly endless capacity to demonstrate her lack of intelligence or analytical skills. I can't help thinking that her most recent tweet is in direct response to some *ahem* pressure placed upon her from certain pro-guilt commentators. Tant pis! Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose!

Right: Nadeau, like Comodi, let her true feelings slip, and then later backpedaled. They are both silly women.

 

[Diocletus]

3)Add to this the defendant documented anxiety about "what might be found on the knife"

Turns out he was spot on about that. They DID come up with phoney DNA evidence! I guess he knew the dishonest cops and prosecutors all too well by that time.

 

[katy_did]

Well, I hear what you're saying, and I never suggested it was a given that an experienced and fully-dedicated defence lawyer would have got acquittals in Massei's court. But I do think strongly that despite Bongiorno's evident skills, intellect and courtroom experience, more could have been done in the first trial. And it's undeniable that Bongiorno's lack of availability has had a hugely material effect on the speed of the whole trials process.

I therefore remain firmly of the view that Bongiorno should never have taken the case: primarily because she had a prior full-time job to attend to, but also because she had no prior experience in murder trials. I think that Sollecito (and by extension Knox) would have fared better if Sollecito had been represented by a top Italian criminal defence lawyer with murder-trial experience, who was also able to devote him/herself pretty much full-time to the case. I certainly think they could not have fared much worse.

But I caveat all of this by repeating what I said previously: Bongiorno clearly appears to be the most switched-on and effective of the four defence lawyers (although, as I also said, I don't think she's up against particularly stiff competition from the other three). And I agree that Massei seems to have thrown logic and reason out of the window in the way he conducted and ruled in the first trial. But there were still a lot of often-basic mistakes made by the defence, in my view. There's simply no escaping this sad fact. Fortunately, the mistakes now seem to be being robustly rectified in the appeal. However, I can't help but wonder how much of this might be due to the new legal consultants (notably Ted Simon) who've been brought in to provide behind-the-scenes legal advice.

Agreed that if she couldn't devote enough time to the case that would have been a problem - I'm still not totally clear how true that claim is, though. It's been said that the first trial was slow because of Bongiorno's schedule, but I've also heard that trials in Italy are just very slow anyway (the appeal has lasted close to a year, after all). So I'm not certain how much the pace of the trial really was down to Bongiorno, and how much it's just the norm for criminal trials in Italy.

Another point is that I doubt the other lawyers working on the case were devoting themselves to it full-time, anyway; most likely they're all handling a number of cases alongside this one.

In terms of the murder-trial experience, I'm not 100% certain but I think that part of Bongiorno's defence of Andreotti dealt with his alleged involvement in the murder of this guy? (I'd acknowledge it's a different kind of case, given the Mafia links). At any rate, I can't really think of any instance in particular where her lack of experience has been an issue.

 

[katy_did]

Even when I believed Amanda and Raffaele may have been culpable in the murder, it boggled my mind that the knife was accepted as evidence of anything but cooking. It's stunning that instead of questioning the culpability of that poor kitchen knife, Mignini concocted his elaborate, nonsensical multi-knife, multi-party theory of the crime.

If there is one thing I'm sure about in this whole mess it's that the knife is innocent. It has only been propped up by the prosecution to justify some deeply flawed logic.

Same here. Even when I thought they might have been guilty, the knife was always obviously bogus. How could they use the knife as evidence when they hadn't even proven it was the murder weapon - when they had evidence to suggest it wasn't the murder weapon? Boggles the mind.

 

[smkovalinksy]

This CNN report is interesting regarding the Comodi situation:

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/09/07/italy.knox.appeal/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

The report contains the following passage:




Reading between the lines, I think that what happened today goes something like this:

1) Comodi had a conversation with Pisa and Chance first thing in the morning, in which she made the accusations of bias against Hellmann, Zanetti and the court.

2) Pisa and Chance both realised the significance of these inflammatory allegations, and reported on them: Pisa in print (Standard and Mail) and Chance on Twitter.

3) The Prosecutors' Office saw the articles and realised what a horrible mistake Comodi had made.

4) The Prosecutors' Office decided to try to diffuse the situation, and either contacted CNN (and probably also the Mail and Standard) or Chance/Pisa directly, with an attempt to finesse the issue.

5) The finesse that the Prosecutors' Office chose to try to apply was that prosecutors realised there was a possibility of acquittal, but that they (collectively) were still confident of an acquittal.

6) The Prosecutors' Office hoped that this would diffuse and detract from Comodi's extraordinary outburst earlier in the day. I suspect they leaned strongly on either Chance or CNN to print the "clarification".

Unfortunately, the cat is now out of the bag. It's abundantly clear that Comodi had some sort of moment of madness earlier today, in which she stood in front of journalists, and (probably in a state of high emotion) accused the court of being biased towards the defence.

I now judge more than ever that Comodi will be removed from this case before the next court session, and that she will probably face serious disciplinary issues (and possibly legal issues) over what she said. The apparent fact that the Prosecutors' Office has tried to manipulate the situation by issuing bogus "clarifications" only serves to make it clear that senior figures in Perugia/Umbria prosecution realise just what a grotesque error Comodi made today.

