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The sad case of Niels Harrit

Sunstealer doesn't have to do anything. He can continue shouting anonymously from the sidelines that he's "debunked" a published paper, and he can continue to be ignored everywhere but here. He can continue posting here as if he has some clue of what Harrit is talking about, with his few hangers-on here giving him the benefit of the doubt. The world of published findings will continue on without him, and Harrit's paper will stand uncontested. Works for me. No one's going to come and read the threads here. I will continue, when I can, informing people that Sunstealer has debunked nothing.
 
Are you sure? I've never seen any papers like that before. Do you consider yourself a "pioneer"?


:rolleyes:
pioneer? pfffft absolutely! I mean how many papers in peer reviewed journals have you seen purporting to show the world is flat? :eye-poppi :p
 
pioneer? pfffft absolutely! I mean how many papers in peer reviewed journals have you seen purporting to show the world is flat? :eye-poppi :p

There's no doubt that you haven't debunked Harrit's paper Sunstealer. Neither has anybody else.

The peer reviewed paper that said that unreacted nanothermite was found in much of the WTC dust stands as the last word on the subject and all this debunker wailing and gnashing of teeth will not change that.
 
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There's no doubt that you haven't debunked Harrit's paper Sunstealer. Neither has anybody else.

The peer reviewed paper that said that unreacted nanothermite was found in much of the WTC dust stands as the last word on the subject and all this debunker wailing and gnashing of teeth will not change that.

After 2.5 years, no scientist at all has used Harrit e.al. for a citation in any proper journal article, except as an example for a sociological phenomenon.

There is no chemist in the world who cares
There is no physicist in the world* who cares
There is no engineer in the world* who cares
There is no material scientist in the world* who cares
There is no forensic scientist in the world who cares
There is no military researcher in the world who cares
There is no fire scientist in the world who cares




*) Outside a very closed circle of die-hard truthers
 
911 kooks are their own worst enemy. Like most of their pathetic tactics, their boasting about this joke scam of a paper, doesn't help them one bit, yet they persist in doing it.
 
Sunstealer doesn't have to do anything. He can continue shouting anonymously from the sidelines that he's "debunked" a published paper, and he can continue to be ignored everywhere but here. He can continue posting here as if he has some clue of what Harrit is talking about, with his few hangers-on here giving him the benefit of the doubt. The world of published findings will continue on without him, and Harrit's paper will stand uncontested. Works for me. No one's going to come and read the threads here. I will continue, when I can, informing people that Sunstealer has debunked nothing.
Nope, I don't have to do anything at all. You're correct. I will be ignored by the scientific community as much as Jones and Harrit are. I've no problem with that.

However, I do have a clue about what Harrit et al are "talking" about. That's why I'm able to debunk the paper. It's not hard to do. You, nor anyone in the truth movement have been able to counter any of my arguments. Infact, anyone with sufficient experience debunks it too. Just look at Prof Pistorius in the BBC video, his conclusion is it's paint. Did he read JREF or come to his own conclusion? Is he in on it too?

Funnily enough my "shouting from the sidelines" has fed back to Jones who, in one of his talks, tries to refute my position; that the hexagonal platelets are kaolin, by misrepresenting my point and mixing up EDX spectra. That makes me smile. Why would Jones bother with trying to refute what I say if their paper stood alone in the "world of published findings" uncontested?

I know the science stuff baffles you, just as the words "onto and "into" and "essentially" baffle you, that's why you don't understand the data in the paper. And that's why you can't make a judgement either way. So instead you batten down the hatches and ignore the criticism of the paper that is backed up with analysis of truther's own data and external sources and simply spout your nonsense to all and sundry. You don't have the faculty to actually read the rebuttals or understand them.

The world of published findings seems to merrily turn even though Harrit et al published their garbage in the refuge dump that is Bentham. You are massively over-inflating it's importance, which isn't surprising, as truthers seem to think the world revolves around their sad theories. You all have an over-inflated sense of importance. No one takes you or the Harrit paper seriously - this forum is merely an exercise. You only exist in cyberspace. Turn off the internet and you disappear. No one really cares for your nonsense in the real world. You have achieved the square root of Felicity Arkwright. And will continue to do so for eternity.
 
