Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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pilot padron said:
Uhhhhh

May I please be excused if I fail to shed a tear for *your* victims and additionally plead that your 'argument' aggravates rather than 'informs' me.
With that imprimatur, therefore, may I remind you just once again:
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You may, and I won't mention anything about 65k posts of it...ooops! :p

pilot padron said:
1) Losing "four years of their lives", this incidentally as an expected result being unanimously convicted of a horrendous senseless murder IMHO is pretty pitifully paltry.
Particularly when compared to losing one's entire life in a violent macabre senseless murder.
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I'm fortunate I'm not dead too, so are you. We're also both fortunate we didn't spend the last four years in prison, your point?


pilot padron said:
2) Being taken into police headquarters "in the middle of the night" and later being given tea and pastries, IMHO is also rather mild.
This when compared to being bruised, beaten, humiliated, violated, and finally having knives (plural) impaled and twisted in your throat.
All this while in your own home and all this BTW *very late in the night*
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What do you think about Mignini making a ridiculous worldwide pornographic tabloid display of that murder, and linking her name to one of the most absurd miscarriages of justice in recent times?

pilot padron said:
Your priorities in this 'argument' are shockingly horribly misplaced (again).
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I disagree.

pilot padron said:
BTW
You also conveniently forget to mention (also again) that the highest Court in the land with access to ALL preceding evidence and motivations, just happened to mention that the convicted killer that you (again) propose as the end all final solution had 2 others helping him in his dastardly deed.
Eh ????
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If they hadn't done that would it have exonerated Raffaele and Amanda? Think that one all the way through before you bring it up again, and wonder to yourself why the truculent twins Mignini and Maresca would have said such a silly thing...
 
Kaosium said:
Personally I think it would be funny if Judge Hellmann retired to his quarters for a little while, came back with a copy of the news report of the 'two girls one bra' theory proposed by Raffaele's father, and Raffaele's diary entry on the 'pricking' and entered them into the record and told the prosecution they had to absolutely prove they couldn't have happened or the bra-clasp and the knife go into a bag to be thrown into the Tiber, along with a dog, a chicken, a monkey and a snake....

A dog named Comodi
A snake named Maresca
A Monkey named Mignini
A Chicken named Stefanoni

:p
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The Tiber’s too good for them. Plus, it's an insult to dogs and chickens.

IF one had any doubt about funny business, the latest escapades should lay them to rest.

First, Stef “ inadvertently” withholds crucial info from the court.

Then, she resists handing over data to the independent investigators, delaying the appeal trial.

Then, after threatening to sue C&V, Stef claims she filed control data with the court. So what if Hellman can't find it, she has a copy in hand, which just happens to have incorrect and blurry file numbers.

And now, MIRACULOUSLY, she FINDS the control data and Comodi has the gall to ask for an additional delay. Heck, all C&V had to do was ask for the data. Not the prosecution's problem if C&V didn’t ask (though we KNOW they did).

If this isn’t contempt of court, I don’t know what is. Throw them in jail, not into the Tiber.
 
Some Italian commentaries seem to say: "brace yourself"

google trans:

If the court will vindicate the second inspection this will be a blow to our judicial system, because everything else is likely to assume the character of evidence: evidence that has imprisoned for four years, two possibly innocent. If Amanda and Raffaele will be cleared, our justice will be seen as a machine steamroller used lightly and has played with the lives of two boys. For its part, Knox said: "I have faith in Italian justice. Counting on this process because I want to leave the nightmare of Appeals. "
 
lionking said:
Sigh. How many times does it have to be pointed out that they were adults, not "kids". Your post was a pure appeal to emotion.
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Lionking, how did you spend 21k posts on a board populated by rationals without learning what an argument is, a conspiracy theory or even logic? :)

They're kids to me, college kids. I'm surrounded by them. Their annoying constant 'texts,' their grotesque 'music,' their ridiculous references to god knows what they're even talking about, and stupid TV shows I've never heard of--some of them are even soccer fans! :eek:

That doesn't mean you should grab two of them snogging in the corner somewhere, drag them away and cage them! :)

Incidentally, you ought to have your emotion appealed to, as all attempts to argue anything else has failed utterly.
 