Yes, the quote stands solid, and is being used in many pieces; here is the latest from People magazine:

Now, in an appeals trial, Judge Claudio Pratillo Hellman in Perugia, Italy, rejected a prosecution request to introduce new records on the original tests and to hear from a new witness, CNN reports.

The decision was a blow to the prosecution and a major victory for the defense of Knox, 24, and her former boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, 27, who had been convicted after Kercher's semi-naked body was found in the house they shared in Perugia.

"There is an ill wind blowing in this case," Prosecutor Manuela Comodi said, according to The Telegraph. "The judge and his assistant are clearly against us. I can see both Knox and Sollecito being freed, which will be a shame as they are both involved."

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20526358,00.html

 

[RoseMontague]

Same here. Even when I thought they might have been guilty, the knife was always obviously bogus. How could they use the knife as evidence when they hadn't even proven it was the murder weapon - when they had evidence to suggest it wasn't the murder weapon? Boggles the mind.

Ahab's compliments to ye, katy_d. There's surely an ill wind blowing Mignini's way.

Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering whale; to the last I grapple with thee; from hell’s heart I stab at thee; for hate’s sake I spit my last breath at thee. Sink all coffins and all hearses to one common pool! and since neither can be mine, let me then tow to pieces, while still chasing thee, though tied to thee, thou damned whale! Thus, I give up the spear!

 

[RoseMontague]

S' what's the evidence left fer guilt. I see Michael at dotnet is going to pen an article on this. Here is my take:

1. Amanda was persuaded by the cops that Patrick did it, he was a bad man.

2. There are some prints and blobs revealed by Luminol, one looks actually like a foot and could be Amanda's if her second toe was 8.3 inches shorter. These Luminol things tested one way for blood, another way for not blood, they don't seem to have any pattern or connection, and most don't even contain the victim's DNA.

3. Mr Memory. Couldn't remember an interview he gave on the TeeVee, but can recall what Amanda wore in 1969. Unfortunately when the cops asked him about after the murder he couldn't remember. And when did remember he had somehow forgotten that he did remember the first time because he asked an employee about it but not the first time he couldn't remember. Anyway he helped the court figure out that their own Inspector was a lying liar when he said Mr Memory didn't remember. The point is somebody was hangin around the bleach area of the store, but didn't buy anything. Not that they needed to as they had some already at home. That they didn't use either.

7. Miracle Ear Lady. Some say she is a little crazy but the truth is she might have hear an accident, or even a scream, or even a Cat fight. She's not exactly certain on the day and time, but whatever, it must have something to do with it because she heard the sound of many (not bare )feet running very far away. Without staying to clean up. Must have had time to put some shoes on but it happened real fast like.

11. Some other scream lady. Must have also been one of those amazing ear peoples because she hear two people arguing in Italian right before she heard a scream. The authorities should have investigated that one to find out who it was.

5. Cell phone records. These are really key. Amanda called Patrick not from Raffaele's place in 2 places and from his place in three other places. I am not sure but that sounds awful suspicious to me. And although Amanda admits her phone was turned off we also know Raffaele must have done the same because he had one whole call he failed to answer. OMG.

6. Amanda didn't flush all the time and had a vibrator and condoms, did a cartwheel, hugged and kissed her boyfriend, shook her head and claimed some ex Romanian weightlifter turned cop might have cuffed her on the head a time or two. She must be lying, guilty, and probably insane.

4. Amanda sent an email and said some dumb things, Raffaele said some stupid load of bull stuff and both were treated like criminals. I guess they must be criminals then.

17. Amanda had a lamp that was not where it was supposed to be.

5. Amanda had DNA in her bathroom. Rudy left a footprint on the bathmat but it could be Sollecito's with a little fudgerry and a blind man picking out the better match.

5. Both Raffaele and Amanda and even Meredith had these computers that fried themselves when the cops went to look for evidence of their guilt. Pretty sneaky by the computer nerd if you ask me.

I sure I am forgetting some. Probably number 5.

 

[Diocletus]

S' what's the evidence left fer guilt. I see Michael at dotnet is going to pen an article on this. Here is my take:

1. Amanda was persuaded by the cops that Patrick did it, he was a bad man.

2. There are some prints and blobs revealed by Luminol, one looks actually like a foot and could be Amanda's if her second toe was 8.3 inches shorter. These Luminol things tested one way for blood, another way for not blood, they don't seem to have any pattern or connection, and most don't even contain the victim's DNA.

3. Mr Memory. Couldn't remember an interview he gave on the TeeVee, but can recall what Amanda wore in 1969. Unfortunately when the cops asked him about after the murder he couldn't remember. And when did remember he had somehow forgotten that he did remember the first time because he asked an employee about it but not the first time he couldn't remember. Anyway he helped the court figure out that their own Inspector was a lying liar when he said Mr Memory didn't remember. The point is somebody was hangin around the bleach area of the store, but didn't buy anything. Not that they needed to as they had some already at home. That they didn't use either.

