Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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Jack by the hedge said:
I'm still waiting to hear how you measure the curvature of spacetime by analysing a laser reflected off the moon.

Was it travelling through curved space that made Borman space sick, and would tidal forces affect where all the poop ended up?
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Loose stools?
 
Erock said:
This Borman thing just runs and runs.

Wasn't there a 60s band called 'Lou Stools and the Trolls'?
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They were an Illuminati/NWO disinfo band. Take a line through 'The Purloined Letter.'
 
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Patrick1000 said:
Of course, any object traveling through the Earth's local space-time, whether being driven by a rocket engine, or in free fall, will experience not only the moon's, but the sun's gravitational effects/space-time bending as well. Trajectories of photons in the form of ultra coherent monochromatic laser light, passing from the earth to the moon and back, could be studied providing useful information to both civilian and military personal with respect to how things pass, how they "curve" through the space-time around us.
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An inertial navigation system (INS) is a navigation aid that uses a computer, motion sensors (accelerometers) and rotation sensors (gyroscopes) to continuously calculate via dead reckoning the position, orientation, and velocity (direction and speed of movement) of a moving object without the need for external references
 
tsig said:
An inertial navigation system (INS) is a navigation aid that uses a computer, motion sensors (accelerometers) and rotation sensors (gyroscopes) to continuously calculate via dead reckoning the position, orientation, and velocity (direction and speed of movement) of a moving object without the need for external references
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Something else for the young shaver to ignore.
 
Well, it doesn't really run and run. We need not pursue this any longer.

dafydd said:
They were an Illuminati/NWO disinfo band. Take a line through 'The Purloined Letter.'
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I am sure most reasonable people after reading this will feel the issue is all but settled. Here is James Borman from the Life Magazine article, "A Science Fiction World-Awesome, Forlorn Beauty", January 17 1969;

"I did something on the flight that I had stated pretty firmly I would never do: I took a sleeping pill. We had a little difficulty keeping out of the way of the spent third stage of our rocket on the way out, and that made me two hours late getting down for my sleep period. I knew we all had to be rested when we got to the moon, so I took a pill. It worked, but I woke up about five hours later with a headache and nausea. I actually threw up a couple of times, and I thought I should tell the ground. Now, one of the difficulties of communication with the ground is that everything we say is broadcast so that anyone can hear, and sometimes little hints of illnesses are overplayed. So I informed the ground about my problem only reluctantly. It turned out not to be serious, and I still don't know what it was, but I personally think it was a reaction to that pill. On the way home I took half of another pill, just to test it, and again I had a slight headache and faint nausea. "

Diarrhea said to be floating everywhere in the zero-G command module, profuse diarrhea of unknown cause, infection risk for his colleagues high as the moon, no evidence for appropriate follow up with Borman or the other astronauts with regard to the medical risks, no evidence for an appropriate clean up having been attempted let alone carried out, AND WHAT DOES BORMAN DO?!!! WHY QUITE LOGICALLY, HE TAKES ANOTHER SECANOL, ALBEIT 1/2 A PILL.

Of all the Apollo nonsense I have ever been exposed to, this takes the moon cake. This man is without question not an astronaut. This man without question is not under a doctor's supervision. This man without question was 240,000 miles from the moon when he and cohorts pulled that ridiculous Genesis reading stunt.

It's enough to make me nauseated. God help us. Science fiction? You betcha'!!!
 
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And Dr. Socks swings........ and misses! Steeeerike 254!

Ya gotta keep your eye on the ball, son, the fast ones are getting right by ya.
 
Patrick1000 said:
I am sure most reasonable people after reading this will feel the issue is all but settled. Here is James Borman from the Life Magazine article, "A Science Fiction World-Awesome, Forlorn Beauty", January 17 1969;

"I did something on the flight that I had stated pretty firmly I would never do: I took a sleeping pill. We had a little difficulty keeping out of the way of the spent third stage of our rocket on the way out, and that made me two hours late getting down for my sleep period. I knew we all had to be rested when we got to the moon, so I took a pill. It worked, but I woke up about five hours later with a headache and nausea. I actually threw up a couple of times, and I thought I should tell the ground. Now, one of the difficulties of communication with the ground is that everything we say is broadcast so that anyone can hear, and sometimes little hints of illnesses are overplayed. So I informed the ground about my problem only reluctantly. It turned out not to be serious, and I still don't know what it was, but I personally think it was a reaction to that pill. On the way home I took half of another pill, just to test it, and again I had a slight headache and faint nausea. "

Diarrhea said to be floating everywhere in the zero-G command module, profuse diarrhea of unknown cause, infection risk for his colleagues high as the moon, no evidence for appropriate follow up with Borman or the other astronauts with regard to the medical risks, no evidence for an appropriate clean up having been attempted let alone carried out, AND WHAT DOES BORMAN DO?!!! WHY QUITE LOGICALLY, HE TAKES ANOTHER SECANOL, ALBEIT 1/2 A PILL.

