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Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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Sextants are pretty good for determining the position of a ship, and even if Patric1000 will not accept that they work on land too you could still use them to determine the size of the oceans.

You could determine the position of a ship while it was in port, and then use a measuring tape to correct for distance to the pier. :rolleyes:
 
You didn't even attempt to answer my question.

I asked:

Unless they are saying the Apollo landings were faked, what is your point?

You can't hold them up as unimpeachable experts and then tell us they are lying about Apollo.

You then wrote:

Totally fake, patently fake. That is my point. And I gave a reason as to why they did this. They planted LRRRs on the moon to measure the distance across the oceans. The project I am sure was not limited to this, but that was one element we can be sure of now anyway.

I wasn't asking you if you thought Apollo was fake, I was asking how you can use people as experts if you also assert they are lying about it being fake.

And please, don't tell us what we can and cannot be "sure of" or what " has now been proven" or any other assertion.

It just makes you look like a petulant child.
 
This is not a matter of debate, but a simple fact.

What a pompous fool you are. Simply asserting "things" doesn't make them true.

I'm beginning to believe as others here do...that you are a child "playing" on his computer.

...and KNOW that I am laughing every time you post, and that I am amazed how you have demonstrated such ignorance without any embarrassment.
 
My coordinate analysis has proved Apollo bogus. Do tell RAF, how is it that the staff at Lick Observatory had the numbers 00 41 15 north 23 26 00 east over a week before NASA's own trajectory specialists had the numbers? NASA's own trajectory specialists didn't have those numbers until after analyzing the 16mm film of the launch from the lunar surface. This was well after the astronauts returned from their "journey to the moon".

From the NASA, 16 March 1970, Trajectory Analysis Report;

"In order to gauge the quality of the landing radar data, it was necessary to determine that the above trajectories did accurately represent the actual descent trajectory. This quality judgeinent vas based largely on the landing point conditions obtained from each trajectory. These landing sites obtained from each trajectory are summarized graphically i n Figure 7-30. Note that both the BET #3 and the Onboard hlSFN H-S estimates are very close to the 16mm photographic estimate (accepted as the best estimate)."

And from table 5-IV of the Apollo 11 Mission Report we do find the 16mm/photographic solution among the Eagle landing site coordinates provided, from page 5-15;

"photography 0.647 or c 00 41' 15", 23.505 or c 23 26' 00"

a) Following the Apollo 10 mission, a difference was noted (from the landmark tracking results) between the trajectory coordinate system and the coordinate system on the reference map. In order to reference tra- Jectory values to the l:100 000 scale Lunar Map ORB-II-6 (lO0), dated December 1967, correction factors of plus 2'25" in latitude and minus 4'17" in longitude must be applied to the trajectory values.

b) All latitude values are corrected for the estimated out-of-plane position error at powered descent initiation.

c) These coordinate values are referenced to the map and include the correction factors."


Of course the 16mm launch video wasn't analyzed until well after the astronauts returned. As we all recall, Donald Beattie was the NASA Headquarters Program Manager for Lunar Surface Experiments. Here again is what Donald Beattie had to say about the landing coordinate issue;

"The samples, which had arrived before the astronauts, were carefully opened in the LRL, inventoried, and briefly described. In the meantime we were monitoring the signals sent back by the passive seismic experiment and attempting to find the LRRR that the astronauts had left behind. This latter operation was not as easy as we expected, since the exact location of the landing site was not immediately known. Mike Collins had attempted unsuccessfully to locate the LM from orbit using the command module sextant. After analyzing the flight data and the returned photographs, we passed our best estimate to the LRRR PIs, and the LRRR was found on August 1, 1969, by the Lick Observatory in California.

Donald A. Beattie. Taking Science to the Moon: Lunar Experiments and the Apollo Program (ebook Locations 2911-2915).