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AmyStrange said:
-

Won't Hellmann get jealous? That can't be a good thing. Now tell me again why Raffaele is the leader here... shouldn't Amanda lead and shouldn't she be in the other room with a bullhorn...
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Those two have been at it so long now they I'd imagine they could swap roles with ease
 
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two thoughts on negative controls

RoseMontague said:
I'm betting the negative controls are now legible and have the right file numbers.
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RoseMontague,

Citations offered by members ("Tarnish on the Gold Standard," for example) here have shown that negative controls are often what is faked when forensic scientists engage in fraudulent work. I would like to say again that the electronic data files (which would have included control runs) were repeated requested by the defense and not given to them.

Also, it is worth pointing out that the negative controls would have had to have been performed properly to be meaningful. The host of the blog forensicDNAconsulting said of the knife profile "If sample B underwent concentration procedures, it is important that appropriate negative controls were also concentrated to demonstrate that the procedure did not introduce contamination."
 
Wildhorses said:
The Tiber’s too good for them. Plus, it's an insult to dogs and chickens.

IF one had any doubt about funny business, the latest escapades should lay them to rest.

First, Stef “ inadvertently” withholds crucial info from the court.

Then, she resists handing over data to the independent investigators, delaying the appeal trial.

Then, after threatening to sue C&V, Stef claims she filed control data with the court. So what if Hellman can't find it, she has a copy in hand, which just happens to have incorrect and blurry file numbers.

And now, MIRACULOUSLY, she FINDS the control data and Comodi has the gall to ask for an additional delay. Heck, all C&V had to do was ask for the data. Not the prosecution's problem if C&V didn’t ask (though we KNOW they did).

If this isn’t contempt of court, I don’t know what is. Throw them in jail, not into the Tiber.
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The leather bag gets tied shut, Bronco, very securely... :)

page 7 said:
The poena cullei (penalty of the sack) was a very gruesome capital punishment. It involved sewing a criminal into a sack made of leather; also sewn into the sack were a dog, a monkey, a snake, and a rooster. The sack was then hurled into a body of water (Bauman, 30). The sack penalty was worse than most because the feeling was that the sack stripped human dignity far more than most of the other punishments because one was dying with animals and he would not receive a proper burial, as would have been the case for decapitation and vivicombustion, for example. The sack was also primarily for the lower class, but it would have been used on any who were found guilty of parricidium, since it was one of the accepted penalties for that crime (Bauman, 72).
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I don't think they'd all fit on a meathook.

:p
 
Kaosium

What is their focus, Coulsdon?
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My opinion of their focus is fairly obvious and is based on their public statements that they accept the prosecution’s case; they believe Raffaele and Amanda are culpable and as such should face a custodial sentence.

That doesn't mean anything Coulsdon, they couldn't possibly have decided anything else otherwise by the same rules they'd have exonerated Raffaele and Amanda, and that would have been even weirder, wouldn't it?
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Well the Supreme Court (SC) could hardly name Raffaele and Amanda as we know Guede opted for a different legal route and this was his final appeal. However, I still wonder why they went as far as stating “Guede and unknown others were responsible for Meredith’s murder”, given that Raffaele and Amanda’s second appeal is taking place. On the other hand others have stated that SC’s final report on Guede has no bearing on Raffaele and Amanda’s appeal, equally it is a fact that Guede, Raffaele and Amanda are the only people arrested and charged for Meredith’s murder.

Think about it.
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I am more curious what the jury are making of the appeal, I also wonder how the two judges will guide them through the evidence presented in the appeal along with evidence from their first trial.
 
http://www.umbrialeft.it/notizie/processo-meredith-si-ritorna-aula-processo-dappello

The pace of the court proceedings is good. Apparently they're done with the experts.

