Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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From the New York Times story on the case:

QUOTE
The DNA “is just one element of the accusatory case,” one prosecutor, Manuela Comodi, said in a telephone interview before leaving for her summer holidays. Apart from other physical elements tying the couple to the crime, “other proof must be considered,” she said, starting with their alibi and a break-in at the apartment that prosecutors believe was staged to deflect suspicion “from someone who lived in the house, and that person could only be Amanda.”
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The alibi comment is nonsense, but the break-in statement should be rebutted by the defense.

It does look like Comodi is pretty much resigned about the DNA. Maybe the prosecution finally realised that the longer they clash about it the more they attract attention to Steffi's ****** work and the deeper hole they dig themselves in. Let's see if there will be a tactical retreat to the "other proof" position in court.
 
Hi Christaianahanna,
I agree with you completely. Peoples personal lives should not be invaded. Stalking of peoples private life is not only nonproductive, but also offensive to me. Contacting employers of posters is outrageous. I say argue the case and stay out of personal attacks.
While it would be great if everyone was honest about their qualifications, there will always be exagerations and dishonesty to a degree. Let the facts tell the story. I am speaking of posters on both sides.
 
As I see it the Alibi and ToD are one.

The defense, the earlier ToD is supported by the 10:13pm call connecting to the outside tower and Rudy confessing the murder was over then and he fled around this time.

Preceding this is an abundance of strong evidence that Amanda and Raffaele were there at the apartment at 8:40 to 9:10/9:26pm. Supported by cell logs, pc activity, eye witness Popovic. (A very strong alibi, imo.)

Both sides agree Sophie Purton left Meredith and Meredith went that distance alone arriving approx 9pm.

Prosecution claims 11:30pm ToD and has Nara hearing someone to support this claim.
They also offer a non activity of cell phones and pc activity as proof.
Curatolo says he saw the two and also saw the buses and masks people were wearing, admitting he was high on heroin.
 
On further reflection, I find the stalking of people that have stepped up to plate using their own name and made their positions known as the worst of these actions. Contacting Leeds College, the school in Hawaii, Pepperdine, Seattle Prep, Boise State, NYT, etc. in order to harm these people is a nasty business.

Now both sides have participated in these behaviors to some extent, but the PG people have made an art of it and seem to be proud of it.
 
Of course, it defies logic that A & R would stage a break-in but forget to clean the blood off the faucet and the mat. They also forgot to have an alibi story of what they had that evening. They did dispose of everything (shoes, clothes, knife, etc.) but the bleach receipt, oh yeah that never existed.

A while back I ask about Meredith's messaging history. I would think the defense could show that Meredith didn't have a history of playing with her phone a night or misdialing her bank and VM. The ToD and known alibi seem the strongest defense.
 
You certainly aren't. The off topic, pointless and silly inter-forum wars have blighted this thread for years and reflect badly on those who perpetuate it. You just have to look at the last few posts..........
I disagree. First, PMF is notorious for attempting to "out" or humiliate those who disagree with its opinions. But more importantly, Miss Represented, of the blog, Lies Our Mothers Told Us, is not a mere poster.

For several years, she has portrayed herself as a professional expert on the MK murder, in terms of psychological analysis of the defendants.

She was the first person I encountered when researching the case for my own blog, and her writings influenced me heavily; so much so, that I began blogging about Knox based on Miss Represented's theories. It was Ms R's writings which originally convinced me of the defendants' guilt - a view I have since recanted - and I extended an invitation to her to read and comment on my blog, which she accepted.

I was stunned to realize that Ms. Represented had in fact misrepresented herself, and I am thankful for this information, which I only learned today, on this forum....
 
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Late the other night, I happened to catch a programme about the murder of Caroline Dickinson, a British schoolgirl, in France in 1996. I remembered the case to a degree, but the programme exposed a number of interesting points of similarity (to my mind) with the Kercher murder investigation.

