Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Diocletus]

I don't know about introducing new evidence but here is an article where new testing on evidence is asked and contains criticism of the independent experts' report:

http://www.libero-news.it/articolo.jsp?id=816139

They're not going to do more testing. What would be the point. The knife had no blood on it and was not cleaned. So if Kercher's DNA comes out of the machine, then it's not because she was stabbed with the knife. That's true no matter how many tests are run.

 

[katy_did]

The obvious that comes to mind is that the contamination most likely occurred by touch transfer during one of the many sloppy searches and rummagings.

I think the "133 samples" argument is misleading and distorts the truth. The important information that it omits is:
How many of those samples gave no results because of incorrect collection/storage/testing?
What was the distribution of those samples and how does it correlate with the areas and items where we would expect to find Raffaele's DNA?

We already know that most of those 133 represent traces taken from exhibits collected in Meredith's room.
We also know that of the few times he was in the cottage, most of the time Raffaele spent in the common area. He cooked and ate in the kitchen and most probably washed hands in the adjacent bathroom. On the morning after the murder he looked around the rooms and tried to force Meredith's door.

Where do we expect to find his DNA? First - On the things he touched - kitchen utensils, bathroom faucet, doors, door handles, ETA: the refrigerator . Second - on the used clothing and underwear that Amanda left in her room.
Was any of those sampled for DNA?
Lets take for example the kitchen/living-room. According to the index of evidence only the cigarette butts and samples of presumed blood from the floor were collected.
From the large bathroom - only the feces, dirty toilet paper and contents of the washing machine.

From Amanda's room - again "presumed blood" from various surfaces plus a pair of socks (!).

Basically, the things they decided to test outside of the murder room were very unlikely to have Raffaele's DNA and there were things they left behind that very likely had his DNA.

Agreed - most of the samples they took were obviously from things which were linked to or could have been linked to the murder (I think Massei says the majority of samples were from visible bloodstains). It's not as if they set out to find all the objects in the flat which could have contained Raffaele's DNA and tested them; they naturally only tested things which could be prove to be evidence.

It also seems like an argument where the prosecution get to win either way: if they had found Raffaele's DNA in any of the bloody traces they tested, I really doubt they'd now be acknowledging that contamination might have happened! Any other trace of Raffaele's DNA in Meredith's bedroom, the bathroom, the corridor or Filomena's room would be presented as evidence of his guilt. So for the prosecution expert (or Stefanoni, if it was her) to suggest that the lack of Sollecito's DNA in other samples somehow rules out contamination (and thus to imply presence of his DNA would support the contamination theory) is disingenuous on that level as well.

 

[Ammonitida]

No, you're right. It's nothing more exclusive than this level of differentiation. I suspect that Sollecito's haplotype might either have been R1b (as you note) or I2. And both of these groups constitute many millions of individuals alive today.

I doubt it would be R1b since that's like 50% of Italy. IIRC, this haplotype was checked against a database of like 30k (5k of whom were Italians) and they found no matches. It must be relatively uncommon, at least in Italy.

 

[Kaosium]

Haplotype as in the western European R1b for example? Or is it something more exclusive?

That's a haplogroup, though it does appear to get called a haplotype some places, including once in Massei, though that could have been a translation error. Here's a basic overview of what it amounts to. It's also useful for genealogy purposes, notably the Thomas Jefferson-Sally Hemmings mystery they detail.

It's other primary use is (often) for sexual assaults, as it will 'unmask' all the male DNA, as females don't have the y-chromosome. In this one they found at least three males on the clasp, and as Halides' link suggests that could be more. Now the question is, did Raffaele's y-haplotype actually show up on the clasp, as the experts did say it was present, at least that's the way I read this: (Thanks to the wonderful work of Komponisto and Katy-Did!)

The genetic profile thus derives from a mixture of unidentified biological substances (it will be recalled that no test was performed with a view toward revealing the presence of flaking cells, and so the claim is without scientific basis), whose larger component is represented by the DNA of the victim and whose smaller component is represented by DNA from several individuals (cf. autosomic STRs) of male sex (cf. Y chromosome), of which one of the Y haplotypes corresponds to the Y haplotype of Raffaele Sollecito

However, when you have a soup of allele's like that, you get extra 'chances' to put together a profile that may well 'correspond' with several different y-haplotypes, however usually by relying on things like peak height they try to dig the signal of one person out of the noise of the others' alleles, and I don't know for sure if that's what they did here or not, although the passage seems to suggest it. Of the minor contributors, it appears the ones 'corresponding' to Raffaele's y-haplotype were the strongest, though in the autosomic profile the ones putatively Raffaele's and everyone else are dwarfed by Meredith's. However sometimes lower amounts of DNA produce erratic large peaks, and Raffaele's putative percentage of the mixture is at the margins of the low template range where allele's are more prone to chaotically shrink and even get 'dropped' so I don't see how it could be 100% anyway.

