Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Wildhorses]

Barbie answered my question. The expert is Novelli -- a contamination expert.

Now I have to look him up. Have we seen this guy before?

 

[CoulsdonUK]

That has been true from the beginning. Meredith's murder and Amanda and Raffaele's incarcerations are two separate issues.

Regarding the letter to the judge: people write letters to judges all the time; I've done it myself, but it was for a non-juried trial. Customarily, no one is allowed to write letters to the jury -- that defeats the purpose of the trial, in which the lawyers are given equal opportunities to present their cases.

Guided by their Italian lawyer, when John and Stephanie Kercher write to the general public or to the judge, they know they are writing to the jury. If they find that helpful to their case, then they are admitting that the tabloid crusade was harmful to the defendants' case in the first trial.

Mary

Not sure how many different ways I can state my opinion. However, if one accepts the principal that Raffaele and Amanda’s families have right to speak to media about their perspective of Meredith Kercher’s murder then the same should apply to the Kercher family.

The observation that only the Kercher family are trying to influence the appeal or the original trial, is frankly absurd all the families directly involved have to a varying degree spoken to the media. We may or may not agree with what they say but they have in my opinion equal rights to free speech; I am not aware of any neutral evidence that supports the view any of the families public statements influenced the jury in the first trial.

What is the difference between Amanda’s family appearing on the Oprah Winfrey talk show in the US and John Kercher writing in UK’s Sunday Times; what is the difference between Amanda’s family taking their Italian legal team’s advice and Meredith’s family doing the same? Now you may disagree with Maresca or John and Stephanie Kercher but this in my opinion is a separate issue.

It seems like you are saying it is okay for one family to speak to media give TV interviews etc., to take legal advice from their counsel but it’s not acceptable that another family does exactly the same.

 

[lionking]

Mary

Not sure how many different ways I can state my opinion. However, if one accepts the principal that Raffaele and Amanda’s families have right to speak to media about their perspective of Meredith Kercher’s murder then the same should apply to the Kercher family.

The observation that only the Kercher family are trying to influence the appeal or the original trial, is frankly absurd all the families directly involved have to a varying degree spoken to the media. We may or may not agree with what they say but they have in my opinion equal rights to free speech; I am not aware of any neutral evidence that supports the view any of the families public statements influenced the jury in the first trial.

What is the difference between Amanda’s family appearing on the Oprah
Winfrey talk show in the US and John Kercher writing in UK’s Sunday Times; what is the difference between Amanda’s family taking their Italian legal team’s advice and Meredith’s family doing the same? Now you may disagree with Maresca or John and Stephanie Kercher but this in my opinion is a separate issue.

It seems like you are saying it is okay for one family to speak to media give TV interviews etc., to take legal advice from their counsel but it’s not acceptable that another family does exactly the same.

Spot on. And it just illustrates how this thread has evolved that this needs to be said.

 

[Kaosium]

According to Barbie tweets:
-- Bongiorno isn't in court today.
-- Della Vedova cross examined Stefanoni and voices were loud.
-- They're done with Stef for now.

Seems Della Vedova's cross only lasted ten minutes.

Also according to Barbie "New expert on stand looks like dictionary entry for "scientist"."

Does anyone know which side summoned this scientist?

I can't write this late at night... I will say that various sound bites make it seem like Vechiotti (sp?) indulged in a little hyperbole. Perhaps that's what it takes to make a point in a Perugian court. Lord knows the prosecution chews the scenery.

I am thoroughly disgusted with Stefanoni as a "scientist." She is clearly not objective. No one with a scientific mindset would deny that haphazard collection procedures increase the likelihood of contamination. At the same time, I hope C&V were more focused on speaking the truth than on attacking Stefanoni. Perhaps, they were. I suppose these crazy forums have a way of turning everything into "us" versus "them," as opposed to fact versus distortion. What I'm saying is that IMO it's crucial C&V presented themselves as INDEPENDENT experts, not hired guns.

This is all apropo of wondering if the new expert is a hired gun.

Latest from Barbie about the expert is: "...Novelli captivating the court with witty responses but gravity of testimony is lost on no one."

Whatever that means. Novelli is a prosecution expert, the 'meteor man' if I recall correctly. Hired gun, so witty, gravitas testimony would be bad for Amanda and Raffaele, if Nadeau's perceptions are accurate.

She also tweets that Amanda's not looking well in court, tired, maybe sick. A hot day she says, perhaps she needs water. Novelli must be off the stand, now Maresca's expert has slithered onto the stand.

 

[Wildhorses]

Latest from Barbie about the expert is: "...Novelli captivating the court with witty responses but gravity of testimony is lost on no one."