But I have problem with translating this:
Riprendera' nel pomeriggio con l'esame dei consulenti delle parti sempre in materia di Dna.
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After the break they're going to continue about the DNA. But who's going to be questioned by whom? consulenti delle parti suggests either that it's now turn for the other lawyers to ask questions or it's Stafanoni's turn to take the stand ??
 
Latza Closeau is useless. I want to know who is wearing what. No twits. Did they let her into the courtroom at all?
 
CoulsdonUK said:
Kaosium
My opinion of their focus is fairly obvious and is based on their public statements that they accept the prosecution’s case; they believe Raffaele and Amanda are culpable and as such should face a custodial sentence.
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Do you think it wise to attempt to prematurely condemn people considered innocent by law when a far more likely party has already been convicted in totality and is in prison? If the accused are found not guilty of the crime do you suppose they might be angry and seek recourse if the bounds of propriety have been overstepped?

Incidentally, is making false claims about evidence of a crime considered libel in the United Kingdom?

CoulsdonUK said:
Well the Supreme Court (SC) could hardly name Raffaele and Amanda as we know Guede opted for a different legal route and this was his final appeal. However, I still wonder why they went as far as stating “Guede and unknown others were responsible for Meredith’s murder”, given that Raffaele and Amanda’s second appeal is taking place. On the other hand others have stated that SC’s final report on Guede has no bearing on Raffaele and Amanda’s appeal, equally it is a fact that Guede, Raffaele and Amanda are the only people arrested and charged for Meredith’s murder.
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You know what I think? I think if they wrote a motivations for Rudy Guede without allowing for the possibility another trial pending might convict two others they'd look silly. I think that's about the only relevance that ever had, and Mignini and Maresca bringing it up were just trying to maintain an absolution of their guilt in the press to influence the jury and others overseas.

CoulsdonUK said:
I am more curious what the jury are making of the appeal, I also wonder how the two judges will guide them through the evidence presented in the appeal along with evidence from their first trial.
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I wonder the same things, and I'm curious as to what you think is actually evidence in the Massei report. Not the conjecture made from the fact presented, but the raw data itself.
 
Lord Denning's appalling vista

Katody Matrass said:
Some Italian commentaries seem to say: "brace yourself"

google trans:

If the court will vindicate the second inspection this will be a blow to our judicial system, because everything else is likely to assume the character of evidence: evidence that has imprisoned for four years, two possibly innocent. If Amanda and Raffaele will be cleared, our justice will be seen as a machine steamroller used lightly and has played with the lives of two boys. For its part, Knox said: "I have faith in Italian justice. Counting on this process because I want to leave the nightmare of Appeals. "
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Katody Matrass,

Nick Cohen wrote about the Birmingham Six, "Before his Lordship's court were the six men who had been convicted of the Birmingham pub bombings. They alleged that the West Midlands police had beaten them up, and were suing for damages. Denning realised that accepting the police had beaten them up meant accepting that the police had beaten false confessions out of them, which meant accepting that the police had framed innocent men for one of the worst IRA atrocities on the British mainland. 'This,' said Denning as he dismissed the case, 'is such an appalling vista that every sensible person in the land would say, "It cannot be right these actions should go any further."' The men spent 10 more years in jail before the grudging courts accepted that they weren't guilty after all."

It may have been Darat who first quoted Lord Denning in one of the Knox threads last February, but I did not comment upon it at the time. I hope that people would see a not guilty verdict as saying something positive about the Italian system, and I also hope that this case may suggest areas where the system could be tweaked, especially in the area of forensic discovery. These are hopes, rather than expectations.
 
Ms. Kerchers's recent letter to the Italian courts confirms what I've always suspected about her family;

They feel Amanda "is, uniquivocably, culpapable" for Meredith's death.

