When is Lying Justified?

[Kaylee]

I think it's morally justified to lie to anyone who is trying to scam you, but tactically it may not be the right move - scammers are practiced liars.

It's difficult to know how to handle liars and scammers in general.

I finally came up with this -- I do my best to avoid them, but if I can't -- I get everything in writing.

It probably doesn't pay to lie back because its like fighting with a pig. In the end everyone gets dirty and no one remembers which one is the pig.

 

[Kaylee]

There is none that is founded upon anything other than opinion.

It doesn't matter whether a moral system is held by only one person or by one billion - popularity doesn't make something correct or well-founded.

I assure you that I've been saying similar things for years.

I'm not sure that's true. I recall that there has been at least one scientific study quoted in the JREF science forum that shows that even primates have an innate sense of fairness.

Many societies appear to have developed similar laws independently which would appear to indicate that fairness is based on objectiveness. If the laws actually do help create and maintain a just society -- than I think we can determine that its based on objectiveness and not just popularity.

While thinking about the posts in this thread it seems to me that the justifications for lying that hold up better under scrutiny are the ones that prevent a dishonorable person A from using another person B to do something that would be wrong, unfair or harmful. Person B, or any other person, has a right to lie to Person A in order to stop him from doing something wrong, unfair or harmful.

Hmmm, perhaps that would be a good way to determine if a justification for lying is actually just. And the boundary for limiting the amount and extent of lies told in these situations would be to stop as soon as the dishonorable person is successfully blocked.

The only thing I would add is that people have a right to privacy, including a right to lie to protect their privacy if necc., unless we are talking about knowledge other people need to make a decision.

Examples

* John Smith has a right to keep his salary private, including by lying if that is his only recourse, unless he's a government employee. As a govt. employee, his salary is paid by taxpayes and he has no right to keep his salary private from taxpayers.


* Mary Smith has a right to keep her health information to herself, including by lying if that is her only recourse, However if she has a STD, she has no right to not share that information with potential sexual partners. (Which is why passing on the AIDS virus is a crime.)

 

[Ausmerican]

So ... no white lies in the Ausamerican house. How do you get along with your mother-in-law?

Better now that she doesn't ask me questions.

 

[Kaylee]

While thinking about the posts in this thread it seems to me that the justifications for lying that hold up better under scrutiny are the ones that prevent a dishonorable person A from using another person B to do something that would be wrong, unfair or harmful. Person B, or any other person, has a right to lie to Person A in order to stop him from doing something wrong, unfair or harmful.

Hmmm, perhaps that would be a good way to determine if a justification for lying is actually just. And the boundary for limiting the amount and extent of lies told in these situations would be to stop as soon as the dishonorable person is successfully blocked.

The only thing I would add is that people have a right to privacy, including a right to lie to protect their privacy if necc., unless we are talking about knowledge other people need to make a decision.

It just struck me that it's not illegal for people to lie in most situations. There are exceptions -- but for the most part it's not illegal.

Interesting.

If someone wants to pull a fast one on me and I loose my temper and hit him -- that's illegal. But if I decide to stop him by lying -- that's not.

Of course in Bok's book she argues that people for the most part underestimate the high cost of lies to society and that there is often a better way to handle a situation.

That is actually her main point, sort of understated but I'm too lazy to rewrite it now.

She discusses many justifications for lying in her book but she never explicitlly says that this justification is right or that one is wrong. She just, with a few notable exceptions, points out their shortcomings.

She ends the book by strongly encouraging people to find another way to handle situations commonly dealt with by deception other than by lying or with deceit.

There's often another way. As she points out in the beginning of her book, it use to be common not to tell people that they were dying but that is no longer the custom.

And, in fact, people are now encouraged to think ahead of time on how they would like their final days handled by preparing medical wills, who they would like to be their medical guardian if needed, and etc. in advance.

People are more likely to be told that their end is near and they have a chance to say their goodbyes and reflect upon their lives. It's an example of how an area that was commonly handled with deceipt and lies in the past no longer is, and most of us and our families are better off for it.

 

[Kaylee]

I always lie.

And that's the truth!

 

[welshdean]

Answering "No" to this question may be the absolute Truth. If it is the cellulite that is making them look fat.

No, it's the fat that makes them look fat.

I'd agree, though I'd say it's probably not a common occurrence. But yes, the greater good can sometimes be served by a lie.

