Why so many Americans are in Prison.

[L.Y.S.]

Seriously, I think it's a cultural thing. From what I hear, the consequences of stepping out of line, even in little ways, are much greater in Japan. One mistake as a teenager can ruin your life.

Then why Germany, and Sweden, and Denmark? Surely they cannot have as much retribution against their youth.

 

[L.Y.S.]

For instance are the inmates in for a drug crime also the (at least sometimes) the same people who would go on to commit violent crimes, or perhaps commit violent crimes apart from their drug activity?

I've seen no evidence based in reality that suggested that drug crimes were related to violent crimes other than the issue of the crack epidemic in the late 80's and early 90's.

 

[Skepticemea]

They don't have 3 strikes policy in the U.K.?

Nope, because it seems odd to have a klepto convicted of shoplifting being housed at Her Maj's expense (to the tune of £40,000 (that's about $2bn) per year) for life (a term that means anything from 8 years up in the UK).

The UK prison system doesn't make money as the US system apparently does (no prison industries, y'see).

 

[L.Y.S.]

The UK prison system doesn't make money as the US system apparently does (no prison industries, y'see).

Well that blows for America. We make industries out of any and everything. Sometimes good and sometimes bad. I personally think the 3 strikes rule should be banned myself. Most people who commit violent crimes will have themselves locked up for life anyway. Especially how many times some people go in and out of prison. Can someone say prison reform?

 

[fitzgibbon]

Of course this isn't true, drugs are illegal for far more complex reasons.

And we know that making something illegal always solves the problem. I mean, witness the resounding success of Prohibition and the War on Drugs©. And of course, there haven't been any ancillary problems created like.....oh, say creating a wonderful money-making opportunity for organised crime?

I doubt direct financial interest was amongst the original reasons, but it's likely a contributing factor to direct efforts to prevent legalisation.

Make the drugs legal and tax 'em. More money in from taxes, less money out on the 3 Ps (police, prosecution and prison). Say, come to think of it, you don't suppose the police have a vested interest in keeping drugs illegal, do you?

Nah!

 

[fitzgibbon]

Here’s wrinkle to throw into the topic.
Does the drop in violent crime in the US have anything to with the increase in the prison population?

Aging population.

 

[daenku32]

Income & wealth disparities in this country are already on the levels of 3rd world countries. The difference is that we can "afford" to jail people for a long time.

 

[Corsair 115]

If so, this proves that cities don't necessarily = crime as many Americans including myself believe.

You don't have to look far for evidence of that. The city I live in, Toronto, Ontario, had a population of 2.5 million as of the 2006 census, so the population currently would be certainly be higher than that, yet the total number of homicides in the city in 2010 was only 60. The record for the city was 89 which occurred back in 1991.

 

[cwalner]

Nope, because it seems odd to have a klepto convicted of shoplifting being housed at Her Maj's expense (to the tune of £40,000 (that's about $2bn) per year) for life (a term that means anything from 8 years up in the UK).

The UK prison system doesn't make money as the US system apparently does (no prison industries, y'see).

While I get your point, I want to add a clarification. Almost universally, any state that has a 3 strikes law refers to felonies* (some even specify certain felonies) so your shoplifter example would likely not be affected by a 3 strikes laws. However, if said klepto preferred to steal cars instead of lifting from the corner store, then he/she would face 3 strikes laws.

*Not 100% sure about UK law, but in the US crimes are classified as felonies and misdemeanors, with felonies typically being the more serious offenses. In the case of larceny, the value of the property stolen determines whether it is a misdemeanor or a felony (and can vary from state to state)

 

[nvidiot]

And we know that making something illegal always solves the problem. I mean, witness the resounding success of Prohibition and the War on Drugs©. And of course, there haven't been any ancillary problems created like.....oh, say creating a wonderful money-making opportunity for organised crime?

I didn't say anything about whether the illegality of drugs is a good thing, because plainly and obviously it is not. I merely pointed out the direct financial interest in making drugs illegal in the first place, all those years ago, was probably not the reason.

Keeping drugs illegal is different, and I can indeed see direct financial interest in keeping them that way, which likely supports part of the prohibitionist activities trying to prevent legalisation and regulation.

It's easy to see a direct conspiracy here, but I think it is more complex than that.

Make the drugs legal and tax 'em.

Yup that's my policy prescription.

More money in from taxes, less money out on the 3 Ps (police, prosecution and prison). Say, come to think of it, you don't suppose the police have a vested interest in keeping drugs illegal, do you?

Of course they do. Do you have evidence that this is the reason drugs were made illegal in the first place? Or the reason they aren't legalised now?

 

[fitzgibbon]

More money in from taxes, less money out on the 3 Ps (police, prosecution and prison). Say, come to think of it, you don't suppose the police have a vested interest in keeping drugs illegal, do you?

Of course they do. Do you have evidence that this is the reason drugs were made illegal in the first place? Or the reason they aren't legalised now?

