Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[Nick Terry]

What we need is an easy test to determine if the US media is totally controlled by the Zionists, and here it is .... submit the following ad to the classified ad section of the paper .....

For sale - unused copy of 'The First Holohoax, Jewish Fund Raising Campaigns with Holocaust Claims During WW One' by Don Heddesheimer.

No paper in the US or Europe will accept the ad.

Nobody in their right mind is going to try and place such an ad anyway if there was a genuine commercial motive. Heddesheimer's book is advertised on eBay, amazon.com Marketplace (where it's also available direct from amazon), and a couple of thousand more outlets. It can be downloaded for free all over the place. Thanks to this, the resale value of a typical copy is limited to nonexistent. That's just how things are in the digital age. There is no point in placing such a classified ad.

You're not doing very well on this. Most of all, you're not considering the possibility that newspapers might not want to give any space to Holocaust deniers regardless of who owns them.

Holocaust denial just isn't socially acceptable in the US. I'll agree with Clayton and you about that. What I and others do not agree with you guys is whether that means it's because of your fantasy "Zionists".

It's been said several times before, but there are a whole bunch of loony theories out there, right? Flat-earthism, 9/11 conspiracy theories, Velikovsky's theories, JFK assassination conspiracy theories.... the list goes on, and on, and on.

A whole bunch of those theories are now sufficiently ridiculed that newspapers will not give them the time of day, except if they want to have a laugh.

The Flat Earth Society's website has a considerably higher internet ranking than any Holocaust denial website. They're pushing somethign that's just outright wrong, agreed? Would newspapers bother to accept ads from them? Or advertorials pushing flat-earthism?

I don't know, but you could always find out by placing an ad for flat-earthism and an ad for holocaust denial, using flat-earthism as your control.

If the flat-earthism ad got accepted and the denial ad rejected, all that'd prove is that denial is regarded as more offensive.

You'd also have to add another control. Try and place an ad for The Occidental Quarterly or another 'racialist' publication. Watch what happens.
I'd bet that such an ad would also be rejected. That would prove that racism is regarded as offensive.

Unfortunately, it still wouldn't prove that the media is "controlled by Zionists".

 

[TSR]

What we need is an easy test to determine if the US media is totally controlled by the Zionists, and here it is .... submit the following ad to the classified ad section of the paper .....

For sale - unused copy of 'The First Holohoax, Jewish Fund Raising Campaigns with Holocaust Claims During WW One' by Don Heddesheimer.

No paper in the US or Europe will accept the ad.

.
Have you such a volume? If so, PM me your actual name and phone # to put in the ad and I will prove you wrong. One of the local papers will allow personal property selling for under $100 to be advertised for free -- I figure I'll list it at $.02 OBO. When it is published, I will scan the page and post it here in full, save only for obscuring your information.

Since I do not have an unused copy, my placing the with ad my info would be dishonest -- and unlike denier chimps, I try not to be dishonest.

It's put up or shut up time. And when you're proven wrong, it's shut up time about your 'Jooosh control of the media' delusion -- do we have a deal?
.

 

[Corsair 115]

What we need is an easy test to determine if the US media is totally controlled by the Zionists, and here it is .... submit the following ad to the classified ad section of the paper .....

For sale - unused copy of 'The First Holohoax, Jewish Fund Raising Campaigns with Holocaust Claims During WW One' by Don Heddesheimer.

No paper in the US or Europe will accept the ad.

Your "experiment" is flawed. You are assuming that any rejection would be based on the fact that it is due to Zionist control of the media. You are overlooking the possibility that rejection might be due to something far simpler and decidedly non-conspiratorial: the submission was evaluated as junk and deemed not worth publishing.

And in any case this alleged global conspiracy of yours matters little in the internet age when self-publishing is an easily available option—all you've got to do is put your screed up on a web site for all the world to read. Printing out a hard copy for distribution is relatively easy as well.

 

[jhunter1163]

Address the argument, not the arguer, and be civil and polite. Also, please refrain from "chimp" references. Any further such references will be actioned. Thank you for your anticipated cooperation.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: jhunter1163

 

[Saggy]

Thought control in a free society has been studied by Noam Chomsky, who writes in 'How Propaganda Works in the West':

The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.

And this is exactly the way it is done in the United States. Any viewpoint not acceptable to establishment is completely excluded from the media, from politics, and from academia. The Zionists have made questioning any aspect of the holocaust hoax social, professional, political, and academic suicide in the US and western world. Ironically, it is Chomsky who gave the most vicious expression of the prohibition on any discussion of the holohoax, writing

The Holocaust was the most extreme atrocity in human history, and we lose our humanity if we are even willing to enter the arena of debate with those who seek to deny or underplay Nazi crimes.