You would have thought RAF, after they had given those EXACT coordinates to Joseph Wampler in San Jose at Lick Observatory, they would have been thoughtful enough to give Michael Collins a jungle up in his "spaceship". Not to mention having been thoughtful enough to walk down a console or two to chat with Flight Dynamics Officer, H. David Reed, and give him the coordinates they had given to Wampler as well. Here's Reed, capitals mine for emphasis;

"After Apollo XI landed, as the World celebrated and sipped champagne, I slept in preparation for my shift prior to lunar launch. I would work with SELECT and DYNAMICS to get all the relative geometry down and work out the correct ignition time for return to the CSM. PIECE OF CAKE REALLY. ALL WE NEEDED WERE LANDING COORDINATES AND A SOLID EPHEMERIS ON THE CSM. I sat down at the console for that prelaunch shift and was debriefed bythe previous team to complete hand-off. I probably had my second cup of coffee by then and got on the loop to SELECT to get the best landing site. I remember asking SELECT what he had for landing site coordinates. I’ll never forget his answer when he said, “take your pick FIDO!” I also remember not reacting too positively to his offer. He explained that we had five different sites. He said “we have MSFN(tracking radars), PNGS (primary LM guidance computer), AGS(backup LM guidance computer), the targeted landing site and, oh yes, the geologist have determined yet another site based upon the crew’s description of the landscape and correlating that with orbiter photos”. No two of these were even close to each other. "

Maurice Kennedy; Charles Deiterich III; William Stoval; William Boone III; Glynn S. Lunney; H. David Reed; Jerry C. Bostick (2011-05-13). From The Trench of Mission Control to the Craters of The Moon (ebook Locations 5634-5650).

Again, Joseph Wampler wrote to me and gave me permission to share the following, a quote from professor Wampler answering my question as to whether he was really given those EXACT coordinates that evening(07/20/1969);

"I thought that NASA said 00 41 50, not 00 41 15, and so at first I aimed the telescope at the wrong position."

So RAF, Joseph Wampler knew what Michael Collins wanted to know and did not, the EXACT location of the Eagle. Joseph Wampler knew what the Flight Dynamics Officer charged with calculating the Eagle's launch solution, H. David Reed, wanted to know and did not, the LM's EXACT landing coordinates.

So in four months time I have shown the Apollo 11 Mission Telemetry Data to be fraudulent. Nobody has done that in 42 years and you don't think that is very good?

PS, love my day job, but am good at this too, don't you think?!

Masturbating in public is generally frowned upon.
 
Hi. I've been away for a week, and I see nothing's progressed in Patrick's mission to prove a hoax.

I was amused to see this:
I did not make up the Joe Wampler quote nomuse. He wrote to me and said, and I quote;


"Unfortunately, I misunderstood the lander's coordinates which were relayed by telephone and not by a printed medium, such as by fax.** I thought that NASA said 00 41 50, not 00 41 15, and so at first I aimed the telescope at the wrong position."


So we know for a fact there was foreknowledge of the Tranquility Base coordinates and Apollo 11 fraud.

Patrick, your claim that these words were written to you by Prof Wampler (and not merely constructed by you after reading the first couple of Google hits on his name) does not prove foreknowledge of anything. And if you imagined it did, why didn't you ask him about that point directly?

Exactly when does he say he was given these coordinates?
 
Sextants are pretty good for determining the position of a ship, and even if Patric1000 will not accept that they work on land too you could still use them to determine the size of the oceans.

You could determine the position of a ship while it was in port, and then use a measuring tape to correct for distance to the pier. :rolleyes:

Quite right. I have used a sextant quite a few times for 'old times sake'. Not as accurate as a GPS but it's fun to see how close you can shoot your position and compare it to the GPS. In a dead calm on a clear day it can be remarkably accurate.
 
Quite right. I have used a sextant quite a few times for 'old times sake'. Not as accurate as a GPS but it's fun to see how close you can shoot your position and compare it to the GPS. In a dead calm on a clear day it can be remarkably accurate.
I have tried it once with a very enthusiastic 1.officer, as I recall it my position were within a few hundred meters of the GPS one. :)
 
Patrick...you haven't commented on the new landing site images that will be released on Tuesday.

How will you "explain away" those images?...will you just "cry" fake?, or will you have the "balls" to admit you are wrong?
 
I AM CALLING COLLINS A LIAR!

If you're so sure of that, then why not approach Collins and express that ignorant opinion.

Of course don't be surprised if he responds with a fist to your face...what I like to call The Aldrin "solution". :)

...or better yet...we get all the surviving Moon walkers together, in a line. You can proceed down that line and get your ass kicked.

Fun for all.
 