Even if it matched perfectly, a y-haplotype isn't a perfect indicator of Raffaele's presence regardless, as it could also be someone with a similar geneology, which is limited in one regard by mutations so it can't go back all the way of course, but someone with a common ancestor not that far back, notably someone from the same area of Italy, might well share it with Raffaele, some of these are relatively common. It just so happens Raffaele's is not in the online database and there's only seventy entries for his home province of Puglia so it might well be that it's not covered that well. You'll note if you look at the 'latest news' that they just got around to Australia which seems odd. There's somewhere on the order of 2 million or so males in Puglia and of course he may well have common ancestors from just about anywhere in Italy (and beyond) regardless.

 

[charlatan]

My point in linking that particular article was to show that the gloves have come off and it appears it is an all out fight between the prosecution and the independent experts regardless of their appointment by Hellmann.

Which is essentially an all-out fight between the prosecution and the court. Not an enviable position for the prosecution by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Grinder]

OMG - Amanda fell asleep during the trial. Perhaps Miss Communication, the professional behaviorist, will write a piece on the sign of guilt sleeping in court is.

 

[JREF2010]

I don't think it is very likely that the judge is going to ask for an expert review of his experts' review. It is just posturing on the part of <Dr Stefi and Maresca. I can't understand what difference it makes where the rye in that starch was grown. Just my opinion.

I agree, and even if 5 more experts review this blade, there are no blood traces, and it hasn't been cleaned.

So the prosecution, even if they refuse to agree, they still must convince everyone this blade has stabbed someone in the neck, and didn't get any blood on it. right?


So that leaves a question for closing too,

The prosecution can _____________________.

1) include the knife, bra clasp and Curatolo, in their theory with Nara's 11:30 ToD support. (basically, unchanged from the Massei's trial.)

2) change the theory to something much different.
Heavily focusing on Amandas letters from the interrogation, sink/toilet traces, luminol, the bathmat print and Filomenas room, etc..etc...

 

[AmyStrange]

I stand corrected...

No, you're right. It's nothing more exclusive than this level of differentiation. I suspect that Sollecito's haplotype might either have been R1b (as you note) or I2. And both of these groups constitute many millions of individuals alive today.

-

Thank you Ammonitida and LJ and sorry for the confusion,

Dave

 

[RandyN]

Is it contamination if the prosecution and police deliberately planted it? So some officer between Nov 5th and Dec 18 took dna from RS apartment and then went to the cottage and rubbed it onto the metal part of the bra clasp. Perhaps they did it the same day they collected the knife but they tossed the knife in with a pair of dirty booties from the cottage.

There case solved.

Strange that just one item for each defendant is discovered. And that one item for each defendant is a highly questionable trace...low copy number...multiple multipe dna traces...maybe they should just toss out these 2 highly questionable items and go with the 10 thousand other pages of evidence against the accused. Heck give everyone a Mulligan...Stefanoni can take back one lie...Id suggest the no blood test lie. Comodi gets to take back a lie...turnip juice lie. Mignini ....no satanic issue involved...Rita...I never slapped anyone...Monica...Toto is good...Toto....Monica is hot... everyone gets a Mulligan...now everyone gets to go home and Italy can deal with its own justice system...maybe in thousands years they can......

 

[Kaosium]

Yes, I believe it is definite evidence of contamination. You have to use common sense. What are the chances that 5-8.3 people handled Meredith's bra clasp and left a partial profile on it versus just look at the video and the before and after shots of that room.

This hired liar by the prosecution just threw his reputation in the trash can.
You don't have to be an expert with an impressive CV to see all the examples of bad evidence collection and possible contamination. Stefanoni's voodoo hoodoo with the knife blade and the keystone cops attempt at an academy award in the bra clasp collection video are telling. These people look like untrained, unorganized, unprofessional goons in bunny outfits trying to act like they have a clue that they actually know what they are doing. Pathetic.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's like they're lost in a world of fantasy, that no one can see with their own eyes and use their own brains. In my opinion the Italian media, cowed by potential defamation charges automatically goes overboard to believe whatever the police and their 'authorities' say, and rationalize any absurdity like they were bunnies and kittens trying to find lies and guilt anywhere but where it is emanating the strongest.