By entering into the arena of argument and counterargument, of technical feasibility and tactics, of footnotes and citations, by accepting the presumption of legitimacy of debate on certain issues, one has already lost one’s humanity.

This is from one of the world's greatest phony 'champions of free speech.' Chomsky, like every 'liberal' Zionist, is a fraud when it comes to the holohoax.

 

[LemmyCaution]

. . . And the most recent outrage to rock the historical community

I think it is disgusting and I also think Dr Terry should be free to visit any site he wishes and carry out GPR scans.

Shame on those who tried to intimidate him!

So what did this Eric Hunt steal or otherwise misappropriate from said library? Thank you in advance for answering honestly for a change.

 

[little grey rabbit]

So what did this Eric Hunt steal or otherwise misappropriate from said library? Thank you in advance for answering honestly for a change.

You will have to ask this chappie

You'd have to ask Michael Keller of Stanford University Library

Michael.Keller@stanford.edu telephone 650-723-5553

Possibly he put some videos online - but this is hardly stealing. Surely survivors would want their testimony to reach as wide an audience as possible?

 

[LemmyCaution]

You will have to ask this chappie

Possibly he put some videos online - but this is hardly stealing. Surely survivors would want their testimony to reach as wide an audience as possible?

"Possibly"? So without permission, you're implying, Hunt took copyrighted material and posted it online in the context of his own revisionist Website, to which, no doubt, the copyright owners objected, as is part of their prerogative as owners of the material? And you tried to pass off that possible misuse of someone else's work as a ban on legitimate research and an "outrage"? We've been down this road before, and, frankly, it is not every Tom, Dick, and Denier who has the right to take someone else's material and gain from it. And, frankly, an action against the theft of people's work has nothing to do with denial or free speech.

So you are equating illegal use of someone's videos with a ban on research by deniers? This is low, even for you. Why didn't you allude to all this in your first post on this topic?

 

[Saggy]

Read all about Eric Hunt's experiences with the Stanford Library here ....

http://www.holocaustdenier.com/2011/09/spielberg%E2%80%99s-cabal-banned-me-from-stanford-libraries/

Here's a taste ....

In a sane world, an Ivy League University would be embarrassed to fund and prop up totally historically false, Zionist hate fiction such as Zisblatt and Paul Parks’ “testimonies”. The correct reaction Stanford should have to my analysis of Spielberg’s Shoah Foundation would be to stop funding the Shoah Foundation and dump their laughable propaganda from their libraries in order to maintain their prestigious reputation.

But they are not embarrassed.

Let’s embarrass them. Spread the link to my documentary The Last Days of the Big Lie and let the filmmakers themselves personally know how you feel about their anti-German Oscar winning hate hoax The Last Days, which includes two false claims of Nazi “experimentation”, two liars who claim to have escaped from inside gas chambers, sick scatological lies about a Jewish girl repeatedly swallowing and defecating diamonds in Auschwitz for a year, and even a black American soldier who claims to have liberated Dachau – when in reality documents prove he was hundreds of miles away.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Thought control in a free society has been studied by Noam Chomsky, who writes in 'How Propaganda Works in the West':

The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.

And this is exactly the way it is done in the United States. Any viewpoint not acceptable to establishment is completely excluded from the media, from politics, and from academia. The Zionists have made questioning any aspect of the holocaust hoax social, professional, political, and academic suicide in the US and western world. Ironically, it is Chomsky who gave the most vicious expression of the prohibition on any discussion of the holohoax, writing

The Holocaust was the most extreme atrocity in human history, and we lose our humanity if we are even willing to enter the arena of debate with those who seek to deny or underplay Nazi crimes.

By entering into the arena of argument and counterargument, of technical feasibility and tactics, of footnotes and citations, by accepting the presumption of legitimacy of debate on certain issues, one has already lost one’s humanity.

This is from one of the world's greatest phony 'champions of free speech.' Chomsky, like every 'liberal' Zionist, is a fraud when it comes to the holohoax.

Excellent post. It reinforces my 'flow' explanation.

 

[TSR]

Read all about Eric Hunt's experiences with the Stanford Library here ....

http://www.holocaustdenier.com/2011/09/spielberg%E2%80%99s-cabal-banned-me-from-stanford-libraries/

Here's a taste ...

.
... of a denier ignoring the concept of copyright, just as expected.

The same response would have come if I had checked out a copy of the March of the Penguins movie and bragged about making it available for free download online.

Or would that only apply if it was "Pottewitz"?

Meanwhile, there seems to be glitch in the PM system here, I never got your name and phone number for that ad.

You *did* want your 'experiment' to be done, right?
.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Stanford. An Ivy League university? Do you or this Hunt even know which coast Stanford is on? Or Hahvahd?