7. Miracle Ear Lady. Some say she is a little crazy but the truth is she might have hear an accident, or even a scream, or even a Cat fight. She's not exactly certain on the day and time, but whatever, it must have something to do with it because she heard the sound of many (not bare )feet running very far away. Without staying to clean up. Must have had time to put some shoes on but it happened real fast like.

11. Some other scream lady. Must have also been one of those amazing ear peoples because she hear two people arguing in Italian right before she heard a scream. The authorities should have investigated that one to find out who it was.

5. Cell phone records. These are really key. Amanda called Patrick not from Raffaele's place in 2 places and from his place in three other places. I am not sure but that sounds awful suspicious to me. And although Amanda admits her phone was turned off we also know Raffaele must have done the same because he had one whole call he failed to answer. OMG.

6. Amanda didn't flush all the time and had a vibrator and condoms, did a cartwheel, hugged and kissed her boyfriend, shook her head and claimed some ex Romanian weightlifter turned cop might have cuffed her on the head a time or two. She must be lying, guilty, and probably insane.

4. Amanda sent an email and said some dumb things, Raffaele said some stupid load of bull stuff and both were treated like criminals. I guess they must be criminals then.

17. Amanda had a lamp that was not where it was supposed to be.

5. Amanda had DNA in her bathroom. Rudy left a footprint on the bathmat but it could be Sollecito's with a little fudgerry and a blind man picking out the better match.

5. Both Raffaele and Amanda and even Meredith had these computers that fried themselves when the cops went to look for evidence of their guilt. Pretty sneaky by the computer nerd if you ask me.

I sure I am forgetting some. Probably number 5.

LOL. That's hilarious.

You did forget one (no. 2, not no. 5):

There was a poopy in the potty. It might have slid down and gotten flushed. Or not. Raffaele did not spot the poopy. But Stef refrigerated that poo and then PCR'd it.

 

[Diocletus]

LOL. That's hilarious.

You did forget one (no. 2, not no. 5):

There was a poopy in the potty. It might have slid down and gotten flushed. Or not. Raffaele did not spot the poopy. But Stef refrigerated that poo and then PCR'd it.

Also, don't forget that the superwitness, Rudy, said they did it. Well, anyway, Mignini read a letter where Rudy said they did it. And Rudy is only in jail for 16 years. They're in jail for 51 years altogether. So on a relative scale, he's obviously a least 3 times as reliable as they are. And Mignini says that he says they did it.

 

[billyryan]

Well thought out Rose: by a country mile the clearest best thought out theory of the crime so far,how come the guilters were not able to put together anything near as good in four years of trying

 

[Grinder]

8.3 inches shorter - could you show us that footprint

 

[Diocletus]

Also, don't forget that the superwitness, Rudy, said they did it. Well, anyway, Mignini read a letter where Rudy said they did it. And Rudy is only in jail for 16 years. They're in jail for 51 years altogether. So on a relative scale, he's obviously a least 3 times as reliable as they are. And Mignini says that he says they did it.

Also:

Amanda said Meredith always locked her door. But Filomena said Meredith never locked her door. One of them is wrong and that person is G-U-I-L-T-Y.

 

[Grinder]

The PR.

Ah, she had phone numbers in her phone and one paper reported that three years later the owner was convicted of drug sales.

The PR.

She hosted the wildest party in the UDUB's history requiring twenty cars to roll, well one if you read the police report. The party was so wild that it was a major subject of conversation where PG was hanging out.

The PR

She punched a boy when she was 8 defending her sister.

PR.

One commentator on the SLOG said she pranked someone.

PR

She was photographed with a machine gun.

PR

She bought knives in Germany.

The PR.

She jumped into a mud puddle.

 

[Grinder]

I've always wondered how Filomena knew the door was never locked. Did she try the doors whenever they were closed?

 

[Katody Matrass]

LOL, Rose, you're killing me



In other news, Latza's hilarious frantic attempts at damage control, as she just realised that by accidentally being sincere she alienated her whole target market, i.e. bunnies and kittens.

ETA: Alienating bunnies is not a good idea, as they tend to react with death threats

Killer Bunny

 

[RoseMontague]

The PR.

Ah, she had phone numbers in her phone and one paper reported that three years later the owner was convicted of drug sales.

The PR.

She hosted the wildest party in the UDUB's history requiring twenty cars to roll, well one if you read the police report. The party was so wild that it was a major subject of conversation where PG was hanging out.

The PR

She punched a boy when she was 8 defending her sister.

PR.

One commentator on the SLOG said she pranked someone.

PR

She was photographed with a machine gun.

PR

She bought knives in Germany.

The PR.

She jumped into a mud puddle.

All these years and the prank was never shown to be anything other than a comment made on a blog.

If there was more to the drug dealer on speed dial thing we would have heard more on that one as well.

The claim I still see constantly is that Amanda was on the verge of a confession with Migmeani but her lawyer stepped in.

The washing machine, Harold Portnoy book, missing sweater, bleach receipt,
waiting outside with mop in hand, etc and so on.

The other claim I still see constantly is that everybody in Perugia knows that Anita and Biff were heavy and serious drug dealers/users.