Of all the Apollo nonsense I have ever been exposed to, this takes the moon cake. This man is without question not an astronaut. This man without question is not under a doctor's supervision. This man without question was 240,000 miles from the moon when he and cohorts pulled that ridiculous Genesis reading stunt.

It's enough to make me nauseated. God help us. Science fiction? You betcha'!!!
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So Borman is telling the truth about taking half a Seconal, but lying about experiencing only headache and nausea?

You really are a selective reader, Patrick.
 
Perhaps Our Most Significant Point Yet

The February 19 Session of the 1957 Astronautics symposium featured many distinguished speakers, not the least of whom was UCLA's and System's Laboratories' Professor Samuel Harrick. A general review of that day's Astronautics symposium may be found at; AstronauticsNow.com. The summary includes this with respect to Professor Harrick's presentation;

"In the next presentation, Professor Samuel Herrick, of UCLA and Systems Laboratories, spoke on "Accurate Navigation of Intercontinental and Satellite Vehicles in the Earth's Gravitational Field." He emphasized particularly the need for accurate values of a primary gravitational constant, k2, and of the coefficients J and K of the second and fourth harmonics in the earth's potential.

Herrick pointed out first that Gauss' value of k2, for heliocentric orbits with the astronomical unit as unit of distance, was accurate to nine significant figures, whereas neither the laboratory value of G nor a laboratory unit of distance such as the meter would permit an accuracy of more than three or four significant figures.

The corresponding value for geocentric orbits, ke2, is best determined from values of the earth's equatorial radius and acceleration of gravity, taking into account J, K, and the effects of the earth's rotation and atmosphere. The last three are determined from theory with sufficient accuracy. J is best determined at present from astronomical sources, but a value consistent with the international value of the earth's flattening, f = 1/297, is in sufficiently close agreement to be adopted. The Army Map Service has recently determined a highly accurate value of the earth's equatorial radius. With these values and an independent study of sources of information on the acceleration of gravity, the speaker and his associates have recently determined an improved value of ke2. The difference between the improved value and that probably being used in ICBM trajectory calculations would amount to 3000 or 4000 feet at the end point. Herrick expressed the opinion that whereas studies of the Vanguard Satellite would almost certainly improve J, the outlook for ke was decidedly less hopeful. He also stated his belief that proposed methods in either special perturbations or general perturbations, though they might be sufficient for ephemeris calculations, would be inadequate to handle the highly accurate orbit calculations necessary for improving the geophysical constants and similar problems".

So we learn to achieve the requisite accuracies for satellites, including temporary intercontinental satellites/ICBMs, we must calculate/determine the Gaussian gravitational constant, k2, and coefficients J and K as well(the 2nd and 4th harmonics in the Earth's potential) with a precision never previously imagined, let alone realized.

AND SO, IN 1957 IT WAS RECOGNIZED THAT IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE THE DESIRED ACCURACY WITH ICBMS k2, j AND K would need to be determined ever so much more precisely, or the missiles would "miss", relatively speaking of course.

Planetary and Space Science Volume 16 issue 2 , February 1968 featured this article with abstract provided;

"A determination of the second and fourth order sectorial harmonics in the geopotential from the motion of 12-hr satellites

James P. Murphya and Eric L. Victora

a Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Maryland, U.S.A.
Revised 26 September 1967.
Available online 11 October 2002.

Abstract

Only the terms in the geopotential for which a commensurability exists between the rotational speed of the Earth and the mean motion of a satellite result in long-term perturbations in the semimajor axis of the satellite orbit. The perturbation equation for the semimajor axis due to a two to one commensurability is obtained by considering the tesseral and sectorial harmonics through the fifth degree. Slightly different sets of values for the second and fourth degree sectorial harmonics are then obtained, for slightly different gravitational models, by least squares from the observed long term perturbations in the semimajor axes of the orbits of the satellites 1964 49D (Cosmos 41) and 1965 30A (Molniya 1). "

Of course one would do infinitely better than these guys did with the calculations were one to use an instrumented/LRRR equipped moon, as opposed to just any ol' satellite for determining the 2nd and fouth harmonics in the Earth's potential .

So this is perhaps our greatest revelation to date with regard to direct motive for LRRR placement. To effectively target ICBMs the Gaussian Gravitational Constant and coefficients J and K for the 2nd and 4th harmonics of the Earth's potential would need to be determined with insane precision. And you guys thought they were just measuring the distance to the moon.