So what happened? Did Hunt "borrow" copyrighted material without permission? Is his account complete and honest? Tell us, please.

 

[dance]

How fascinating.

1) You have left out all the same things that Krege also forgot to mention. What university have you engaged to process the raw data? (Did you forget this process like Krege did?)

2) Why don't you simply contact your fellow holocaust denier, Richard Krege and pay for him to complete his work? ( Is this because you don't trust holocaust deniers?)



3) I didn't know he was also a forensic archaeologist whereas your "venture" would require a forensic archaeologist wouldn't it? (Did you forget this when you started fabricating this plan yesterday?)

4) Can you link us to your scientific paper which states what evidence you are looking for in exact terms, for example the controls, attunement to Polish soil conditions, comparative information to other sites with human ash remains using GPR, your proposed scanning grid etc etc?

5) Assuming that you are lying through your teeth and have never set anything out on paper, would you use your generously offered money to pay a forensic archaeologist to write a report for you on how such a venture should take place and share this with us? ( or are you just crapping on again?)

Your posting of elements 1 through 5 of a proposed forensic anthropology research solution to the Jewish holocaust question under discussion seems to have been dropped like a hot potato since you introduced it last night. A scientific approach to the subject seems the most intelligent response to me and I did not find your post at all confusing. All of the other ranting, raving, intentional distortion and misrepresentation above is just so much noise to me.

Undisputed scientific evidence is key here. Fanatics will dispute anything and everything regardless of evidence or logic to the contrary, and will always find fault with any evidence or proof. (Even the most fundamentally accepted mathematical proofs will be challenged if tied to something that touches the fanatical nerve.)

So I say to the deniers, put your science where your mouth is. Put up or shut up.

 

[little grey rabbit]

Your posting of elements 1 through 5 of a proposed forensic anthropology research solution to the Jewish holocaust question under discussion seems to have been dropped like a hot potato since you introduced it last night. A scientific approach to the subject seems the most intelligent response to me and I did not find your post at all confusing. All of the other ranting, raving, intentional distortion and misrepresentation above is just so much noise to me.

Undisputed scientific evidence is key here. Fanatics will dispute anything and everything regardless of evidence or logic to the contrary, and will always find fault with any evidence or proof. (Even the most fundamentally accepted mathematical proofs will be challenged if tied to something that touches the fanatical nerve.)

So I say to the deniers, put your science where your mouth is. Put up or shut up.

My offer to Dr Terry still stands. If he obtains permission to scan Treblinka I will
a. provide him with return airfares on Whiz air to Warsaw
b. arrange for hire of GPR equipment
c. provide an expert operator
d. provide him with two nights accommodation in an inexpensive but clean hotel
e. arrange transfer to Treblinka for collection of data.


As I envisage it collection of data should take no more than a day. Dr Terry and collaborator(s) of his choice shall have first use of the data for a publication. All I request is all raw data be made available online in a reasonable time period (say 6 months), fully annotated, so that everyone can reconstruct "Under Treblinka" for themselves.

Obviously this would be utterly terrible for Dr Terry's career, so I have no doubt he will again reject this offer.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Your posting of elements 1 through 5 of a proposed forensic anthropology research solution to the Jewish holocaust question under discussion seems to have been dropped like a hot potato since you introduced it last night.

Well to be frank it is a silly post. There are tons of other forms of evidence in documents, photos and eye-witness reports concerning Treblinka that already offer the conventional historic view. Treblinka was already excavated by the Poles and they already obtained forensic evidence of human ash. The Treblinka monument has large concrete areas and I'm not sure if GPR is the right technology anyway. The Poles did their work when the evidence was fresh...70 years on is probably not going to produce "better evidence" That's why I suggest LGR obtain a report on how such a further GPR scan should proceed.

A scientific approach to the subject seems the most intelligent response to me and I did not find your post at all confusing.

The intent of my post was to poke fun at the diverse views of holocaust deniers. A man called Richard Krege, a holocaust denier, claimed to have performed a GPR scan and soil sample on Treblinka in 1999. He claimed there was no evidence. Holocaust Deniers made him a leading light.....and then the English TV show "Time Team" started being broadcast. Five years olds became aware that GPR raw data had to be processed by one of a handful of universities. So someone asked Richard Krege "which university did this for you?" And that was the end of that hoax by holocaust deniers. There never was a "Krege Report". Krege probably dumped the soil samples outside the main gate as he drove off if indeed he made any.

Undisputed scientific evidence is key here.

Here are translated parts of the original Polish report together with comments on how deniers ignore already existing evidence.
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/07/polish-investigations-of-treblinka.html

So I say to the deniers, put your science where your mouth is. Put up or shut up.

