Merged Libya: People's Revolution / Criminal Imperialism?

[RandFan]

And maybe your thoughts on the little details that puts it all together into a logically coherent narrative. If you're waiting for more information, it may never come. We have to work with what there is to explain (best guess) how five charred bodies were found in that base on Feb 21.

Same challenge to others - anyone can answer it, if they feel up to it.

Or are we to leap around accusation-to-accusation, avoiding specifics as much as possible, like Funk de Fino, Pardalis, Skeptic, Virus, etc?

It's a fair question. At the moment I don't have enough information. I appreciate your providing details.

Let me put my sentiments this way. I followed the South African struggle with Mandela, Biko, etc. At the time before the elections and reconciliation I worked with a guy who was White and from South Africa. He was always fixated on the atrocities of the rebels. He would point out the many necklaces performed by the rebels. A necklace is when you place a tire around the victims neck and set the tire on fire. He wanted me to be on the side of the Botha govt because of the many atrocities committed by the Rebels. It was his contention that the atrocities negated any moral high ground they had.

To me this atrocity strikes me the same way. If it happened as you said it still is not sufficient reason for me to judge all the rebels anymore than the crimes committed by the French revolutionists would cause me to make a categorical determination about them.

I'm happy to judge individual acts as immoral. The problem is that I don't then know what to do with that information. And I don't as yet have enough information to even do that.

 

[little grey rabbit]

It's a fair question. At the moment I don't have enough information. I appreciate your providing details.

Let me put my sentiments this way. I followed the South African struggle with Mandela, Biko, etc. At the time before the elections and reconciliation I worked with a guy who was White and from South Africa. He was always fixated on the atrocities of the rebels. He would point out the many necklaces performed by the rebels. A necklace is when you place a tire around the victims neck and set the tire on fire. He wanted me to be on the side of the Botha govt because of the many atrocities committed by the Rebels. It was his contention that the atrocities negated any moral high ground they had.

To me this atrocity strikes me the same way. If it happened as you said it still is not sufficient reason for me to judge all the rebels anymore than the crimes committed by the French revolutionists would cause me to make a categorical determination about them.

I'm happy to judge individual acts as immoral. The problem is that I don't then know what to do with that information. And I don't as yet have enough information to even do that.

This begs a very obvious question. Nelson Mandela was in prison for 25 years (IIRC)

Do you think NATO should have undertaken a bombing campaign to set him free and give Black Africans the vote? Had they in fact undertaken such a bombing campaign would the net result have been positive or negative?

Do you think the ANC was hopelessly naive to (eventually) insist on a mainly non-violent struggle?

BTW, while it is true that necklacing was widespread - no one suggests that the ANC came to power due to it - usually necklacing was a result of faction fights in the opposition under the National Party's divide and rule approach.

ETA: We have already run through a brief precis French revolution and I believe we reached an agreement that fascinating as it is to read about, it was absolute disaster for France and the French people. So why should we not judge the French revolutionaries harshly for their revolutionary violence, when the great mass of the French people reaped such a bitter harvast from it?

 

[AcesHigh]

So you would have preferred 40 more years of dictatorship. Hey, as long as they're on the "human development" chart, there's no problem eh?

Good to know.

well, actually, yes. Its much more important for the people of a country to have good HDI than freedom.

its easy to say the opposite when you are in the US or Canada, countries on the top of the HDI index.

from best to worst: freedom and high HDI > high HDI and no freedom > freedom and bad HDI > no freedom and bad HDI

 

[RandFan]

Do you think NATO should have undertaken a bombing campaign to set him free and give Black Africans the vote?

Perhaps. More importantly if the Black South Africans had rebelled the way the Libyans did and the White South Africans threatened to kill the Blacks. ABSOLUTELY!

Do you think the ANC was hopelessly naive to (eventually) insist on a mainly non-violent struggle?

No, it's unfortunate that Che, Fidel and all of the other groups you and I listed didn't do likewise. The point is that I cannot be morally consistent and pick and choose to forgive atrocity in some instances and condemn it in others. I condemn it all but I understand the will of those oppressed.

BTW, while it is true that necklacing was widespread - no one suggests that the ANC came to power due to it - usually necklacing was a result of faction fights in the opposition under the National Party's divide and rule approach.

It's not relevant. Either atrocity is a means to condemn an entire group or it is not.

ETA: We have already run through a brief precis French revolution and I believe we reached an agreement that fascinating as it is to read about, it was absolute disaster for France and the French people. So why should we not judge the French revolutionaries harshly for their revolutionary violence, when the great mass of the French people reaped such a bitter harvast from it?

Many if not most revolutions were the same. I judge harshly all violence. Che was a violent man yet is often seen as a hero. I suspect for many if not most, one's heroes and villains has more to do with ideology than morality.