In what way, one might ask?

I'll tell you - in that Amanda deserted Meredith. Nothing more than that. The two were the only young foreigners in an Italian household, and thus had an implicit 'duty' to watch out for one and other, and Amanda just up and left her alone to be with her new boyfriend.

For this alone they are quite happy to see she and Raff rot in prison - they apparently don't give a toss whether or not she was actually "involved" in the murder.

Then there's the money.

They are not going to come out of this extraordinary affair with much to be proud of, IMO.

I said much the same thing way back on the original "cartwheel'' thread in early 2010, and the (then) resident PMF'ers predictably went spazzo - 'Kermit' referred to my comments in one of his pathetic "open letters", written to Gogerty Marriott (".... sincerely, Kermit" - LMFAO).

(I'm hopeful that a few PMFers will now drop dead in pure apoplexy).
 
CoulsdonUK said:
Kaosium



My opinion of their focus is fairly obvious and is based on their public statements that they accept the prosecution’s case; they believe Raffaele and Amanda are culpable and as such should face a custodial sentence.
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Coulsdon, they obviously do think this. What's puzzling to me is how they think it's conducive to a fair trial to talk about their belief in culpability whilst the appeal is ongoing. I think it's perfectly understandable that their judgment is clouded by emotion following the kind of trauma they must have suffered following Meredith's murder. But it is clouded judgement nonetheless.
It would be much more appropriate for them to wait until the judgement of the court and express their opinions then, perhaps to influence sentencing. The reason for this is that technically speaking the Kerchers' opinion about culpability is no more valid or informed than any of the lay judges (for example) or anyone who's attended all the court sessions and paid close attnetion to the case and the evidence. However, what the recent public statements (during the appeal) have appeared to do, is try and influence public opinion (and jury opinion?) about culpability by implying (inadvertently, possibly)that their status as victims (and their trauma and grief) gives their opinion of culpability some kind of extra weight, or coming from some special insight.
Now it would be more appropriate for their expression of grief and anger for the defendants to come after a (guilty) verdict, to influence sentencing, because here they do have some expertise and extra insight to bring to bear- they alone have gone through the unendurable pain of losing a loved one in the most horrific way imaginable, and they have suffered at the hands of whoever did this. This is relevant in sentencing.
You might argue that AK & RS's families have been trying to influence jury opinion in a more pronounced manner. However, people automatically can see that these people have a 'stake' in the issue of culpability, where the Kerchers don't (or shouldn't).
 
pilot padron said:
Uhhhhh

May I please be excused if I fail to shed a tear for *your* victims and additionally plead that your 'argument' aggravates rather than 'informs' me.
With that imprimatur, therefore, may I remind you just once again:

1) Losing "four years of their lives", this incidentally as an expected result being unanimously convicted of a horrendous senseless murder IMHO is pretty pitifully paltry.
Particularly when compared to losing one's entire life in a violent macabre senseless murder.
All this while being completely innocent of even suspicion of even a scintilla of criminal activity.

2) Being taken into police headquarters "in the middle of the night" and later being given tea and pastries, IMHO is also rather mild.
This when compared to being bruised, beaten, humiliated, violated, and finally having knives (plural) impaled and twisted in your throat.
All this while in your own home and all this BTW *very late in the night*

Your priorities in this 'argument' are shockingly horribly misplaced (again).

BTW
You also conveniently forget to mention (also again) that the highest Court in the land with access to ALL preceding evidence and motivations, just happened to mention that the convicted killer that you (again) propose as the end all final solution had 2 others helping him in his dastardly deed.
Eh ????
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Nonsensical. So there are knives "plural", when the kitchen knife has been shown to have no blood, was not cleaned, and does not match the wounds or the imprint on the sheet.

A statement about Knox being given "tea and pastries" when you have zero evidence this actually happened. Oh, the police said so! I guess it must be true then! I guess everything the police say is true, how dare anyone question any of it!
 
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