*Facepalm*
Legitimate rebuttals to published findings don't always take the form of peer reviewed papers written specifically to counter a given study. As a matter of fact, I'm not certain any researcher ever sets out with the intent of doing so from the very beginning; the few examples I see of peer reviewed papers rebutting a prior study are original studies that, after having been undertaken, happened to have been shown to contradict prior works (those studies are published in order to add to the accumulation of knowledge and allow metastudies to really determine the state of knowledge). Legitimate rebuttals are not restricted to peer review at all. One of the other entirely accepted (emphasis: Accepted i.e. already acknowledged as legitimate) methods of critique are specifically what Sunstealer did: Compose a work demonstrating a study's inherent flaws and use the data provided to reinterpret the authors' conclusions.

You want an example of a study being refuted without a direct, refereed rebuttal paper being published? Look at the Andrew Wakefield debacle. Were any of the critiques published peer-reviewed studies conducted in direct rebuttal? No; they were they the cumulation of critiques gathered in various venues that added up to the field rejecting the work. Remember: The Lancet ended up acknowledging the refutations. The medical community rejects it. But no refereed paper ever was written for the purpose of direct refutation. Rather, it failed in the face of already existent evidence.

Just like the Bentham paper.

The point is that when people like Steven Jones were challenged to publish in legit scientific venues (oh, how I rue forgetting to use the word "legitimate" back in 2006 when I was one of the people saying this!) it's because he was the one claiming he conducted experiments and made discoveries. Because he was a scientist, he was challenged to raise the level of discourse by attempting validation via refereed publication. But no other truthers were following commonly accepted academic practices at the time.

And now that they have an ersatz paper to push, suddenly they're all about peer review. But for rebuttals. Once again, they're demonstrating an ignorance of standard academic practices.

The people here calling on Sunstealer to publish his findings are ignorant of academic practice. The only oddity about his critique is that he did not address it to Bentham's letters to the Editor directly, and after Ryan Mackey's experience with that:
... is there any wonder that he didn't try?

----

One last thing: When Jones was challenged to take his claims to peer review, there was also an accompanying critique of the actual "findings". Why am I not surprised that on the truther side there's only the call, incorrect as it is, to go to publication? Doesn't it say something that they don't even try to take on the argument itself? To me, that says a lot.
 
Nope, I don't have to do anything at all. You're correct. I will be ignored by the scientific community as much as Jones and Harrit are. I've no problem with that.

However, I do have a clue about what Harrit et al are "talking" about. That's why I'm able to debunk the paper. It's not hard to do. You, nor anyone in the truth movement have been able to counter any of my arguments. Infact, anyone with sufficient experience debunks it too. Just look at Prof Pistorius in the BBC video, his conclusion is it's paint. Did he read JREF or come to his own conclusion? Is he in on it too?

Funnily enough my "shouting from the sidelines" has fed back to Jones who, in one of his talks, tries to refute my position; that the hexagonal platelets are kaolin, by misrepresenting my point and mixing up EDX spectra. That makes me smile. Why would Jones bother with trying to refute what I say if their paper stood alone in the "world of published findings" uncontested?

I know the science stuff baffles you, just as the words "onto and "into" and "essentially" baffle you, that's why you don't understand the data in the paper. And that's why you can't make a judgement either way. So instead you batten down the hatches and ignore the criticism of the paper that is backed up with analysis of truther's own data and external sources and simply spout your nonsense to all and sundry. You don't have the faculty to actually read the rebuttals or understand them.

The world of published findings seems to merrily turn even though Harrit et al published their garbage in the refuge dump that is Bentham. You are massively over-inflating it's importance, which isn't surprising, as truthers seem to think the world revolves around their sad theories. You all have an over-inflated sense of importance. No one takes you or the Harrit paper seriously - this forum is merely an exercise. You only exist in cyberspace. Turn off the internet and you disappear. No one really cares for your nonsense in the real world. You have achieved the square root of Felicity Arkwright. And will continue to do so for eternity.

Square root of Felicity Arkwright... ROFLMAO!!!
rofl.gif
 
After 2.5 years, no scientist at all has used Harrit e.al. for a citation in any proper journal article, except as an example for a sociological phenomenon.