Whatever that means. Novelli is a prosecution expert, the 'meteor man' if I recall correctly. Hired gun, so witty, gravitas testimony would be bad for Amanda and Raffaele, if Nadeau's perceptions are accurate.

She also tweets that Amanda's not looking well in court, tired, maybe sick. A hot day she says, perhaps she needs water. Novelli must be off the stand, now Maresca's expert has slithered onto the stand.

So regarding the integrity of the DNA evidence, the court has seen or will see:
1. The independent experts (C&V)
2. Stefanoni (for prosecution)
3. Novelli (hired gun for prosecution)
4. Maresca's hired gun

Is that correct? Please tell me the defense is bringing in a hired gun as well.

Why are we always out-numbered?

 

[pilot padron]

So far another bad day in Blackrock for the defense

Why won't Pilot stop referring to Stefanoni as Dr?
This is an international forum, we are all writing in English. If this were an Italian forum, fine. But Ms Stefanoni doesn't have a PhD, and that's the international association with the title Dr.

There are no more 'questions for Doctor Stefanoni at this time and she is off the stand for now.

Interesting that no one except those usual agenda blinded zealot Groupies think the Doctor's testimony was anything less than devastating for the Defense and the *academic* experts' much ballyhooed here Report.

Doctor Stefanoni also obviously by no means came anywhere near that 'bus' that was so widely predicted and heralded here before yesterday.
A fine dish of crow is also waiting for those here who arrogantly predicted that the Doctor would not even dare to "show her face" during the Appeal.
Indeed, ever so objective arguing

Giuseppe Novelli, consultant for the Prosecutor’s Office; is on the stand continuing the destruction of the C&V Report.

Sure is strange that those 'Will be free at any hour' cheers here seem rather muted since the 'other side of the story' has been presented

Also strange that the highly touted Defense star, Bongiorno is not even in Court today

 

[ForTruth]

Sure is strange that those 'Will be free at any hour' cheers here seem rather muted since the 'other side of the story' has been presented

Also strange that the highly touted Defense star, Bongiorno is not even in Court today

What am I missing here? Yesterday didn't seem to go poorly for the defense and so far we really only know the line-up of who gave testimony today, not really any details or how the judges/jury are perceived to have responded.
Are you just trying to create an unsubstantiated morale blow to those who support Knox and Sollecito, or has there been a real resonating blow to C&V the report presented today or yesterday?

 

[AmyStrange]

-

The video of the "forensic experts" gathering the bra clasp is what needs to be attacked and discredited and so far neither Dr S or Dr N have not done that.

Too bad too, I was looking forward to a real knock down drag out fight by the prosecution, but so far... no kudos for anybody... pity.

 

[Kaosium]

Mary

Not sure how many different ways I can state my opinion. However, if one accepts the principal that Raffaele and Amanda’s families have right to speak to media about their perspective of Meredith Kercher’s murder then the same should apply to the Kercher family.

Coulsdon, the issue isn't that they're speaking to the media, but that they're attacking Amanda and Raffaele with false information. Their lawyer has also participated in attempts to punish and intimidate the Knox and Sollecito families.

The observation that only the Kercher family are trying to influence the appeal or the original trial, is frankly absurd all the families directly involved have to a varying degree spoken to the media. We may or may not agree with what they say but they have in my opinion equal rights to free speech; I am not aware of any neutral evidence that supports the view any of the families public statements influenced the jury in the first trial.

They are attempting to deny that free speech to Raffaele's and Amanda's families.

What is the difference between Amanda’s family appearing on the Oprah Winfrey talk show in the US and John Kercher writing in UK’s Sunday Times; what is the difference between Amanda’s family taking their Italian legal team’s advice and Meredith’s family doing the same? Now you may disagree with Maresca or John and Stephanie Kercher but this in my opinion is a separate issue.

The difference is money and time lost having to defend themselves in court against frankly preposterous charges, not to mention the harassment at what might be the worst time of their lives.

It seems like you are saying it is okay for one family to speak to media give TV interviews etc., to take legal advice from their counsel but it’s not acceptable that another family does exactly the same.

That's not the issue here, and nowhere on God's green earth is attacking someone with lies the same as defending someone.

Spot on. And it just illustrates how this thread has evolved that this needs to be said.

Do you believe some posts abide by the MA, and others need to be 'infracted?' The point here is that the Kerchers statements are in violation of the MA but seem to get away with it due to some bizarre impunity, but they are seeking to have the Knox and Sollecitos banned at every opportunity for posts that abide by the MA.