LRRR ranging and its associated gravitational studies would provide these numbers. Numbers to be used in military and civilian applications.

Obviously this is of tremendous significance and much much much more will follow on how LRRR ranging and its gravitational investigations made all of this k2,j and K measuring possible.
 
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An approach to J, derrived by me today, but shared by others. In many books.

In space, the very best measurement of J2 would be by way of determining the θ-component of the gravity force. Here r is the distance from a satellite

gθ=1/r X dV/dθ=3GM(earth)(a2J/r4)X(sinθcosθ)

In my own version for this derrivation, gθ is of course the component of force appling a torque to the orbital angular momentum. θ is the geocentric latitude. "a" for me there is the equatorial radius and it is squared. r4 there is r X r x r x r.

By far and away the best way to do this is with an instrumented moon, LRRR equipped moon. Nothing else would come even close.

Sorry, I do not have access to a keyboard that provides for good mathematical notation.

I'll have much more to say about this later. but for starters, it is clear what is going on. Is it not?
 
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Oh, come on!!

Patrick1000 said:
Saturation Point, Hardly!!!

Per Loss Leader's excellent recommendation, I went out and to the degree poosible, such as my schedule allows, began to research the other missions more intensively.

Witness my progress on the Borman Diarrhea Fiasco. My last post presents Borman's damning self incriminating evidence. ALL OF APOLLO IS PROVEN FRAUDULENT BASED ON BORMAN"S LUDICROUSLY PREPOSTEROUS STATEMENT.

Perhaps we need not go on, given this revelation. But I for one am interested in this masterful space ruse. Such as my commitments will allow, I will continue to "map the fraud".
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I'm new here. I have followed Fattydash/P1K's specious arguments and the generally well-reasoned and often amusing rebuttals to his nonsense across three forums. As someone that grew up during the heady days of the early manned space program (unlike our protagonist in these posts, I really was born in the '50's), I have found this to be a fun pursuit to help further my education regarding Apollo. Besides, during my annual volunteer week at Oshkosh, it made for good reading on my iPad in the evenings.

However, what finally motivated me to post something is what is quoted above. Y'see, my young poseur, I have one distinct advantage over you, even if you have all of the qualifications you claim: I've had the honor and privilege of meeting, having conversations with, and looking both Colonel Frank Borman and Captain James Lovell in the eye. If they're lying or dissembling in any way about either Apollo VIII, or, in Captain Lovell's case, Apollo XIII, they are the best actors I've ever met.

Since I am a newbie, I challenge you, right here and now, to answer, without referring to that silly post 1708, or whatever number it is, the following:

What time (preferably in UTC, so there is no ambiguity) did the Lick Observatory get the infamous coordinates?

Who, specifically, are the ringleaders that managed to pull off the greatest disinformation stunt of all time, duping the world's governments, press, scientists, 400,000 participants, ham radio operators, amateur astronomers ("scientists" included the professionals), etc, etc., ad infinitum? Note that even General Groves couldn't keep speculation about the Atomic Bomb out of the popular press (see Racing for The Bomb by Robert S. Norris).

Related to the above, was it fraud or a cover? If it was fraud, who benefitted? If it was a security cover to plant LRRR's for targeting, wouldn't it have been cheaper and easier to send advanced Surveyors and hide the program in plain sight?

How inaccurate were the distances between global landmasses in, oh, 1968?

Related to the above, what were the CEP's of the Titan, Minuteman, and Polaris missiles? (That last might be unfair, as that's probably still classified, but I have seen some amazing info in open source material, so there's a challenge for you.)

To all the regulars, I apologize for this wall of text.

To Patrick, please note that each question can be answered in one or two sentences, or with a short list. If you've actually got facts, not obfuscation, that's all you'll need.
 
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The Moon and Gaussian Gravitational Constant Determinations

The AU, is approximately the mean Earth-Sun distance, 92,955,807 miles. It was the International Astronomical Union's 1976 revision/redefinition of this parameter that give it today's, as of 1976, more precise form. With units comprised of length, mass and time, it is known as k, the Gaussian Gravitational Constant. So defined, it is the radius of perfect circular motion/Newtonian around the sun of a particle will infinitessimal mass. Its angular frequency is 0.017 202 098 95 radians per day.

Again, the AU is of course, roughly equal to the mean earth-sun distance.

Kepler was the first to get the number pretty right. He was intelligent, had good tools/telescope and of course his laws of planetary motion.

Truly modern measurements of this parameter began with the LRRR studies. Electromagnetic radiation, radar/telemetry/laser photons are bounced off objects such as was done in the LRRR case. Measured positions of celestial bodies like the moon are matched with the corresponding calculated positions as derrived by classical laws in most cases, though relativistic approaches have obviously been developed, and themselves are an area of intensive research. The calculated positions consitiute an "ephemeris". When the measured and calculated positions are matched up, the speed of light, believe it or not, can be so derrived. The speed of light of course is a constant itself. This then gives us the AU, as the speed of light is 173.144 632 6847 AU/d.

