Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Teddy2007]

Interesting post; is it letter really so surprising that the murder victim’s sister believes in the prosecution’s case and that Raffaele and Amanda are culpable in Meredith’s murder. Is it really that amazing that the families of murder victims speak out to remind people that their loved one was brutally murdered?

It's not surprising given that the Kercher family clearly believe in Amanda's and Raffaele's guilt, guided by Maresca probably, but this letter isn't just a reminder, is it? It's also a subtle appeal to remind people that Amanda and Raffaele are guilty.

By the way do you have any information that supports your view that Maresca has orchestrated Stephanie’s letter?

Nope, I don't, my belief is total speculation, a bit like Massei's report.

 

[Kaosium]

Interesting post; is it letter really so surprising that the murder victim’s sister believes in the prosecution’s case and that Raffaele and Amanda are culpable in Meredith’s murder. Is it really that amazing that the families of murder victims speak out to remind people that their loved one was brutally murdered?

I include a recent article about the parents of a murdered UK teenager saying they want the return of the death penalty. http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16061450

By the way do you have any information that supports your view that Maresca has orchestrated Stephanie’s letter?

The difference being the killer of Meredith who matches the evidence at the scene was already found and convicted. This is about the two kids they arrested before that who were taken into backrooms in the middle of the night and have lost four years of their lives when they were innocent of everything.

 

[Kaosium]

You're exactly right. The testing and interpretation of the tests are only one of the areas that Conti/Vecchiotti have exposed as incompetent. The fact that there were so many egregious procedural errors related to the identification, collection, handling and storage of the DNA evidence means that there was a very real possibility of contamination well before the samples ever reached the lab. Therefore, even if the lab work were somehow shown to be impeccable (which I doubt will be shown in any case), the GIGO principle means that the ultimate results should be inadmissible anyhow.

I see that the documents in question appear to be the negative control charts that were the subject of dispute at the previous hearing. And apparently Comodi is now suggesting that Conti/Vecchiotti could have had these charts during their investigation, if only they had asked for them! To say that I find that hard to believe - especially in the light of Ms Stefanoni's blatant obfuscation and delay tactics over the source data in general - is a massive understatement...

Maybe it's just an otherwise irrelevant CYA face-saving gesture, as in 'I wasn't trying to enter false data last time, honest Judge! I realize this doesn't discredit the report as you said, I just wanted to make sure you knew I just made a mistake last time.'

*bats eyes*
*wiggles hips*

 

[CoulsdonUK]

It's not surprising given that the Kercher family clearly believe in Amanda's and Raffaele's guilt, guided by Maresca probably, but this letter isn't just a reminder, is it? It's also a subtle appeal to remind people that Amanda and Raffaele are guilty.

Nope, I don't, my belief is total speculation, a bit like Massei's report.

Just like Rebecca Aylward's Mother (did you read the link?). I believe Stephanie Kercher’s letter is understandable just like her Father’s articles, her sister and his daughter was brutally murdered they clearly accept the prosecution’s case. Raffaele and Amanda’s family, legal team believe that they are innocent, so everything from those directly involved isn’t particularly unexpected.

 

[JREF2010]

And apparently Comodi is now suggesting that Conti/Vecchiotti could have had these charts during their investigation, if only they had asked for them! To say that I find that hard to believe - especially in the light of Ms Stefanoni's blatant obfuscation and delay tactics over the source data in general - is a massive understatement...

Now, a year or so later, they magically find the critical data.

Doesn't it seem like a "prop", a covert move for the next Supreme Court request?

Then again, after seeing the great care taken of the bra clasp storage, maybe they really couldn't find the paperwork to the most critical tests in this case.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

The difference being the killer of Meredith who matches the evidence at the scene was already found and convicted. This is about the two kids they arrested before that who were taken into backrooms in the middle of the night and have lost four years of their lives when they were innocent of everything.

I guess the Kercher family’s focus is different than Raffaele and Amanda’s family; they have lived with Meredith’s senseless and brutal murder for the past four years, regardless of the outcome of this appeal nothing changes for them. As for Guede as we all know the supreme courts final motivational report found that Guede did not act alone and that unknown others were involved in Meredith’s murder.

 

[zeb]

The Mikie fin of the prosecution

You're exactly right. The testing and interpretation of the tests are only one of the areas that Conti/Vecchiotti have exposed as incompetent. The fact that there were so many egregious procedural errors related to the identification, collection, handling and storage of the DNA evidence means that there was a very real possibility of contamination well before the samples ever reached the lab. Therefore, even if the lab work were somehow shown to be impeccable (which I doubt will be shown in any case), the GIGO principle means that the ultimate results should be inadmissible anyhow.