Totally fake, patently fake. That is my point. And I gave a reason as to why they did this. They planted LRRRs on the moon to measure the distance across the oceans. The project I am sure was not limited to this, but that was one element we can be sure of now anyway.

Are you trying to say that; in 1969, with hundreds of flights per day between the US, Europe, and Asia, we didn’t know the distance across the oceans?
 
What's the story with measuring the oceans by way of lunar ranging?

What's the story with measuring the oceans by way of lunar ranging?

Well, it turns out that the rationale has to do with the light diverting properties of the atmosphere. This is from the book, Parallax, The Race to Measure the Cosmos, author; Alan W. Hershfeld, from pages 275 and 276;

"The greatest hindrance to ground-based parallax measurement is the Earth's atmosphere. Passing through the ocean of air molecules that envelops our planet, photons from a distant star scatter like marbles falling through a Pachinko game. By the time they arrive at the telescope, they have been so buffeted from their original paths that the starry image they form in the eye or on the photographic plate is smeared out."

Laser light is very coherent and so would not be scattered to the same extent that non monochromatic light is. However, the paths of laser beams would be affected. Laser beams are indeed bent as they pass through our atmosphere, and the triangle so formed is consequently, untrue. The bigger the triangle, the greater the distance that the light travels in an atmosphere free environment, in this case, cislunar space, the less this bending impacts our measurement of a transoceanic distance. And so in this way, ranging the moon gives us a "more true triangle" and a better ocean measurement than would ranging a single satellite nearby in low Earth orbit.. In the case of the low earth orbiting satellite, the laser beams doing the ranging pass the majority of their journey through the atmosphere which bends their paths. Using the moon as the "satellite base" for ranging in this way gives a more accurate measurement.

Hence, the selection of Mother Earth's closest luminary as the Apollo Program's "satellite of choice" for ranging to measure the distances across our great oceans.
 
Slow moon

Also, the moon is a much more stable and slow moving target. The moon can be ranged under the right circumstances with the telescope beam passing more directly under it. The straighter the shot, the better the measurement. Low earth orbit satellites are moving at 15,000 miles an hour. That is a fast target to "hit" with a 1960 vintage Lick Observatory scope.
 
Patrick...you haven't commented on the new landing site images that will be released on Tuesday.

How will you "explain away" those images?...will you just "cry" fake?, or will you have the "balls" to admit you are wrong?

He probably won't address them at all. Pages ago I tried to get him to do just this, regarding images of the Apollo 17 landing site for which the "chain of custody" consisted of myself, a coworker, and the LRO team. He didn't have the guts to call any of us liars, but I wonder if he'll change his tune when these higher-resolution images are released... how about it, "Patrick?" Am I just a shill? Is my coworker a liar? How about the LRO team?
 
Simultaneous ranging

Another point.

If a satellite passes over Lick Observatory, it is hardly possible for someone to simultaneously range it from Japan if the satellite's orbit is low. The Japanese laser could not "see" the low flying satellite from such a, relative to Lick Observatory, westerly position. But if the moon is settled nicely over the Pacific ocean, one could range the moon from both banks and get a good measurement of the Pacific's distance.
 
The numbers on low orbit ranging

From 200 miles up, one can see and be seen from 1200 miles away. As such, a satellite flying at 200 miles above the earth would allow for at most a distance ranging of 2400 miles. Not nearly good enough to range one of our great oceans. We need a tall, distant, steady and slow target for our ranging to measure our oceans.
 
Satellite height and ranging, The MOON, the only way to go!

Satellite height and ranging.

If a satellite is 303 miles up, it can see and be seen for about 1,500 miles in either direction, 3,000 miles total, roughly the breadth of the Atlantic Ocean at its broadest, between the USA and North Africa.

The Pacific is much bigger, roughly 11,000 miles across where it is widest east to west at the equator. Near the International Dateline the Pacific is roughly 9,500 miles north to south. To see and be seen roughly 5,500 miles in either direction, equivalent to being able to range the Pacific Ocean, a satellite needs to be 18,900 miles above the surface of the Earth.

So by running through all of these considerations, especially as regards the Mighty Pacific, we are able to determine that the only way to satellite range and measure the transPacific breadth was by planting an LRRR on the moon. We couldn't do a satellite at 19,000 miles.
The moon was obviously the only way to go.
 
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