Not 'sometimes' but 'often'.

"Have you seen this runaway slave?" or "Are your neighbors hiding any Jews?"

I've seen this 'lie' be offered as an example of a 'gate-way to hell' on these boards. Disgusting as it is, the statement was made by an evangelical that (I believe) actually thought it to be true.
Was (s)he lying?

And yes, the law of unintended consequences applies. We might think it will spare Bobby unnecessary harm to tell him Rover just ran away, rather than was hit by a car and died while Bobby was at school, but this lie could end up causing harm in other ways. And it doesn't help Bobby learn to deal with death, either.

That's not lying, that's shielding a young child from things that a young child shouldn't have to face.

Ausmerican, What you told your four year old, was totally exceptable! They are not ready for that kind of truth yet! Five more years!

FIVE more years!!
She'll only be 9.

Really give you credit for telling, mother-in-law that her fat butt, made her fat butt look big! Most people can't get away with that one!
I'm short, but I'm fat! They tell me I have to get petite size! Excuse me for the way I think, but when did over 200 lbs. become petite? Why can't you just say short? When you are as heavy as I am, why can't you just say your fat? I do, I own it! If I hit the lotto and became rich, I would get my clothes tailor made by omar, the tent maker!

Yeah, I did the same with my mother in law. I'm 'heavy' too. When people say that I look fat I come back with that I have bad feet. I can't keep them out of the chipshop.

Bok talks about politics and lies in her book.

She also discusses President Lyndon B. Johnson. IIRC, she said that 2 months before the 1964 election he had decided to escalate the war in Viet Nam. But he didn't think he would have the nation's support and he didn't think he would be able to change public opinion before the next election. So, he postponed the military escalation and he indicated in all of his public comments that he was not going to escalate America's military involvement in Viet Nam. Than he went ahead and did so after November.

As was Blairs position regarding tuition fees here in the UK.

It probably doesn't pay to lie back because its like fighting with a pig. In the end everyone gets dirty and no one remembers which one is the pig.

And both the pig and you, will enjoy the fight.


Unless of course, you're lying.

 

[Mr. Scott]

So when I'm feeling a bit down and someone asks how I'm doing, by telling them that I'm fine, I'm engaging in an act of psychological manipulation and emotional dominance? Awesome.

I guess exaggerating can be a straw man tactic, and sarcasm is a kind of fiction to entertain.

Telling someone you are fine when you are not fine is making them do something that they NOT would do if you told the truth. Yes, it is being controlling. That it's minor or benign does not make it not controlling. It may also be a mistake, because the person you are telling "I'm fine" to may be able to help you. You are preventing them from doing what they would do if they knew the truth.

In nature, what do you suppose the lowest creature is that lies? E.g. harmless insects color themselves to look like stinging insects? Viruses that appear to be benign proteins, causing their victim cells to let them in? In these examples, the "control and power" model still holds.

You cause the recipient of the lie to act differently than they would if they knew the truth, putting the liar in a superior position.

 

[Mr. Scott]

Is automatically saying "Hi, How are you? I'm fine." a lie, or social shorthand? I think its understood to be the later.

Sure, it's a lie and it's shorthand, and force of habit hasn't any motivation, but the habit was developed from past lying of course.

 

[I Ratant]

... I'm 'heavy' too. When people say that I look fat I come back with that I have bad feet. I can't keep them out of the chipshop.

...

.
Just tell them they're ugly, but you can diet.

 

[slingblade]

Not 'sometimes' but 'often'.

I have no way to know how many lies might "benefit the common good," nor do you, so I will stick with my opinion of "sometimes," thank you.

I've seen this 'lie' be offered as an example of a 'gate-way to hell' on these boards. Disgusting as it is, the statement was made by an evangelical that (I believe) actually thought it to be true.
Was (s)he lying?

In your response, you've wrongly attributed some of my statements to someone else. Don't worry; I promise not to consider it a lie.

Was the evangelical lying? In what way?

To believe a lie, and repeat it, is not a deliberate falsehood; it's not lying on your part. You believe you are speaking the truth. Thus, at worst you are ignorant, not mendacious.

To hold an ill-informed opinion and repeat it as fact is also not lying, in and of itself. It is also ignorance, unless and until you learn you've been mistaken. After that, if you persist, then I'd say you're lying at that point.

Being wrong, mistaken, poorly informed, or ignorant aren't the same as being a liar.