I see that the documents in question appear to be the negative control charts that were the subject of dispute at the previous hearing. And apparently Comodi is now suggesting that Conti/Vecchiotti could have had these charts during their investigation, if only they had asked for them! To say that I find that hard to believe - especially in the light of Ms Stefanoni's blatant obfuscation and delay tactics over the source data in general - is a massive understatement...

LJ
I think you have made a got point there, if Dr Stefanoni said that the information was there, if the experts asked for it? The question is ? Why did the Judge had to order the Dr Stefanoni to hand over the electronic evidence.
The point I am trying to make is that the prosecution should had very thing ready to go in this Appeal.
But they did not.
The defence yes, the delay would be down to looking at the new evidence.
Put the prosecution, NO, they should have their new facts ready, as you say it is a bit a of bad fish that smells when it has gone off.
But also that Hellmann, has got to look at these new facts, but after the Mikie fin that the prosecution tried before, I do think this would not take long.

 

[Diocletus]

Just like Rebecca Aylward's Mother (did you read the link?). I believe Stephanie Kercher’s letter is understandable just like her Father’s articles, her sister and his daughter was brutally murdered they clearly accept the prosecution’s case. Raffaele and Amanda’s family, legal team believe that they are innocent, so everything from those directly involved isn’t particularly unexpected.

It doesn't matter what Stephanie Kercher thinks. If she thinks they are guilty, then fine.

But, I fail to understand what business she has writing letters to the judge. She cannot offer any admissible evidence relevant to guilt/innocence and she is already represented at the proceeding by counsel. If she has something to say, that is appropriate to say in court, then her lawyer should say it or she should show up in court and ask to testify. If she has questions about what is happening, then it is the job of her lawyer to explain things. I think that the judge will have no problem understanding this.

My personal opinion is that the letter is an ill-advised attempted cheap shot. If I were the judge, it would tell me more about the Kerchers and their counsel then it would about the culpability of the defendants.

 

[Kaosium]

I guess the Kercher family’s focus is different than Raffaele and Amanda’s family; they have lived with Meredith’s senseless and brutal murder for the past four years, regardless of the outcome of this appeal nothing changes for them.

What is their focus, Coulsdon?

As for Guede as we all know the supreme courts final motivational report found that Guede did not act alone and that unknown others were involved in Meredith’s murder.

That doesn't mean anything Coulsdon, they couldn't possibly have decided anything else otherwise by the same rules they'd have exonerated Raffaele and Amanda, and that would have been even weirder, wouldn't it?

Think about it.

 

[lionking]

The difference being the killer of Meredith who matches the evidence at the scene was already found and convicted. This is about the two kids they arrested before that who were taken into backrooms in the middle of the night and have lost four years of their lives when they were innocent of everything.

In the midst of comments about Stephanie Kercher's letter being an appeal to emotion, we have this.

 

[pilot padron]

Please have an iota of respect.... for the real victim

The difference being the killer of Meredith who matches the evidence at the scene was already found and convicted. This is about the two kids they arrested before that who were taken into backrooms in the middle of the night and have lost four years of their lives when they were innocent of everything.

Uhhhhh

May I please be excused if I fail to shed a tear for *your* victims and additionally plead that your 'argument' aggravates rather than 'informs' me.
With that imprimatur, therefore, may I remind you just once again:

1) Losing "four years of their lives", this incidentally as an expected result being unanimously convicted of a horrendous senseless murder IMHO is pretty pitifully paltry.
Particularly when compared to losing one's entire life in a violent macabre senseless murder.
All this while being completely innocent of even suspicion of even a scintilla of criminal activity.

2) Being taken into police headquarters "in the middle of the night" and later being given tea and pastries, IMHO is also rather mild.
This when compared to being bruised, beaten, humiliated, violated, and finally having knives (plural) impaled and twisted in your throat.
All this while in your own home and all this BTW *very late in the night*

Your priorities in this 'argument' are shockingly horribly misplaced (again).

BTW
You also conveniently forget to mention (also again) that the highest Court in the land with access to ALL preceding evidence and motivations, just happened to mention that the convicted killer that you (again) propose as the end all final solution had 2 others helping him in his dastardly deed.
Eh ????

 

[Diocletus]

By the way do you have any information that supports your view that Maresca has orchestrated Stephanie’s letter?

Well, it matches his cheap-ass, classless M.O. perfectly.