There is no chemist in the world who cares
There is no physicist in the world* who cares
There is no engineer in the world* who cares
There is no material scientist in the world* who cares
There is no forensic scientist in the world who cares
There is no military researcher in the world who cares
There is no fire scientist in the world who cares




*) Outside a very closed circle of die-hard truthers

When you say that none of these scientists 'care' Oystein do you mean that they are aware of the conspiracy but just do not care ? If not, in what other context are you using the word 'care' here.'

Give us a sentence or two with examples of the usage you mean.
 
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Free fall for 2.5 seconds in WTC 7 was confirmed. You can't explain free fall without the building's resistance being removed completely in some way. I'm sorry you don't understand this. It seems elementary for just about anyone outside of JREF.

Pity for you its not actually true......
 
Nope, I don't have to do anything at all. You're correct. I will be ignored by the scientific community as much as Jones and Harrit are. I've no problem with that.

However, I do have a clue about what Harrit et al are "talking" about. That's why I'm able to debunk the paper. It's not hard to do. You, nor anyone in the truth movement have been able to counter any of my arguments.

And where would they have read your arguments? You're lucky anyone did.

Debunking something means to refute a claim with evidence that you can produce, not merely present your own theory or conjecture. What I gather from the threads that exist here on the subject, and that continue (even though you insist it's been "debunked"), is that you've managed to raise some questions only. Raising questions about something is not debunking something. Bedunkers really need to wrap their minds around this. From what I'm discovering, most of what you folks claim is "debunked" is not.

Furthermore, as far as published technical literature on 9/11 problems goes, you folks don't officially exist, except as a kind of composite, anonymous grouping of internet-dwelling naysayers with amateur or dubious credentials, and often preposterous claims. If you're okay with that, who am I to argue, but you can rest assured, nobody's listening.
 
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And where would they have read your arguments? You're lucky anyone did.

Debunking something means to refute a claim with evidence that you can produce, not merely present your own theory or conjecture. What I gather from the threads that exist here on the subject, and that continue (even though you insist it's been "debunked"), is that you've managed to raise some questions only. Raising questions about something is not debunking something. Bedunkers really need to wrap their minds around this. From what I'm discovering, most of what you folks claim is "debunked" is not.

Furthermore, as far as published technical literature on 9/11 problems goes, you folks don't officially exist, except as a kind of composite, anonymous grouping of internet-dwelling naysayers with amateur or dubious credentials, and often preposterous claims. If you're okay with that, who am I to argue, but you can rest assured, nobody's listening.
http://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/2007truthmovementpoll

72. Please rank these "debunkers" according to how effective their opposition to the TM has been, most effective to least

1) debunking911.com 21%
2) Popular Mechanics book & article 11%
3) JREF/Mark Roberts 30%
4) Screw Loose Change Blog 17%
5) 911myths.com 20%
6) Other: Nist FAQ, 1%
 
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The peer reviewed paper that said that unreacted nanothermite was found in much of the WTC dust stands as the last word on the subject and all this debunker wailing and gnashing of teeth will not change that.

But the stupid SOB has not proven that it is unreacted thermite, or that it can produce the results that the thermite-sniffers think it can produce.

The silly imature twits can't even prove that it is not paint.
 
You have achieved the square root of Felicity Arkwright. And will continue to do so for eternity.
WTF? Uncalled for, dude. This old hippy poet thinks that SFA has some sort of talent. Comparing that lot in any way to twoofers is just palin cruel to some pretty decent musicians.
 
But the stupid SOB has not proven that it is unreacted thermite, or that it can produce the results that the thermite-sniffers think it can produce.

The silly imature twits can't even prove that it is not paint.

They are the ones with the peer reviewed paper Sarge. It's up to you guys to prove that the chips are not nanothermite. You can only do that by producing an official challenge to the conclusions of the two-year study. The burden of proof is on you

Whining on an internet forum about it is not worth a row of beans..
 
They are the ones with the peer reviewed paper Sarge. It's up to you guys to prove that the chips are not nanothermite. You can only do that by producing an official challenge to the conclusions of the two-year study. The burden of proof is on you.