I don't see the world that way.

 

[RandFan]

well, actually, yes. Its much more important for the people of a country to have good HDI than freedom.

I can't tell anyone else that it's okay if they don't have freedom. That's not for me to decide. In fact, IMO, it's supremely arrogant and a false choice. There's no evidence that overthrowing one's dictator means less HDI.

 

[Toke]

I can't tell anyone else that it's okay if they don't have freedom. That's not for me to decide. In fact, IMO, it's supremely arrogant and a false choice. There's no evidence that overthrowing one's dictator means less HDI.

Sometimes it can be hard to tell a corrupt democracy from a dictatorship.

The Spanish avoided the cost of a revolution by waiting for Franco to die from old age. (That approach would/will likely not work elsewhere.)

This is a chance for the Libyans to get a new and democratic government. Downside is that it is a bloody and brutalising way that may continue as a civil war.

The viagra lie is still bugging me, it kind of cast doubt on the whole humanitarian aspect.

 

[JihadJane]

The viagra lie is still bugging me, it kind of cast doubt on the whole humanitarian aspect.

Let it bug you some more and reality may dawn!

 

[timhau]

The Spanish avoided the cost of a revolution by waiting for Franco to die from old age.

... and hoping he'll stay that way. So far, it has worked.

(That approach would/will likely not work elsewhere.)

It only works if there is no fight for succession and the sole heir apparent is democratically inclined. I'm not sure if either of these holds true for Libya.

 

[Caustic Logic]

It's a fair question.
...
If it happened as you said it still is not sufficient reason for me to judge ...
I'm happy to judge individual acts as immoral. The problem is that ... I don't as yet have enough information to even do that.

Okay, no solid opinion what makes most sense there. I guess that it seems obvious is in my head. The middle part was interesting too, but I think LGR nailed it better. And considering the racist element to rebel atrocities from February until now, South African comparisons are almost perverse, IMO.

I can't tell anyone else that it's okay if they don't have freedom. That's not for me to decide.

Not even when they come out in the millions begging you to spare them your freedom? No, apparently not.

In fact, IMO, it's supremely arrogant and a false choice. There's no evidence that overthrowing one's dictator means less HDI.

Not as a general rule maybe. But I bet you it'll happen here.

well, actually, yes. Its much more important for the people of a country to have good HDI than freedom.

its easy to say the opposite when you are in the US or Canada, countries on the top of the HDI index.

from best to worst: freedom and high HDI > high HDI and no freedom > freedom and bad HDI > no freedom and bad HDI

Totally agreed. "It's easy to say" is key. Easier yet when all hate Gaddafi sooooo much. No way can we let a chance pass, so long as the people there (the few with guns talking to al Jazeera) also all want it. Maybe this will turn out for the better for Libya's people, but it'll be on accident if so.

This is a chance for the Libyans to get a new and democratic government. Downside is that it is a bloody and brutalising way that may continue as a civil war.

The viagra lie is still bugging me, it kind of cast doubt on the whole humanitarian aspect.

Oh that's just the tip of the iceberg. They (rebels and NATO leaders) made up all kinds of stories that weren't true. Bombing neighborhoods, African mercenaries, sniping children, killing their own soldiers for refusing to shoot innocents ... the one under question, what do you think? Post #182 if you didn't see it yet. Who are these five bodies most likely to be? Chadian workers/migrants or mutinous soldiers, given the available evidence? And what does that say about recent claims the 50 skeletons in the shed are either mutinous soldiers or rebel symps again burnt to death by the regime?

Another bad sign:
I can confirm LGR that the piles of bodies are still smoking, five days after the alleged incident so many people witnessed on the 23rd. See Telegraph video, 0:28-0:32. After the 23rd, rebels were in charge there, right?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5SBvHacJgY
And, duh. Another survivor, who was there for the massacre, saw it all, was in it, escaped, was shot in the side doing so, and showed the months-old looking scar to same camera, Aug 28. (see 0:50) Smoke still rising, but wounds all healed, in five days. Hmmmm....

Problem is, we ARE idiots, collectively anyway.

 

[RandFan]

Not even when they come out in the millions begging you to spare them your freedom? No, apparently not.

You missed the point entirely. It's not for me to tell them. It's their choice not mine. Who came out in the millions begging to be spared freedom? No revolution is supported by everyone. There will always be dissenters. But if there is a minority that wants freedom the majority doesn't have the right to take it from them. Most importantly, you haven't resolved the problem of your false choice.

Not as a general rule maybe. But I bet you it'll happen here.

Not a clue. Sorry. BTW: Were is "here"?

 

[trustbutverify]

Sometimes it can be hard to tell a corrupt democracy from a dictatorship.