The case was handled from the start by an investigating judge (the French criminal justice system is still a predominantly inquisitorial system - particularly for serious crimes). There was a great deal of pressure on the investigating judge to solve the case: the murder had a very high profile, both in France and in the UK, and the girl had been killed in a shared room in a Youth Hostel (which had serious implications for the French tourist industry, especially in the important area of student exchanges).

Within a few days of the murder, the judge announced that the killer had been caught. A local drifter had "made a full confession" to the crime, and the judge essentially announced that the case was solved. However, the victim had been sexually assaulted during the murder, and the killer had left semen at the scene. DNA tests soon proved that the drifter who'd made the "confession" was not the killer. The judge reacted with insolence and a fit of pique, and at first insisted that the drifter had been one of a group of killers, and that the semen came from an "accomplice". In addition, the police (under the judge's direction) had taken virtually no statements from the other students in the hostel or people living nearby, and had botched the forensic examination of the scene (does all this sound familiar....?).

Eventually, the victim's father petitioned successfully (with help from the British Embassy in Paris) to get the judge replaced as the head of the investigation. But even the new judge conducted a pretty lacklustre investigation, despite officially disregarding the drifter as a suspect. After an intensive campaign by the victim's father, the judge agreed (reluctantly) to DNA test all men between 16 and 50 living in and around the small village where the murder occurred. But there were no matches.

Somewhat by chance, the publicity generated by the DNA tests and a rough police photofit (based on the half-asleep remembrances of one of the other girls in the murder room) jogged the memory of one of the local residents, who remembered a Spanish drifter who'd been working on nearby building sites who resembled the photofit. The drifter's name was Francisco Arce Montes. Police quickly established that he had a prior criminal record for sexual crimes committed in youth hostels. So he quickly became the chief suspect. The new judge had a quick look for Montes in France and Europe, but without success. Within a few months, the investigation was put onto the back burner.

Then an extraordinary coincidence led to the capture and conviction of Montes. The victim's father was still trying to generate publicity, and persuaded the UK Sunday Telegraph newspaper to publish a story highlighting how the French authorities had the name of the chief suspect, but seemed either unable or unwilling to seek him out. A US Customs official was conducting an investigation at Detroit Airport, and while he was waiting for a colleague, he thumbed through a copy of the Sunday Telegraph at one of the airport newsstands. He happened upon the story mentioning Montes, and idly wondered whether US authorities had ever been consulted about Montes' whereabouts (they hadn't). When he got back to his office, he looked up Montes in the national crime computer databases, and discovered to his amazement that Montes had just been arrested in Miami for sexual offences against a number of girls in a backpackers' hotel near the beach. Eventually, a DNA sample was taken, and it perfectly matched the semen sample from Caroline Dickinson's body. Montes was ultimately convicted of her murder.

To me, there are a number of very interesting similarities between these two cases, notably: the pressure for results; the consequent rush to judgement; the improper obtaining and usage of "confessions"; the belligerence of the investigating judges/prosecutors; the unwillingness to discard the initial suspect(s), even when logic suggested that he/they had nothing to do with the crime; the botched collection of physical evidence and witness statements; and the way that the local authorities drew in the wagons when faced with criticism (or even tough questioning of methods).


ETA: I do hope everyone in Irene's way manages to stay safe. Best wishes to all fellow posters in N Carolina and up the Eastern Seaboard.

All very true LJ and thanks for the concern about Irene - Pittsburgh wasn't affected and besides I was in Chicago for a wedding anyway.:) My sister in Worcester MA had a lot of rain.

I think you overlooked one thing in your summary above - a big difference between the two cases - Ms. Dickinson's father didn't just want somebody to be arrested and convicted for his daughter's murder, he wanted the right somebody caught and convicted!
 
Well I know nothing of this person or the others who comment, blog, etc. (unless they make their identity known themselves). What I don't understand or like is the systematic stalking, outing, whatever you would like to term it, of anyone who has a position that is different from the one you hold.

As to this person being different than the average commenter or someone with a little blog, how so? Truth is always truth and deception always deception whether it is contained in a comment, a little blog (or whatever it is this person has). And how much weight and authority did this person carry as far as public perception of the case? Call out the untruth and deception with truth and facts. It is as if people on either side are keeping score as to how many people they can say "gotcha" to.