Not all speech is equal, Lionking, and Raffaele and Amanda are innocent until proven guilty all the way through the Supreme Court. They're also going to be acquitted which ought to give pause to these inexplicable outbursts at this point, that shame the memory of Meredith and make people wonder about what their purpose could be.

 

[Kaosium]

There are no more 'questions for Doctor Stefanoni at this time and she is off the stand for now.

Interesting that no one except those usual agenda blinded zealot Groupies think the Doctor's testimony was anything less than devastating for the Defense and the *academic* experts' much ballyhooed here Report.

Doctor Stefanoni also obviously by no means came anywhere near that 'bus' that was so widely predicted and heralded here before yesterday.
A fine dish of crow is also waiting for those here who arrogantly predicted that the Doctor would not even dare to "show her face" during the Appeal.
Indeed, ever so objective arguing

Giuseppe Novelli, consultant for the Prosecutor’s Office; is on the stand continuing the destruction of the C&V Report.

Sure is strange that those 'Will be free at any hour' cheers here seem rather muted since the 'other side of the story' has been presented

Also strange that the highly touted Defense star, Bongiorno is not even in Court today

LOL @ your bolding.

I forget if Bri has revealed her position on this forum so I will demur from telling you why it's so funny.

This ought to tell you something, but since neither your nor Barbie figured it out, I'll tell you instead: that means it's just a formality at this point, the DNA evidence rusts at the bottom of the Tiber where it was tossed a month ago and no force on earth can recover it now. DNA and water don't mix very well.

 

[pilot padron]

Guess you missed a lot

-

The video of the "forensic experts" gathering the bra clasp is what needs to be attacked and discredited and so far neither Dr S or Dr N have not done that.

Too bad too, I was looking forward to a real knock down drag out fight by the prosecution, but so far... no kudos for anybody... pity.

Then you must have missed the testimony of Forensic Consultant Giuseppe Novelli.

His testimony so far has been described as "witty and captivating".

Quick example from Novelli on the topic you broach:
"The contaminant must be demonstrated, where does it originate and where is it?
The bra clasp [is] contaminated by dust? It's more probable that a meteorite will fall and demolish this court," Giuseppe Novelli, professor of genetics and consultant for the prosecution, claimed."

Through most non biased eyes and ears, that is a pretty obvious knock out "kudo" for informed objective observers

 

[AmyStrange]

What am I missing here? Yesterday didn't seem to go poorly for the defense and so far we really only know the line-up of who gave testimony today, not really any details or how the judges/jury are perceived to have responded.
Are you just trying to create an unsubstantiated morale blow to those who support Knox and Sollecito, or has there been a real resonating blow to C&V the report presented today or yesterday?

-

For truth,

like you said "unsubstantiated morale blow", in other words "it's all talk" just like yesterday. They can blah blah blah all they want, but that video C&V used in court is what needs to be attacked and discredited, but so far, nada.

They also need to explain how, if proper techniques for evidence gathering and storage were truly used, then the bra clasp rusting needs to be explained, but no one is doing that either.

In my opinion, until they can do both those things above, yesterday and today (so far) hasn't diminished the C&V report at all,

Dave

 

[Wildhorses]

From La Gazzetta del MezzoGiorno

POSSIBLE NEW TEST TRACKS KNIFE (Google translate version)

PERUGIA - The genetic traces found on the knife seen the weapon used to kill Meredith Kercher "could and should" be analyzed by experts of the Assize Court of Appeal of Perugia. Said Professor Giuseppe Novelli, a professor of human genetics at the University of Rome Tor Vergata and advisor to the PM.

Today was deposed in court challenging the conclusions of the experts of Perugia judges have described as "unreliable" the results of forensic examinations.Arriving at their conclusions based on the record, after having excluded to repeat the analysis.

Referring to the charges on the knife, Novelli spoke of "analyzable traces." "Today - he added - we have methods and analysis protocols that allow us to even lower amounts, as is the case for the diagnosis of human diseases."

The teacher then excluded the contamination of the knife and the hook when worn by Kercher was killed. "The contamination - said - must be proved, the origin and who carried it." Novelli explained that in the days when they were examined the findings in the scientific laboratories were examined hundreds of genetic profiles for other cases. The teacher said he had examined them "one by one" but "no" had characteristics compatible with those of Kercher or Sollecito.

PREVENT CONTAMINATION FINDINGS scientific biology - has ruled out the "contamination as an objective fact," the biologist of the Scientific Police Patrizia Stefanoni during his testimony before the Assize Court of Appeals of Perugia that is processing Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox's murder Meredith Kercher. According to the expert "is proven" that the hook of the bra worn by the victim when he was murdered British student of the DNA is mixed with that of Sollecito.