Thus they eventually think they can get away with anything--there's no 'check' on them whatsover in that direction. So if they want to pretend a bounce off the wrong tower and a ten minute gap is 'evidence' of a conspiracy involving seventeen people to cover up a crime when the killer is begging them to listen to them, they can do it, because the media won't criticize the prosecution so everyone judges the poor girl not playing 'La Bella Figura' to their satisfaction.

"Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule." --Friedrich Nietzsche

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

With all due respect, is not the crux of your technical "take home" argument that contamination is always possible even when existing facilities and protocols were shown to meet independent quality audit requirements?

Contamination is a real problem in crime labs all over the world, regardless of their certification. It really happens. It's not just a theory concocted by defense lawyers to get their clients off the hook.

http://www.nacdl.org/public.nsf/0/6285f6867724e1e685257124006f9177

Then, is not the logical common sense extension of this argument the tacit statement that all dna evidence is worthless

Of course not. But in this case, any given test result could be the result of contamination. Investigators collected over 100 DNA samples. Given the shoddy procedures shown in the video, it's almost inevitable that some of those samples became contaminated. Therefore, a single DNA match, especially with someone who was known to have been on the premises before and after the crime, is unreliable as evidence.

Let's look at the big picture of the DNA results from the room where Meredith was killed:

Guede's DNA:
- inside Meredith's body
- on her bra
- on the sleeve of her jacket
- on her purse

And to that we add his bloody hand print and shoe prints.

Raffaele's DNA:
- on the bra clasp, along with the DNA of other, unknown persons

Amanda's DNA
- none

One could throw out any one, two or three pieces of physical evidence against Guede and still have an airtight case. But if the bra fastener is removed from the equation, the case against Amanda and Raffaele goes away. There's no proof they ever set foot in that room.

 

[RoseMontague]

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's like they're lost in a world of fantasy, that no one can see with their own eyes and use their own brains. In my opinion the Italian media, cowed by potential defamation charges automatically goes overboard to believe whatever the police and their 'authorities' say, and rationalize any absurdity like they were bunnies and kittens trying to find lies and guilt anywhere but where it is emanating the strongest.

Thus they eventually think they can get away with anything--there's no 'check' on them whatsover in that direction. So if they want to pretend a bounce off the wrong tower and a ten minute gap is 'evidence' of a conspiracy involving seventeen people to cover up a crime when the killer is begging them to listen to them, they can do it, because the media won't criticize the prosecution so everyone judges the poor girl not playing 'La Bella Figura' to their satisfaction.

"Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule." --Friedrich Nietzsche

Sarah at IIP posted a pic of the freezer in the apartment. I am not sure I would feel comfortable storing my ice tray in there, but whatever. They must have dumped out the rest of that stuff, probably threw it out of Filomena's window.

 

[JREF2010]

So if prosecutors get a second review, then the defense gets a second review, then the Judge will have to appoint a second set of neutral experts, then the prosecution will request a third set of experts, then the defense will request a third set of experts, then the Judge will need to call in a third set of neutral experts ...<continue indefinitely>....

http://abcnews.go.com/International...rs-seek-review-dna-evidence/story?id=14452642

 

[charlatan]

Information is trickling out about Tagliabracci's testimony:

Tagliabracci's testimony came under withering cross examination from prosecutor Manuela Commodi as the chief police forensic investigator Patrizia Stefanoni sat at the table next to her. The sparring got nasty when Commodi said that Tagliabracci had insinuated that the police results were to support the prosecutors' theory.

"Don't make insinuations that you will be sorry about later," Commodi warned, prompting objections from defense lawyers and rumblings in the courtroom. Presiding Judge Claudio Pratillo Hellmann was forced to intervene and Commodi turned to Stefanoni a few times to tell her to "be quiet" as Stefanoni was heard loudly objecting to what Tagliabracci was saying.

Commodi's remark says a lot.

 

[RoseMontague]

Did Comodi just threaten a witness?