I give equal standing to the acts on both sides. Perhaps I do so because I belong to neither side.

And I would agree with you that yes, it is easy to brush stuff like this under the rug when it is not your son or daughter being dragged through the mud or your daughter which has been murdered.

It's one thing to out someone just to out them. It's another to out someone as a fraud. If there is "systemic outing" as you describe, this is completely separate from that.

"Call out the untruth and deception with truth and facts." Yes, I agree. Just like it is both truth and fact that this person was masquerading as an expert psychologist, where the other blogs were touting her credentials as well. If she wants to parade under this pseudo authority, she can hardly be surprised that people would like to reveal the fraud she perpetuated.

"I give equal standing to the acts on both sides. Perhaps I do so because I belong to neither side."

Both sides are not equal.
 
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As to recent posts - am I the only person who finds it rather creepy that those on both sides (innocent or guilty) are in a race to "out" those who comment or blog on the case? I must admit I find it frightening yet interesting at the same time.

I cannot fathom why this happening but to me it appears that Meredith, Amanda, Raffaele, justice and truth have taken a secondary place to this "war" between the two sides.

The last time I posted at PMF The Machine claimed I was a 20 something person with a birthday coming up in a few days. It was not accurate but that was not the point. It's crazy. I have made no claims of expertise. I am just an ordinary person with an interest in the case.

Concerning the war between the two sides. Some of this is silly as well. I have to tell you that I have withdrawn my participation from the trial transcript project because even though I had been promised the rest of the transcripts at the last minute there was a condition added that I drop one of the members of my team that happened to be a member at PMF.

Both myself and this team member are no longer a part of the project.
 
Well I know nothing of this person or the others who comment, blog, etc. (unless they make their identity known themselves). What I don't understand or like is the systematic stalking, outing, whatever you would like to term it, of anyone who has a position that is different from the one you hold.

I think there is a bright line we can draw between outing people for misrepresenting themselves and outing people for its own sake.

If someone says "I am a trial lawyer and..." or "I am a psychologist and..." then they have put their credentials on the table as an argumentative point, and I feel strongly that this makes their credentials fair game for examination.

It's for this reason I don't bring up any relevant qualifications and work experience I might have: I'd rather my arguments stand or fall on their own. Appeals to authority are fallacious, and a competent authority ought to be able to mount a conclusive argument for their position anyway.

There is no bright line I can see for the other cases of outing by the pro-innocence community. Since people like Peggy Ganong and Peter Quennel were actively involved in attempts to out and harass pro-guilt speakers you could argue "they started it!" but that's not exactly a knock-down argument. Overall I'd honestly prefer that their offline lives had been left strictly alone.

However once the information's out there I'm willing to discuss it if it seems like there is the possibility of gaining insight into why these people behave in such irrational, malevolent ways. I suspect that compensating for their own insecurities by retreating into a fantasy world where they are tough, informed, qualified, young, fit, sexy people fighting for justice (as opposed to the total opposite) is a large part of it.
 
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Italian judges must acquit Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito as "Non Colpevoli"
http://www.examiner.com/ny-in-new-y...-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito-as-non-colpevoli
What struck me when I skimmed this article for the first time was the strong criticism and comparisons of USA and Italy justice systems that can be seen as unfair. I even thought that such strong opinion may raise again the voices about anti-Italian, xenophobic attitude of the innocence supporters. Only then I checked who the author is.

Gianluca D'Agostino is quite a high profile Italian journalist who in 2009 wrote fierce defences of the initial verdict and attacked American commentators and politicians objecting it.
I think it is very interesting (and ominous for the guilt camp :) ) that he made such a 180 degree turn since then:
In the first place, thanks to this fractured system of things and the italian media brainwashing machine, I was almost convinced of the defendants guilty. Then, thanks to the defendants commitment in proving their innocence, we have learned that those forensic evidence on which the prosecution based their case were contaminated and that the credibility of some of the witnesses was contested.