 

[JREF2010]

LJ
But also that Hellmann, has got to look at these new facts, but after the Mikie fin that the prosecution tried before, I do think this would not take long.

and they are aware Stefanoni made comments to press charges against them.
it was in the news, C&V surely know Stefanoni made these statements or threats.

so its especially odd the same who threaten ask for a favor.

surely the prosecution wouldn't go as far as to falsify documents, and then turn it in late as the "missing controls"?

I find it highly suspicious activity, considering how many years this has gone on that they had to find and prepare the documents, and the fact the Knife and Bra Clasp DNA work was the most damning evidence of this trial.

Where did they find them? In someones shoe locker or over by the lounge microwave oven?

 

[CoulsdonUK]

It doesn't matter what Stephanie Kercher thinks. If she thinks they are guilty, then fine.

But, I fail to understand what business she has writing letters to the judge. She cannot offer any admissible evidence relevant to guilt/innocence and she is already represented at the proceeding by counsel. If she has something to say, that is appropriate to say in court, then her lawyer should say it or she should show up in court and ask to testify. If she has questions about what is happening, then it is the job of her lawyer to explain things. I think that the judge will have no problem understanding this.

My personal opinion is that the letter is an ill-advised attempted cheap shot. If I were the judge, it would tell me more about the Kerchers and their counsel then it would about the culpability of the defendants.

I note your opinion, fair enough.

One could say the same thing about Amanda’s parents also having legal representation they have chosen to speak out via the media during the past four years and continue to do so.

My personal opinion is that I believe all the family’s directly involved have the equal right to speak out; I doubt that anything that has been said by any of them will have any impact on the outcome of the appeal, although others may disagree.

 

[Kaosium]

In the midst of comments about Stephanie Kercher's letter being an appeal to emotion, we have this.

Does the substance of it change if you substitute 'Raffaele and Amanda?' Was I making an argument or a statement? Do you want to see if we can find out if you're any better at pedantry than you are at logic?

Stephy: 'I will be sad if Raffaele and Amanda aren't burnt at the stake like you promised they would be.'

Kaosium: 'This isn't about you.'

 

[JREF2010]

Whose the Liar?

Comodi said "Vecchiotti and Conti could have had them if they had asked for them."

and


On Monday, prosecutor Manula Comodi said "the records had been found....".


So which response is the lie?

 

[lionking]

Does the substance of it change if you substitute 'Raffaele and Amanda?' Was I making an argument or a statement? Do you want to see if we can find out if you're any better at pedantry than you are at logic?

Stephy: 'I will be sad if Raffaele and Amanda aren't burnt at the stake like you promised they would be.'

Kaosium: 'This isn't about you.'

Sigh. How many times does it have to be pointed out that they were adults, not "kids". Your post was a pure appeal to emotion.

 

[Diocletus]

I note your opinion, fair enough.

One could say the same thing about Amanda’s parents also having legal representation they have chosen to speak out via the media during the past four years and continue to do so.

My personal opinion is that I believe all the family’s directly involved have the equal right to speak out; I doubt that anything that has been said by any of them will have any impact on the outcome of the appeal, although others may disagree.

My understanding is that we are talking about a letter written to the court? That is certainly different than anything that the defendants' families have tried to do. And, frankly, kind of a surprising thing for someone from a US/UK background to try to pull.

It may not effect the outcome of the appeal, but she certainly HOPES that it will.

 

[zeb]

It doesn't matter what Stephanie Kercher thinks. If she thinks they are guilty, then fine.

But, I fail to understand what business she has writing letters to the judge. She cannot offer any admissible evidence relevant to guilt/innocence and she is already represented at the proceeding by counsel. If she has something to say, that is appropriate to say in court, then her lawyer should say it or she should show up in court and ask to testify. If she has questions about what is happening, then it is the job of her lawyer to explain things. I think that the judge will have no problem understanding this.

My personal opinion is that the letter is an ill-advised attempted cheap shot. If I were the judge, it would tell me more about the Kerchers and their counsel then it would about the culpability of the defendants.

S Kercher as evey right to write to the judge of this Appeal, and I am sure that Judge Hellmann would have took her letter and replyed in person.
But writing to a family lawyer knowing that would be release to the world press.
That is a different matter.
The prosecution are on their last legs, and the tic tack is to delay, delay,
Delay for what.
I do not think this will not last for to long, the Judge as gone for the main vein, of the prosecution facts.
And they do not stand up in the court of law.
As you say it was a cheep shoot.
But there again I sure that step and her sister had many hours talking about girly stuff, that the boys in the family would not know of.

 

[Katody Matrass]

It appears that Hellmann brushed away the nonsense with the miraculously "found" controls. He said he'll decide later. In the meantime the questioning continues, yet no news about any dents in the C&V opinion. Looks like Maresca and Comodi are not doing too well.