None whatever; I'm just shooting from the hip here. But I think we can safely say it was the same misguided 'thinking' that brought about Prohibition: 'We don't think you should do that. Ergo, we will make it illegal thereby creating an even bigger monster than the one we sought to defang'.

As for maintaining the status quo it's because 'law-and-order' politicians rattle the sabre of legalisation being the slippery slope to a licentious and libertine Romanesque living that would be at odds with what the U.S. Pilgrims would want were they yet alive. That and Hollywood has to have heroes for their latest 1 1/2 and 2-star product.

 

[I Ratant]

Another problem....Prison/jail has become the de facto mental- health institution for the US.

.
And fails miserably at mental and social rehabilitation.

 

[I Ratant]

Here’s wrinkle to throw into the topic.
Does the drop in violent crime in the US have anything to with the increase in the prison population?
For instance are the inmates in for a drug crime also the (at least sometimes) the same people who would go on to commit violent crimes, or perhaps commit violent crimes apart from their drug activity?

.
I've seen Roe v Wade credited with the drop.
Fewer unwanted childdren to grow up to be criminals.
The drop coincides with the ruling.

 

[JihadJane]

You're half right. In a free society when you're in a open society like America the criminal element seems to get the wrong idea. You can say anything you want to but there are laws which need to be obeyed. You can make your living in an honest manner but selling dope and robbing banks will get you put in prison as will having sex with the underaged etc.

Americans believe in punishing their wrong doers and our punishment tends to be more severe than their european counterparts. We don't cut the hands off of thieves and we don't execute people for having the wrong religion. Other than that we're pretty severe.

Selling dope is no more "wrong" than selling alcohol or tobacco. It's certainly not equivalent to robbing a bank (or the bank robbing you) or underage sex. You presumably grouped them together for propagandistic effect.

'Prison–industrial complex'

 

[Minoosh]

Then why Germany, and Sweden, and Denmark? Surely they cannot have as much retribution against their youth.

By coincidence I looked up Wackenhut today which has a nicer streamlined name now and is owned by - a company in Denmark. If Wikipedia is to be believed. So the Danes don't need a prison industry; they just piggyback on that of the U.S.

Wackenhut lobbyists apparently helped draft laws providing stiffer penalties for illegal immigrants, which is convenient as it also runs prisons & has DHS contracts to transport. Back to the border (for another crossing attempt); or transport to a jail. Now, whatever you think of illegal immigration, it's clear that this model results in a perpetual motion machine with the company potentially benefiting from a wide range of policy measures.

Re: 3 strikes. Because 2nd or 3rd offenses for shoplifting (DUI, etc.) are often charged as felonies, you could be a serial shoplifter and go away for life. First one or two "free," then the felony count starts to rise. In this way I saw a mentally retarded young man sentenced to 10 years in prison for stealing a 10-inch black-and-white TV set.

In Arizona it is illegal to lock someone up for simple possession of marijuana, first or second offense. However you can lock people up for probation violation, with fewer safeguards; people end up in jail for violating probation without the usual process of bail etc.

 

[fitzgibbon]

.
And fails miserably at mental and social rehabilitation.

But succeeds admirably at penalising. Trouble is, which one is more useful to society in the long run: penalising or rehabilitation? Certainly you don't get the visceral satisfaction from rehabilitation but it sure costs society a lot less on so many levels over the long haul.

 

[I Ratant]

I know several repeat jailbirds who would probably prefer freedom, but seem to have little regard for the consequences of actions of the moment.
How does one teach self-control?

 

[Floyt]

Guns.

 

[JihadJane]

But succeeds admirably at penalising. Trouble is, which one is more useful to society in the long run: penalising or rehabilitation? Certainly you don't get the visceral satisfaction from rehabilitation but it sure costs society a lot less on so many levels over the long haul.

How does penalising cost less than rehabilitation?

 

[Bikewer]

As Ratant notes... For a while, there was a very strong rehabilitation program in effect in prisons all across the country. Education, skills training, etc.
For the most part, this is by the boards now. The factors cited are:
1. Cost
2. "Coddling" criminals.
As also noted, no politician wants to be seen as "soft on crime".

Unfortunately, as I maintain in other areas of social justice, you are going to have to pay one way or the other.
We arrest the same people over and over again. Our neighboring department just arrested a fellow burglarizing apartments. He had been out of jail for two weeks. He not only promptly went back into crime, he went back into the very same neighborhood he'd been burglarizing before.
At the university, we have suspects who are so familiar to us that a description of the crime will give us a list of suspects immediately. In for a couple of years (typical sentences for petty theft) and then out... No job, no training, no chance of getting anything other than the most menial minimum-wage job... Little wonder these folks go back into crime.
We are creating a permanent underclass of people with no skills save criminal skills, no prospects, and who in many cases have spent half their lives incarcerated.
We have, we understand, about a million people in jail/prison at any particular time. That's a constantly-rotating population, of course. Recidivism runs 40-60% depending on the type of crime.