Stefanoni has finished answering the questions of the Attorney General. It will now be heard by the defenders of the accused.

The biologist said that the murder in the house have been finding traces 133, 89 in the scene of the crime. "In no - he explained - has been isolated profile urge individually." Forensic genetics has also highlighted that the genetic code of the two defendants was only found on a cigarette butt. "If it had transmigrated - continued - in the room of the victim on the hook of the bra would have found even the DNA of Knox."

With regard to the hypothesis advanced by the experts of the Court that the findings may have been contaminated by dust in the house, Stefanoni said that "lands everywhere." Analyzed on all tracks - even the biologist explained - were only found the genetic profiles of the two accused and the victim lived in the house while two other girls.

Stefanoni then claimed the correctness of the analysis performed in the laboratories of the Scientific Police. The hook of the bra was examined - even explained in the classroom - twelve days after the last track of analysis Sollecito, the knife, while considered to be the murder weapon has been working six days after the last trace of the victim.

"Nothing - Stefanoni reiterated - was brought in from outside Meredith's room."

 

[AmyStrange]

Then you must have missed the testimony of Forensic Consultant Giuseppe Novelli.

His testimony so far has been described as "witty and captivating".

Quick example from Novelli on the topic you broach:
"The contaminant must be demonstrated, where does it originate and where is it?
The bra clasp [is] contaminated by dust? It's more probable that a meteorite will fall and demolish this court," Giuseppe Novelli, professor of genetics and consultant for the prosecution, claimed."

Through most non biased eyes and ears, that is a pretty obvious knock out "kudo" for informed objective observers

maybe you are right and my bias is preventing me from seeing it like you say, but videos are more powerful than words (it's why the term "CSI effect" exist and is considered a real factor in many jury decisions) and since the video demonstrates the "where" and "how" of contamination; analogies about meteors really don't do anything to disprove the C&V video presentation, but that is just my biased opinion as is yours,

Dave

 

[Matthew Best]

"The contaminant must be demonstrated, where does it originate and where is it?

I don't believe this is correct. It seems to be placing the burden of proof on the defence to prove innocence, rather than on the prosecution to prove guilt. All the defence have to do is demonstrate reasonable doubt - and reasonable doubt about the DNA evidence is there in abundance. The defence don't have to demonstrate exactly how, when and where contamination took place, just that it was, to coin a phrase, "possible, and indeed probable".

 

[PhantomWolf]

I think one factor that the Prosecution, and pilot, seem to have forgotten, is that Carla Vecchiotti and Stefano Conti are not Defence Witnesses. They were personally appointed by the Judge, Hellmann.

Let me put it this way. You appoint two people you trust to evaluate a third person's work. They came back and tell you that the work was poor and deficent and explain why. Would it really matter to you how much that person and their mates objected to that report, or would you consider that they were trying to cover their butts by attempting to discredit the people you hand selected for the job?

In the end who would you trust more, the people you hand-selected to do the review, or the ones that tried to discredit your experts after having it shown that the work was substandard?

 

[Kaosium]

Then you must have missed the testimony of Forensic Consultant Giuseppe Novelli.

His testimony so far has been described as "witty and captivating".

Quick example from Novelli on the topic you broach:
"The contaminant must be demonstrated, where does it originate and where is it?
The bra clasp [is] contaminated by dust? It's more probable that a meteorite will fall and demolish this court," Giuseppe Novelli, professor of genetics and consultant for the prosecution, claimed."

Through most non biased eyes and ears, that is a pretty obvious knock out "kudo" for informed objective observers

Splish, splish, splash

Knife takes a bath.

Glub glub glub,

bra-clasp in a tub.

Yo ho ho

Into the Tiber we go!

Pilot, what you don't realize is I and most other 'groupies' here are far more objective observers and analysts than anyone you consider so. That's why we sit here where anyone can challenge our posts, where as you are disinformed every day by an environment that amounts to a shared delusion at this point, by ensuring that no one who disagrees with the basic precepts lasts long. Some only get one post! Don't you realize what that means?

Here's an excellent new entry on the DNA 'evidence' including commentary on Novelli's basically irrelevant remarks. You can call him Dr. too, but for some reason you never do! Isn't that strange!

I've not had a chance to comment on it yet, because unlike making smart-ass remarks, I have to strain my little brain and my 'B' in college biology (but on a curve!) discussing that topic. However I'll just say this: Novelli's remarks are inaccurate, misleading, and irrelevant as that's hardly the only way they could get contaminated, and since there's at least four profiles there, you already know that it did.