Frankly I don't think any of them have any money left. They all go to Iran for a lovely holocaust denial conference about "open debate". Ahmadinejad states
(Reuters) - President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad called the Holocaust a lie
http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/09/18/us-iran-idUSTRE58H17S20090918

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said the Holocaust was a "myth"
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jh9nnA3zzgEArEoEgDFu9BngHEnw

And yet no holocaust denier or member of the public can get a copy of the speeches. So much for "open discussion". Ahmadinejad simply used them. Anti-Iranian, right wing, American organisations probably thought twice before donating to holocaust deniers again as they were tools for Iran's president.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

a. provide him with return airfares on Whiz air to Warsaw
b. arrange for hire of GPR equipment
c. provide an expert operator
d. provide him with two nights accommodation in an inexpensive but clean hotel
e. arrange transfer to Treblinka for collection of data.

See, here is LGR doing it again.

LGR hasn't got a clue which university he needs to contact that has control data on Polish soil, its acidity, current calcium levels etc etc. ( Probably the Agricultural University of Warsaw). LGR simply offers "an expert" with no clue as to cost.

LGR hasn't got a clue why he is suggesting a GPR scan although he knows the Treblinka monument has large concrete slabs that prevent GPR from working. That's why I asked LGR what his scan-grid would be and why LGR ignored my question.

LGR is a holocaust denier but will simply not contact his fellow holocaust denier, Richard Krege, who claims to have all the raw data from his GPR scan, because LGR know Krege was lying. In theory this is the cheapest option for LGR but...nope...he will insist an academic historian in the UK "transforms" into a "forensic archaeologist" knowing the historian will refuse on professional, ethical and commonsense grounds.

As I envisage it collection of data should take no more than a day.

That depends on the size of your scan grid. Can you show us your proposed grid or have you just made this up like Krege did?

 

[little grey rabbit]

LGR hasn't got a clue which university he needs to contact that has control data on Polish soil, its acidity, current calcium levels etc etc. ( Probably the Agricultural University of Warsaw). LGR simply offers "an expert" with no clue as to cost.

The best science is simple science. We don't really have any interest in calcium levels because all we looking for is major earth disturbance.

Since we know from aerial photos what areas were being used as fields in 1944, and what areas were enclosed by a camp (assuming the air photos have not had a little visit prior to release) - all we need to do is take scans of areas known not to have had mass graves and compare them with areas of the camp.

Of course, I am open to discussions regarding the methodology but since the issue is really quite straightforward, I don't anticipate any problems PROVIDED WE ARE DEALING WITH PEOPLE ACTING IN GOOD FAITH.

I have no problems if people also want to examine calcium content as well, but they do so on their own dime.

 

[little grey rabbit]

LGR is a holocaust denier but will simply not contact his fellow holocaust denier, Richard Krege, who claims to have all the raw data from his GPR scan, because LGR know Krege was lying.

Actually I have repeatedly contacted Richard Krege and the Adelaide Institute - even offering to buy their data, but received no reply.

I have no doubt that Krege did his scan and did it in the appropriate areas because there is video of it over at CODOH. A Hoaxster, Michael Mills, who is associated with axisforum has also seen it.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=94929

Of course we aren't sure how well documented Krege's data is - although we know he took it from Treblinka. Hence I am suggesting the involvement of a professional, and that data is properly documented and made publicly available in raw and in processed form.

In theory this is the cheapest option for LGR but...nope...he will insist an academic historian in the UK "transforms" into a "forensic archaeologist" knowing the historian will refuse on professional, ethical and commonsense grounds.

I hope all this helps clarify issues for "dance". The reason why there is no examination of such sites is Hoaxsters don't believe in them. End of story.

 

[dance]

Matthew Ellard - thanks for the background notes and the links.

The holocaust deniers' point of view, that they cling to in spite of the massive volume of existing evidence, is incomprehensible to me. I wanted insight and I believe I got it, though I still do not understand the motivation. It is hard for me to believe that antisemitism is the complete answer to their fanaticism, but maybe it is at the root of the problem.

As for Ahmadinejad, I leave to others any speculation as to how his mind works.

 

[little grey rabbit]

Matthew Ellard - thanks for the background notes and the links.

The holocaust deniers' point of view, that they cling to in spite of the massive volume of existing evidence, is incomprehensible to me. I wanted insight and I believe I got it, though I still do not understand the motivation. It is hard for me to believe that antisemitism is the complete answer to their fanaticism, but maybe it is at the root of the problem.

As for Ahmadinejad, I leave to others any speculation as to how his mind works.

LOL, notice how quickly dance dropped this "A scientific approach to the subject seems the most intelligent response to me"

Now he realises that Treblinka will not stand up to a scientific approach and probably can't even remember suggesting it in the first place!