"Don?t make insinuations that you will be sorry about later," Commodi warned, prompting objections from defense lawyers and rumblings in the courtroom. Presiding Judge Claudio Pratillo Hellmann was forced to intervene and Commodi turned to Stefanoni a few times to tell her to "be quiet" as Stefanoni was heard loudly objecting to what Tagliabracci was saying.

http://abcnews.go.com/International...-review-dna-evidence/story?id=14452642&page=2

 

[katy_did]

I don't think it is very likely that the judge is going to ask for an expert review of his experts' review. It is just posturing on the part of <Dr Stefi and Maresca. I can't understand what difference it makes where the rye in that starch was grown. Just my opinion.

Well, I for one can't wait to find out the results of the independent review of the independent review. Then of course there'll be the independent review of the independent review of the independent review to look forward to, and if we're lucky Judge Hellmann might even agree to an independent review of the independent review of the independent review of the independent review! Unfortunately I suspect the independent review of his decision to grant an independent review may grind on a little.

(I'm starting to think an end of September verdict could be a little optimistic, though).

 

[theRealBob]

This case hasn't generated interest because it looks like a road accident, it's generated interest because it looks like modern day witch hunt being cheered on by an on-line lynch mob dishonestly demonizing the accused while ignoring major flaws with the prosecutions case.

?

Hear, hear, well said.

A surreal case conjured from the realm of impossibilities by a disgusting prosecution team, then cheered on an ongoing daily basis by a team of psychos agreeing with wackos...
One of the weirdest cases in history due to the inability of the odious offense to generate any believable illusion from the slime they labelled evidence no matter how hard they try, try and well, just cheat again.....

Sorry Stephanie Kercher, don't side with those people. They stink.
Perverting the cause of justice is seen as a very serious crime.They should lock up the cops and lawyers

and let Aviello find the key...

 

[Kaosium]

I don't know about introducing new evidence but here is an article where new testing on evidence is asked and contains criticism of the independent experts' report:

http://www.libero-news.it/articolo.jsp?id=816139

Thank you Christiana, here's what the google gave me:

Perugia, September 6 - (Adnkronos) - The news' and that 'today's hearing went materializing in the appeal trial of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito to the murder of Meredith Kercher, and' that the prosecution may require an additional genetic expertise , or a new skill to be made, possibly with new experts. The eventuality 'has been described by that proxy adviser Professor Giuseppe Novelli, as well as plaintiff lawyer Francesco Maresca.

''We would need a new appraisal done by an expert who has knowledge and experience of the full biostatistical analysis laboratory in an accurate and complete, but because 'the skill and' lack of statistics,''said Professor Novelli exit from the hearing. ''If you want to be sure of goodness' of the work for us and 'already' acts - Maresca said - you should at least complete the report left incomplete and superficial, with an additional appraisal or a new skill.''

The will 'of, and especially the decision of the Assize Court of Appeal in Perugia will come' till tomorrow, at the end of deposition of the consultants for the defense of Amanda Knox. Any request and the decision of the judges could change the timeframe that was given up to now almost taken for granted. (continued)

Unfortunately I cannot for the life of me figure out where it's supposed to be continued to. Perhaps someone who can read Italian can find out how to navigate that page.

I see Maresca and Novelli want new experts. For those ridiculous garbage DNA items that aren't really evidence of murder anyway. I like the way the phrasing gets translated as 'the prosecution may require an additional genetic expertise...' Frankly what the prosecution needs in my view is a chainsaw enema.

So I wonder what they're up to? Trying to find grounds for an appeal to the Supreme Court because the judge denied their request for another expert to be appointed because they didn't like the last ones?

 

[Grinder]

It certainly looks like the prosecution thinks the DNA on the knife and clasp are very, very important and those that believe that "the lies" will convict them may be a minority in Perugia.

 

[Dan O.]

In order to obtain the most reliable and objective results, any lab should merely be supplied with the piece of evidence to be tested, and told to identify the DNA loci present on the sample. If positive matches to a known suspect are to be attempted, then the most objective method would be to provide the suspect's reference profile alongside the reference profiles of several control individuals (i.e. the DNA-matching equivalent of a visual identification parade, where the suspect is lined up alongside several control individuals).

Once the set of loci (or possible loci) have been identified, it is simple math to say to what degree a given suspect is represented in a sample. Turning the problem into a subjective guessing game to come up with a near certain yes/no match to be paraded into court can only lead to an increase in erroneous conclusions.