 

[Wildhorses]

Rats

I didn't know we were going to do a round of hired guns. I thought we'd covered that angle last time. Thought Hellman had limited it to independent experts and Stefanoni's rebuttal.

Aaaargh. IMO, the summoning of the hired guns is terrible news. It's stupid. There will ALWAYS be an expert somewhere to argue anything anyone wants argued.

I keep looking for evidence that the end is in sight. I don't see it. I see a lynch mob that's willing to do anything or say anything to keep Knox and Sollecito in prison.

It's cultural. For three years, I've thought this case is the updated version of Daisy Miller. I still think that. Daisy dies in the end. Why? Because she was a spunky flirt who failed to understand, as did her parents, the unwritten rules of the Old World.

 

[AmyStrange]

POSSIBLE NEW TEST TRACKS KNIFE (Google translate version)

PERUGIA - The genetic traces found on the knife seen the weapon used to kill Meredith Kercher "could and should" be analyzed by experts of the Assize Court of Appeal of Perugia. Said Professor Giuseppe Novelli, a professor of human genetics at the University of Rome Tor Vergata and advisor to the PM.

Today was deposed in court challenging the conclusions of the experts of Perugia judges have described as "unreliable" the results of forensic examinations.Arriving at their conclusions based on the record, after having excluded to repeat the analysis.

Referring to the charges on the knife, Novelli spoke of "analyzable traces." "Today - he added - we have methods and analysis protocols that allow us to even lower amounts, as is the case for the diagnosis of human diseases."

The teacher then excluded the contamination of the knife and the hook when worn by Kercher was killed. "The contamination - said - must be proved, the origin and who carried it." Novelli explained that in the days when they were examined the findings in the scientific laboratories were examined hundreds of genetic profiles for other cases. The teacher said he had examined them "one by one" but "no" had characteristics compatible with those of Kercher or Sollecito.

PREVENT CONTAMINATION FINDINGS scientific biology - has ruled out the "contamination as an objective fact," the biologist of the Scientific Police Patrizia Stefanoni during his testimony before the Assize Court of Appeals of Perugia that is processing Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox's murder Meredith Kercher. According to the expert "is proven" that the hook of the bra worn by the victim when he was murdered British student of the DNA is mixed with that of Sollecito.

Stefanoni has finished answering the questions of the Attorney General. It will now be heard by the defenders of the accused.

The biologist said that the murder in the house have been finding traces 133, 89 in the scene of the crime. "In no - he explained - has been isolated profile urge individually." Forensic genetics has also highlighted that the genetic code of the two defendants was only found on a cigarette butt. "If it had transmigrated - continued - in the room of the victim on the hook of the bra would have found even the DNA of Knox."

With regard to the hypothesis advanced by the experts of the Court that the findings may have been contaminated by dust in the house, Stefanoni said that "lands everywhere." Analyzed on all tracks - even the biologist explained - were only found the genetic profiles of the two accused and the victim lived in the house while two other girls.

Stefanoni then claimed the correctness of the analysis performed in the laboratories of the Scientific Police. The hook of the bra was examined - even explained in the classroom - twelve days after the last track of analysis Sollecito, the knife, while considered to be the murder weapon has been working six days after the last trace of the victim.

"Nothing - Stefanoni reiterated - was brought in from outside Meredith's room."

Sigh. I guess it's time to show the "gift wrapped" mop video.

 

[Diocletus]

Mary

Not sure how many different ways I can state my opinion. However, if one accepts the principal that Raffaele and Amanda’s families have right to speak to media about their perspective of Meredith Kercher’s murder then the same should apply to the Kercher family.

The observation that only the Kercher family are trying to influence the appeal or the original trial, is frankly absurd all the families directly involved have to a varying degree spoken to the media. We may or may not agree with what they say but they have in my opinion equal rights to free speech; I am not aware of any neutral evidence that supports the view any of the families public statements influenc.

What is the difference between Amanda’s family appearing on the Oprah Winfrey talk show in the US and John Kercher writing in UK’s Sunday Times; what is the difference between Amanda’s family taking their Italian legal team’s advice and Meredith’s family doing the same? Now you may disagree with Maresca or John and Stephanie Kercher but this in my opinion is a separate issue.

It seems like you are saying it is okay for one family to speak to media give TV interviews etc., to take legal advice from their counsel but it’s not acceptable that another family does exactly the same.

Hate to break the news, but there is one itty bitty difference: The Knox/Sollecito side is right; the Kerchers are wrong.

Consequently, their moral positions couldn't be more opposed. The Knox/Sollecitos are campaigning to free innocent people. The Kerchers are campaigning to keep innocent people wrongly imprisoned.