The Spanish avoided the cost of a revolution by waiting for Franco to die from old age. (That approach would/will likely not work elsewhere.)

This is a chance for the Libyans to get a new and democratic government. Downside is that it is a bloody and brutalising way that may continue as a civil war.

The viagra lie is still bugging me, it kind of cast doubt on the whole humanitarian aspect.

What lie?

 

[trustbutverify]

Let it bug you some more and reality may dawn!

9/11 inside job?

 

[Toke]

What lie?

This one.

But several diplomats said Rice provided no evidence for the Viagra allegation, which they said was made in an attempt to persuade doubters the conflict in Libya was not just a standard civil war but a much nastier fight in which Gadhafi is not afraid to order his troops to commit heinous acts.

 

[Caustic Logic]

You missed the point entirely. It's not for me to tell them. It's their choice not mine. Who came out in the millions begging to be spared freedom?

Libyans with green flags. Million plus, if not millions, representing an unknown number of others. Sounds like a possible minority, actually, wanting continued freedom from the West's imperial grasp. And perhaps the FFs do represent the majority, as people here presume. And as you say

if there is a minority that wants freedom the majority doesn't have the right to take it from them.

But we did, with massive force. I think well over 10,000 loyal soldiers squished.

That was pretty tricky of me, huh?

Not a clue. Sorry. BTW: Were is "here"?

The case under examination, Libya. I predict Idiocracy - the Great Man-made River will be privatized and filled with Brawndo.

@Toke: But you can't PROVE it's a lie! It's not rational to call it a lie just because it's ridiculous! Maybe FFs did find un-burnt boxes of ED pills, thousands of them, inside NATO bombed tanks, proving the soldiers planned to rape everyone once they got to Benghazi.

On the burnt bodies, Feb and Aug batches, no one's saying much. Stunned? Unable to even say "wow, that is pretty troubling." Too troubling to comprehend clearly? Rebuttals?

 

[RandFan]

Libyans with green flags. Million plus, if not millions, representing an unknown number of others.

Source?

Sounds like a possible minority, actually, wanting continued freedom from the West's imperial grasp. And perhaps the FFs do represent the majority, as people here presume. And as you say

The West's grasp?

But we did, with massive force. I think well over 10,000 loyal soldiers squished.

Gaddafi was a dictator. The people rose up against him. The people went to the streets.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Source?

Various. There are videos of some of the masses around. Happened July 1 in Tripoli and other cities. You didn't know about it?

The West's grasp?

Yeah. It's a thing they (loyalist/brainwashed/whatever citizens) perceive as a threat, right or wrong. It attacked Iraq to take over, they believed, and had targetted their country next. It's been said Gaddafi's support among those in Tripoli and much of the west was at 95%once the war started. No clear studies have been done. Bush was there for a bit after 9/11, and again, they were under attack. One lady put it this way:

Tripoli - One of the jokes heard at this week’s massive pro-government Friday post prayer rally at Green Square (in most of the other Arab countries Friday’s are days of rage against the government du jour but in Libya Friday prayers are followed by massive pro-Qadaffi rallies attended two weeks ago by close to 65% of Tripoli’s population) is about how each morning Libya’s leader, following early morning Fajr prayers dons his formal uniform, complete with those huge epaulets, and salutes the small NATO flag he tapes to his bathroom mirror as he moves from place to place dodging NATO drones and assassins.
“Our leader does this”, one young lady informed me first with a wide smile and then growing serious, “because the NATO bombing of Libyan civilians, which the US/NATO axis claims Qaddafi is doing, has caused his popularity to skyrocket among our proud and nationalist tribal people. I am one example of this.
Yes, of course we can use some new blood and long overdue reform in our government. Which country cannot? But first we must defeat the NATO invaders and then we can sort out our problems among our tribes including the so-called “NATO Rebels.”

http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2011/07/12/france-says-nato-bombing-has-failed/

But, okay, people like that were wrong, and are on the losing side now. Plan B, be defeated by the invaders' foot soldiers, then see if it can be worked out among Libyans. And one way or another, it will.

Gaddafi was a dictator. The people rose up against him. The people went to the streets.

End of story. Plus, they won anyway.

Sorry I'm kind of an *******. I do appreciate your willingness to discuss this stuff with me.

On the 50 skeletons I allegedly didn't believe happened, I refer to LGR's argument these were the victims of NATO bombs, at least in part, and thus presumably Gaddafi soldiers for the most part. A few, one report said, had holes in their heads. A few seem bound, laid lined up, on their sides (the same). But others are just piled, mostly along one line, or 1/3 of the room, which seems odd.

There are quite a few fragmented parts - spine, a femur, etc. just piled together. The way the bodies are piled looks less like living people than like things dumped off the back of a truck.