Vanity press is not peer-reviewed. They are still immature little boys with delusions of manhood.
 
And where would they have read your arguments? You're lucky anyone did.

Debunking something means to refute a claim with evidence that you can produce, not merely present your own theory or conjecture. What I gather from the threads that exist here on the subject, and that continue (even though you insist it's been "debunked"), is that you've managed to raise some questions only. Raising questions about something is not debunking something. Bedunkers really need to wrap their minds around this. From what I'm discovering, most of what you folks claim is "debunked" is not.

Furthermore, as far as published technical literature on 9/11 problems goes, you folks don't officially exist, except as a kind of composite, anonymous grouping of internet-dwelling naysayers with amateur or dubious credentials, and often preposterous claims. If you're okay with that, who am I to argue, but you can rest assured, nobody's listening.
Well I know they read comments somewhere but most likely not here because they misrepresent the point. I've already produced all the evidence which was referenced and linked to in the original threads on the papers. Just because you don't have the knowledge to follow those points when even a schoolchild can recognise shapes and patterns when pointed out isn't my problem. No truther has ever managed to refute my rebuttals. Perhaps you'd like to give it ago in the relevant thread. I need a laugh.

Raising questions about something is not debunking something
:i: Perhaps you may like to apply that to truthers JAQing off which is all you do. I've not raised questions I've shown conclusively with data that the chips are paint. Others have helped identify that paint.

Perhaps you'd care to peruse this article regarding peer review and rebuttals. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14768574

extracts

Wolfgang Wagner, editor of Remote Sensing journal, says he agrees with their criticisms and is stepping down.

"Peer-reviewed journals are a pillar of modern science," he writes in a resignation note published in Remote Sensing.

"Their aim is to achieve highest scientific standards by carrying out a rigorous peer review that is, as a minimum requirement, supposed to be able to identify fundamental methodological errors or false claims"
"Unfortunately, as many climate researchers and engaged observers of the climate change debate pointed out in various internet discussion fora, the paper by Spencer and Braswell... is most likely problematic in both aspects and should therefore not have been published.

Bentham certainly doesn't pass the first two paragraphs. It's editor resigned for similar reasons; published a paper that wasn't reviewed or reviewed properly.

Secondly the mistakes where pointed out in internet forums just as we've done here. Which forum is most associated with the discussion of 9/11? Well it's JREF. Just look at it's effect in the above poll. Have you been quoted in Skeptical Inquirer magazine? No you haven't but I have as have other debunkers on this forum. Truther forums are quiet in comparison. You have to come to us to get noticed. lol.

They also commented on the fact that the paper was not published in a journal that routinely deals with climate change. Remote Sensing's core topic is methods for monitoring aspects of the Earth from space.

Publishing in "off-topic" journals is generally frowned on in scientific circles, partly because editors may lack the specialist knowledge and contacts needed to run a thorough peer review process.

Is Bentham a specialist materials journal? Nope, it's pay to publish and has been hoodwinked with a hoax paper. No peer review. So why did Harrit et al chose this crappy backwater of a journal to publish in when to do so is frowned upon in scientific circles? I'll tell you why, they don't want their paper scrutinised by people with experience in the field. It would be torn to shreds. Yet you and your truther buddies cling to it like a drowning man clutches at straw. It's rather funny. If you really think this abomination of a paper has merit then tout it round the universities, show who's referenced this great work of modern science! No one of any note has because it's worthless.

"Those who recognise that their ideas are weak but seek to get them into the literature by finding weaknesses in the peer review system are taking a thoroughly disreputable approach," he said.
Yes I agree and it's exactly what Harrit et al did. Therefore they are disreputable. Why are you backing disreputable people? I thought you want the truth, so why are truthers such as Jones and Harrit being so damn sneaky in the way they publish? Oh that's right, their ideas are weak. It's funny to watch truthers desperately scrabbling around trying to back them when any reasonable person can see the charade.
 
WTF? Uncalled for, dude. This old hippy poet thinks that SFA has some sort of talent. Comparing that lot in any way to twoofers is just palin cruel to some pretty decent musicians.
rofl. Lefty - I didn't know there was a band called SFA. In Britain it's a well known euphemism. No connection with the band was intended.
 

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