He raises good points that are probably not new to most here:
Although in my opinion the key factor of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito's innocence is based upon the silent behavior of the only convicted killer of this murder: Rudy Guede.

Indeed if this was a collective murder why Rudy Guede did not choose a plea deal in order to get a lighter sentence by involving Sollecito and Knox in the murder?

Another crucial question is why Rudy Guede appealed to his right of remaning silent and decided not to reveal the nature of the defendants involvement?

and

The facts objectively and legally demonstrate that Rudy Guede is definitely the author of the murder. Meanwhile the prosecution's theory failed to demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are guilty and what was their contribution to the crime.

and
The Italian media are not used to question the prosecutor's work, that's why prosecutors in Italy are allowed to keep their case alive despite a complete lack of evidence or a totally incoherent picture.
 
Then, thanks to the defendants commitment in proving their innocence, we have learned that those forensic evidence on which the prosecution based their case were contaminated and that the credibility of some of the witnesses was contested

Obviously he got his information from the $100 million Knox/Mellos PR machine. What do you think this article cost them? Probably $1 million, but that's only peanuts for them.

Only the travel writers Vogt and Nadeau have been able to resist the temptation until now and appears Nadeau may be moving towards the dark side.

;)
 
Well I know nothing of this person or the others who comment, blog, etc. (unless they make their identity known themselves). What I don't understand or like is the systematic stalking, outing, whatever you would like to term it, of anyone who has a position that is different from the one you hold.

As to this person being different than the average commenter or someone with a little blog, how so? Truth is always truth and deception always deception whether it is contained in a comment, a little blog (or whatever it is this person has). And how much weight and authority did this person carry as far as public perception of the case? Call out the untruth and deception with truth and facts. It is as if people on either side are keeping score as to how many people they can say "gotcha" to.

I give equal standing to the acts on both sides. Perhaps I do so because I belong to neither side.

And I would agree with you that yes, it is easy to brush stuff like this under the rug when it is not your son or daughter being dragged through the mud or your daughter which has been murdered.


I agree with you to a certain extent about the appropriateness of the stalking and outing, christianahannah. However, it has been inevitable and necessary in this case that "calling out the untruth and deception with truth and facts" has had to extend beyond the truth and facts about the evidence into the truth and facts about the people who are involved in the case. For example, few case-followers on the side of innocence would have reached their conclusions without also learning "the truth and facts" about the history, behavior and proclivities of Giuliano Mignini or Patrizia Stefanoni. Knowledge of those truths and facts is inherent to an understanding of the case.

I agree most strongly with Humanity Blues, who states that both sides are not equal. If the presumption of innocence were a given, as prescribed by Italian law, and the case rested on honest interpretations of the evidence and an efficient, non-incestuous legal system, Amanda would have been home more than three years ago. This case exists and persists solely because of GADFLIES, both in Perugia and on the internet, who find satisfaction in harassing other people.

The pro-guilt side serves no useful purpose, while the pro-innocence side has a legitimate goal. It is only because the guilters insinuated themselves into the lives of the Knox/Mellas and Sollecito families that the occasion to find out who they are arose. The fact that they can be downright dangerous justifies a continued interest in keeping an eye on them.
 
I agree with you to a certain extent about the appropriateness of the stalking and outing, christianahannah. However, it has been inevitable and necessary in this case that "calling out the untruth and deception with truth and facts" has had to extend beyond the truth and facts about the evidence into the truth and facts about the people who are involved in the case. For example, few case-followers on the side of innocence would have reached their conclusions without also learning "the truth and facts" about the history, behavior and proclivities of Giuliano Mignini or Patrizia Stefanoni. Knowledge of those truths and facts is inherent to an understanding of the case.

I agree most strongly with Humanity Blues, who states that both sides are not equal. If the presumption of innocence were a given, as prescribed by Italian law, and the case rested on honest interpretations of the evidence and an efficient, non-incestuous legal system, Amanda would have been home more than three years ago. This case exists and persists solely because of GADFLIES, both in Perugia and on the internet, who find satisfaction in harassing other people.