That's not lying, that's shielding a young child from things that a young child shouldn't have to face.

That you can find and accept a justification for lying doesn't make "Rover ran away" a true statement. Rover did not run away. Rover died.

I don't recall giving an age for "Bobby" in my analogy. I never said he was "young." Bobby could be 16. Or he could be 5. In any case, I've rarely heard stories of how grateful people were to find out years later that their beloved pet hadn't run away after all, but had been stone dead all this time. Or that Grandma, for that matter, didn't really move to China when you were six...

More often--frankly, every time--I hear people say how angry they are at having carried false hope, however tenuous, for those years. If Rover just ran away, if Grandma just moved, either could come back one day. Rather sounds like wishful thinking. I see no benefit in fostering it.

Young children may have a difficult time processing death, and older children will grieve. Life's hard. Bad things happen. You do them no favors wrapping them in cotton wool. You teach them about death, with love and support, and you grant them the dignity of their own grief. Lying about it is cruel.

And rather selfish.

FIVE more years!!
She'll only be 9.

Oh, they know all about sex by then. If she were to catch you at it, she'd probably just giggle and leave you to it.

 

[Mr. Scott]

Lying about Love

This situation fascinates me:

Every morning, the first thing Jim says when he wakes up is tell his spouse, "I love you," because he really feels that love when he first sees her.

One morning, after a call from an old girlfriend the day before, he discovers he does not have any of the feeling of love for her that he usually does. The feeling is gone. When she awakens and looks him in the eyes, he says, out of habit but not at all from the heart, "I love you."

Was he justified?

 

[Brian-M]

I think the simpler truth is incomplete. What lie is not intended to deceive? Can you give me a few examples?

Irony^WP, metaphor, hyperbole^WP and social niceties.

Is automatically saying "Hi, How are you? I'm fine." a lie, or social shorthand? I think its understood to be the later.

So making a false statement intended to deceive another person as to your current emotive state is somehow not a lie? Exactly which definition of "lie" are you using?

Telling someone you are fine when you are not fine is making them do something that they NOT would do if you told the truth. Yes, it is being controlling.

What if you're pretty sure that the person asking doesn't actually give a damn about how you're feeling, and is just asking out of a sense of obligation to follow social convention? How is that making them do something they would not normally do?

 

[JihadJane]

When a war is to be launched.

 

[Mr. Scott]

What if you're pretty sure that the person asking doesn't actually give a damn about how you're feeling, and is just asking out of a sense of obligation to follow social convention? How is that making them do something they would not normally do?

Brian, you again reword my statements and change their meaning.

I didn't say anything about what people would "normally" do. I'm talking about what people would do if you told them the truth, compared to what they would do if you lied.

Force of habit (and social conventions) indeed divorce intent from behavior. That point I already made. When we lie out of habit, we can forget the intent. Each time I lock my door, I'm not trembling with fear of a robbery. My hands just turn the key while my mind is occupied with other things. That does not mean locking the door has no function. The function is just no longer in my mind.

If you are at death's door and someone who you think doesn't care asks how you are, and you mindlessly say "I'm fine" then perhaps you're doing something mindlessly out of habit.

Analyze it this way: What would the recipient of the lie do differently if you told them the truth?

 

[Mr. Scott]

Brian, I will concede one point to you: Lying is justified when you are in a social setting in which some type of habitual lying is the norm, and you don't want to rock the boat.

 

[Tricky]

Brian, I will concede one point to you: Lying is justified when you are in a social setting in which some type of habitual lying is the norm, and you don't want to rock the boat.

You mean like on your resumé/CV?

 

[P.J. Denyer]

"Does this make me look fat?"

"Your fat makes you look fat, the sweater makes you look purple"

 

[sphenisc]

This situation fascinates me:

Every morning, the first thing Jim says when he wakes up is tell his spouse, "I love you," because he really feels that love when he first sees her.

One morning, after a call from an old girlfriend the day before, he discovers he does not have any of the feeling of love for her that he usually does. The feeling is gone. When she awakens and looks him in the eyes, he says, out of habit but not at all from the heart, "I love you."

Was he justified?

Yes, because "love" and "feelings of love" are two different things.

 

[Resume]

"Jerry just remember, a lie isn't a lie if you believe it."

 

[JJM 777]

I think lying is justified when you are very tired and need some rest.