I thought rebels took the area Aug 23, but it was four days later, it seems. NATO bombed the compound pre-dawn Aug 27, rebels attacked at dawn, and after seven hours took it. [source] Sometime after, "locals found" this shed, with the massacre of the 23rd inside, the media was filming it on the 28th, and smoke was still rising.

So it's possible a late-night Aug 26 Khamis brigade fire on their earlier kills might still be smoldering a day and a half later? Maybe. Need to clarify what the different witnesses said. Did any of them say the fire was done right after or any particular time.

 

[RandFan]

Various. There are videos of some of the masses around. Happened July 1 in Tripoli and other cities. You didn't know about it?

Videos demonstrating Gaddafi supporters numbering in the millions? In every revolution there are loyalists. That there were citizens loyal to Gaddafi is hardly news or proof of anything.

It's been said...

That won't get you far with me. There will always be people who say things that are of little or no semblance of the truth.

But, okay, people like that were wrong, and are on the losing side now. Plan B, be defeated by the invaders' foot soldiers, then see if it can be worked out among Libyans. And one way or another, it will.

Please, enough with the propaganda. Do you have evidence that this was not an uprising? Are you consistent and assert that all revolutions are invasions?

End of story. Plus, they won anyway.

Sorry I'm kind of an *******. I do appreciate your willingness to discuss this stuff with me.

I'm more than happy to have a discussion with anyone. I only ask for evidence of one's claims. I don't have a religious like devotion to my country. I don't mind people criticizing America. There is lots to criticize. I only ask for moral consistency and a willingness to discuss in good faith. That means not making baseless claims or engaging in propaganda to fit a bias.

 

[Caustic Logic]

I only ask for moral consistency and a willingness to discuss in good faith. That means not making baseless claims or engaging in propaganda to fit a bias.

Perhaps our definitions of bias and propaganda differ, but I think we've both blown that last clause. But we can keep going anyway, maybe. Later for me. Other things today...

 

[JihadJane]

'Recollections of My Life', written by Col. Muammar Gaddafi, April 8, 2011, excerpts:

"Now, I am under attack by the biggest force in military history, my little African son, Obama wants to kill me, to take away the freedom of our country, to take away our free housing, our free medicine, our free education, our free food, and replace it with American style thievery, called "capitalism," but all of us in the Third World know what that means, it means corporations run the countries, run the world, and the people suffer, so, there is no alternative for me, I must make my stand, and if Allah wishes, I shall die by following his path, the path that has made our country rich with farmland, with food and health, and even allowed us to help our African and Arab brothers and sisters to work here with us ... I do not wish to die, but if it comes to that, to save this land, my people, all the thousands who are all my children, then so be it. ... In the West, some have called me "mad", "crazy". They know the truth but continue to lie, they know that our land is independent and free, not in the colonial grip."


"Why are you attacking us? Why are you killing our children? Why are you destroying our infrastructure?"
– Television address by Libyan Leader Muammar Gaddafi, April 30, 2011

'Anti-Empire Report

Libya And The World We Live In ' - William Blum

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Noam Chomsky: 'As long they get the backing of dictators, it doesn't matter to western governments what Arab populations think' – video

The 19th century ... 2001 ... today. Noam Chomsky sees hegemonic powers showing extreme contempt for democracy – and acting in ways they know will increase terrorism

 

[bikerdruid]

'Recollections of My Life', written by Col. Muammar Gaddafi, April 8, 2011, excerpts:

"Now, I am under attack by the biggest force in military history, my little African son, Obama wants to kill me, to take away the freedom of our country, to take away our free housing, our free medicine, our free education, our free food, and replace it with American style thievery, called "capitalism," but all of us in the Third World know what that means, it means corporations run the countries, run the world, and the people suffer, so, there is no alternative for me, I must make my stand, and if Allah wishes, I shall die by following his path, the path that has made our country rich with farmland, with food and health, and even allowed us to help our African and Arab brothers and sisters to work here with us ... I do not wish to die, but if it comes to that, to save this land, my people, all the thousands who are all my children, then so be it. ... In the West, some have called me "mad", "crazy". They know the truth but continue to lie, they know that our land is independent and free, not in the colonial grip."


"Why are you attacking us? Why are you killing our children? Why are you destroying our infrastructure?"
– Television address by Libyan Leader Muammar Gaddafi, April 30, 2011

'Anti-Empire Report

Libya And The World We Live In ' - William Blum

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Noam Chomsky: 'As long they get the backing of dictators, it doesn't matter to western governments what Arab populations think' – video

The 19th century ... 2001 ... today. Noam Chomsky sees hegemonic powers showing extreme contempt for democracy – and acting in ways they know will increase terrorism

thankyou for this excellent post, jane.