The pro-guilt side serves no useful purpose, while the pro-innocence side has a legitimate goal. It is only because the guilters insinuated themselves into the lives of the Knox/Mellas and Sollecito families that the occasion to find out who they are arose. The fact that they can be downright dangerous justifies a continued interest in keeping an eye on them.

I don't think we should paint all of those on the side of guilt with the same brush. I am convinced there are a few that are interested in finding out the truth of things, despite their opinion of guilt.
 
Besides thoughtful, stewarthome2000 and wantsjustice are there any others that would accept a truth of not guilty?
 
Fine is a good example. I also believe pilot has some doubt, as does lionking, and others that I just can't think of offhand. There are a few that I believe stopped posting there as evidence of innocence became more clear. I have seen this type of thing happen on other boards. Ones that have changed their minds don't always start announcing such things after such a long time that they have invested in different position.
 
I think there is a bright line we can draw between outing people for misrepresenting themselves and outing people for its own sake.

I agree. It's also possible to draw a line between discussion on the Internet and complaints to employers or other people with the aim of causing problems for the target.

In the case of Miss Represented, it seems entirely fair to reveal her lack of credentials, because she has presented herself as an expert. I would strongly oppose the idea of contacting her employer or anyone else to complain about her.

I had an interesting experience with Miss R. On April 30, 2009, she posted an essay about organized vs. disorganized killers, a distinction that Robert Ressler, John Douglas and others have examined in detail. Her composition included a stunningly incorrect statement, as follows:

Disorganised offenders will often stage a crime scene to cover the spontaneity of the act and the inevitable fear of being caught.

http://missrepresented.net/blog/

Clearly she has has not read or does not understand the sources she cites. I troubled myself to look up what Robert Ressler actually says about staging and disorganized offenders, as follows:

No disorganized offender is capable of staging a crime scene, although the very chaos of some crime scenes later attributed to disorganized offenders may at first give rise to various contradictory theories of what has happened at the site.

http://bit.ly/oMtx1x

I submitted this in a comment, but she didn't approve it. Nor did she correct her article.
 
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The last time I posted at PMF The Machine claimed I was a 20 something person with a birthday coming up in a few days. It was not accurate but that was not the point. It's crazy. I have made no claims of expertise. I am just an ordinary person with an interest in the case.

Concerning the war between the two sides. Some of this is silly as well. I have to tell you that I have withdrawn my participation from the trial transcript project because even though I had been promised the rest of the transcripts at the last minute there was a condition added that I drop one of the members of my team that happened to be a member at PMF.

Both myself and this team member are no longer a part of the project.

Well I quit posting at PMF after you and Chris were asked not to post there anymore and some of the posts became what I have addressed today. I went back when Yummi posted some observations about the bathmat but haven't posted there since. I have never posted at IIP but have read there.

I haven't a desire to expose anonymous people who comment, who blog, etc. and realize that those who do comment and blog for the most part are not experts and I don't look upon them as such. I read, read and read some more, research and then decide whether what they write is factual or not. They have no influence over my opinions concerning this case.

As far as people who have made their identity known, what they write can come under scrutiny but in no way would I ever condone harassment of the person or quashing of their right to their opinion. I may counter with an opposite opinion but it would be done respectfully.

I am sorry for the project. The more factually correct information that is out there the better it is to understand this case regardless of where the information comes from.
 
Just a fantastic article on the Scazzi murder case here. This quote tells the story:

http://translate.google.com/transla...ate.google.com&sl=it&u=http://www.kronaka.it/

On the history of Avetrana there have been dozens of episodes of programs, afternoon and evening, with crowds of criminologists and psychiatrists to run from one study to another, sometimes without even knowing anything about what they were talking about. There is no doubt that a parallel process, what is called "mass media", has already been done and has already established the perpetrators of this story. The actual process, somewhere, sooner or later you will. Now Michael has also built an altar Misseri in his garage, with candles and photos of Sarah torn from newspapers. I got a feeling that soon we will see on television even the little altar, with "Uncle Michael" that describes it.


There is a more recent article on this blog about the case. It seems the real murderer is writing a book.
 
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