So the first "matching" and truly modern determination of the AU, in the sense of genuine accuracy, was by way of the LRRR, with those measured positions matched to the calculated classical law positions, thereby giving us the speed of light and a precise number for the AU, or k in its alternative representation, the Gaussian Gravitational Constant.

As we saw, above, a satisfactory number for k, in terms of its providing for the most accurate ICBM targeting did not exist until the LRRRs were placed and the moon was ranged.

So the military aspect of Apollo is certainly undeniable. And again, this is not a secret. Any country with marginally decent science and intelligence/investigate services, would know this; Russia, China, India, Brazil, Israel, Germany...., and on and on.
 
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SUSpilot said:
I'm new here. I have followed Fattydash/P1K's specious arguments and the generally well-reasoned and often amusing rebuttals to his nonsense across three forums. As someone that grew up during the heady days of the early manned space program (unlike our protagonist in these posts, I really was born in the '50's), I have found this to be a fun pursuit to help further my education regarding Apollo. Besides, during my annual volunteer week at Oshkosh, it made for good reading on my iPad in the evenings.

However, what finally motivated me to post something is what is quoted above. Y'see, my young poseur, I have one distinct advantage over you, even if you have all of the qualifications you claim: I've had the honor and privilege of meeting, having conversations with, and looking both Colonel Frank Borman and Captain James Lovell in the eye. If they're lying or dissembling in any way about either Apollo VIII, or, in Captain Lovell's case, Apollo XIII, they are the best actors I've ever met.

Since I am a newbie, I challenge you, right here and now, to answer, without referring to that silly post 1708, or whatever number it is, the following:

What time (preferably in UTC, so there is no ambiguity) did the Lick Observatory get the infamous coordinates?

Who, specifically, are the ringleaders that managed to pull off the greatest disinformation stunt of all time, duping the world's governments, press, scientists, 400,000 participants, ham radio operators, amateur astronomers ("scientists" included the professionals), etc, etc., ad infinitum? Note that even General Groves couldn't keep speculation about the Atomic Bomb out of the popular press (see Racing for The Bomb by Robert S. Norris).

Related to the above, was it fraud or a cover? If it was fraud, who benefitted? If it was a security cover to plant LRRR's for targeting, wouldn't it have been cheaper and easier to send advanced Surveyors and hide the program in plain sight?

How inaccurate were the distances between global landmasses in, oh, 1968?

Related to the above, what were the CEP's of the Titan, Minuteman, and Polaris missiles? (That last might be unfair, as that's probably still classified, but I have seen some amazing info in open source material, so there's a challenge for you.)

To all the regulars, I apologize for this wall of text.

To Patrick, please note that each question can be answered in one or two sentences, or with a short list. If you've actually got facts, not obfuscation, that's all you'll need.
Click to expand...

See the point made at the astronomical symposium. Look at the trajectory calculations for all rockets, polaris to Saturn to Trident. They include k2, j, K. You should have no trouble convincing yourself of the truth in Samuel Harrick's presentation.

Also, another point, and there are many many more to make as well beyond this, it is a simple fact that the transoceanic distances were not known to any degree of accuracy in the 1960s. The LRRRs changed all that. We learned about variations in the earth's gravitational field due to mass concentrations. We learned about the distances, midwest to Moscow. And that is only the beginning.

I for one am actually comfortable with this, though it is so obvious that it is bogus now, it really is an embarrassment. I think what they did was reasonable. I think the astronauts suffered. Well maybe not Borman, he only pretended to suffer.
 
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The astronauts were on the moon when the Lick staff received the coordinates. That information comes from personal communications with members of the team there that evening. You may find confirmation of that in some popular accounts as well. In the Apollo 11 Transcript Commentary, the public address officer tells us they are "trying again" to successfully target the laser. This is while the "astronauts are on the moon". Prior to this "trying again", the CapCom had informed Michael Collins that the LRRR was successfully targeted. Of course this was in error. What type of error, no one knows with any certainty.
 
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And it's day three of DodgeWatch

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7540648&postcount=2079

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7541219&postcount=2090

I know answering my questions means admitting you were wrong on a public forum, but it's now very obvious to anyone who reads the posts. You were wrong, again, and it's there preserved in uneditable Black and white.
Perhaps since it's so obvious I'll let you off actually humiliating yourself.

BUT at least answer Kiwi9's questions. What was Reed's most valuable contribution to the day? Curious minds wish to know.
 
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