Merged Libya: People's Revolution / Criminal Imperialism?

[Caustic Logic]

Wouldn't it be great if there were only good guys and bad gays and only good actions and bad actions? I can't say that this was only good or only bad. I'm sorry for the people who have died.

Bad gays? Why no good ones?

I agree it's not all bad - there are bound to be good things for some coming out of this. But I feel it's vastly more bad than good. Considering the moral imperative - saving people from bombings, mercenaries, mass rape, "genocide," etc, have fallen apart. None of those was happening.

 

[Travis]

that was not for you or me to decide.

Are we not all human?

If you see a woman being attacked by men do you just ignore it because it's not for "you" to decide who is right or wrong in the situation?

 

[RandFan]

Bad gays? Why no good ones?

Good catch.

I agree it's not all bad - there are bound to be good things for some coming out of this. But I feel it's vastly more bad than good. Considering the moral imperative - saving people from bombings, mercenaries, mass rape, "genocide," etc, have fallen apart. None of those was happening.

Good points. Then again there are people who believe that this is a chance for them to be free. The French Revolution was horrific. The Guillotine didn't slow down until it had killed a lot of people including the original leaders of the revolution. I honestly don't know.

 

[little grey rabbit]

It is always difficult for me to understand how people perform these kinds of calculus.

The overthrow of Saddam Hussein and resulting insurgency probably easily cost a 100 000 lives, but then again Iraq under Saddam was becoming a complete mess - albeit the major reason for that mess was the sanctions and the Oil for Food rip-off. In many ways you could point to positive things in Iraq compared with before and say the price was worth it - or so one could argue and ignoring the possibilities that didnt involve bombing and invasion.

However Libya was not a mess before intervention - not only did it top every known human development index for Africa, it was a driver of African economic development and integration (much to the fury of France). The other driver was Algeria, which we presume must now have moved into the cross-hairs of the international community.

One of the things that the Foreign Minister of Libya said before he defected was he was afraid Libya would turn into Somalia. It maybe the flow of oil revenues will provide the glue that prevents that, but the Shabaab of Somali with their guns mounted on the back of pick-up trucks look awfully similar to the Shabaab of Libya.

The sudden assassination of the former Interior Minister in Benghazi coming so soon before the assault on Tripoli I find intriguing. I wonder if the rumors were perhaps it true - Britain and America had in fact intercepted communications suggesting he did not like the coming denouement and had communications with the Libyan Government and Britain instructed the TNC to eliminate him.

Perhaps NATO will need to maintain its warplanes over the skies of Libya for many months to come.

 

[little grey rabbit]

Are we not all human?

If you see a woman being attacked by men do you just ignore it because it's not for "you" to decide who is right or wrong in the situation?

Dunno, when Vladimir Putin looks you in the eye and says what you are doing is atrocious, that ought to be an enormous wake-up call.

You even managed to shock Vladimir Putin!

 

[little grey rabbit]

Good catch.

Good points. Then again there are people who believe that this is a chance for them to be free. The French Revolution was horrific. The Guillotine didn't slow down until it had killed a lot of people including the original leaders of the revolution. I honestly don't know.

OK, lets consider the French Revolution.

First there was the execution of the Gaddafi figure
Then there was the period of millennial utopianism that managed to kill the original leaders
Then there was the Thermidor reaction which killed all the millennial utopianists.
Then very quickly along came Napoleon who proceeded to conscript the whole nation into his army, until eventually marching on Moscow and watching the Grand Army perish in the Belarussian snows and the next year Cossacks to parade down the avenues of Paris.
And the year after that back came the Bourbons.

Of course as bad as the French revolution was, it doesn't compare to the Russian revolution.

I am something of a pessimist when it comes to the future of Libya, but I pray it won't be as bad as the French Revolution. Surely the Libyans have suffered enough.

 

[RandFan]

Dunno, when Vladimir Putin looks you in the eye and says what you are doing is atrocious, that ought to be an enormous wake-up call.

You even managed to shock Vladimir Putin!

And his shock wasn't political? Let me be clear. I don't claim that the actions are good. I don't think the world is so black and white.

From another post.

It is always difficult for me to understand how people perform these kinds of calculus.

Not me. Philosophers of mind working with cognitive scientists and understand it quite well. Humans have multiple modules making different calculations. Their intuitions shaped by culture, ideology and what they deem as priority help the brain to determine which of the calculations it will use.

 

[RandFan]

OK, lets consider the French Revolution.

First there was the execution of the Gaddafi figure
Then there was the period of millennial utopianism that managed to kill the original leaders
Then there was the Thermidor reaction which killed all the millennial utopianists.
Then very quickly along came Napoleon who proceeded to conscript the whole nation into his army, until eventually marching on Moscow and watching the Grand Army perish in the Belarussian snows and the next year Cossacks to parade down the avenues of Paris.
And the year after that back came the Bourbons.

Of course as bad as the French revolution was, it doesn't compare to the Russian revolution.

I am something of a pessimist when it comes to the future of Libya, but I pray it won't be as bad as the French Revolution. Surely the Libyans have suffered enough.

I can't find anything to object to. But then I'm not sure what point you are making in relation to the discussion.

 

[little grey rabbit]

And his shock wasn't political?

Unlike George Bush I make no claim to look into the soul of Vladimir Putin. But this has every air of sincerity to me

Does this domestic conflict require intervention from outside? After all, there are many other ugly regimes in the world. Should we meddle in all domestic clashes? Look elsewhere in Africa – what has been going on in Somalia for many years? Why shouldn’t we try to restore order there? And there are other countries, too. Should we use bombs and missiles on them? Why not give their nations the chance to settle it all on their own? Much has been said about a ban on flights over Libya. So far so good – but what has happened to the ban when Gaddafi’s palaces are air-raided every night? They say they don’t mean to kill him, but why bomb his palaces then – to get rid of mice, perhaps? Every raid certainly takes a toll of lives. Innocent civilians are dying while Gaddafi has long taken refuge in a shelter.

Many said that they were not interested in Gaddafi’s death. Now, certain officials say out loud that they want Gaddafi killed. Did anyone authorise such pronouncements? Has any court condemned him to death? Who can assume the right to kill a man, however bad he might be? Everyone keeps silent on this. And what does the resolution on Libya say? Just read it: it calls on everyone to do anything they like in Libya.

I repeat: at first, the issue concerned only the ban on flights over Libya. Now, its entire infrastructure is being ruined as one of the belligerents advances under air protection. It will go on nonstop. As I see it, we should act responsibly, in compliance with the international law and with consideration for civilians. Meanwhile, the so-called civilised community attacks a small country and destroys its infrastructure, created by many generations’ efforts. I don’t know whether this is good or bad but I don’t like it.

Not me. Philosophers of mind working with cognitive scientists and understand it quite well. Humans have multiple modules making different calculations. Their intuitions shaped by culture, ideology and what they deem as priority help the brain to determine which of the calculations it will use.

That's marvellous. I have known a few scientists in my time and have only limited respect for them, but perhaps cognitive scientists may be a cut above the rest.

So what are the multiple modules we can call on for deciding if 100 000 dead Iraqi civilians is a good trade off for the removal of Saddam Hussein and how do we evaluate other course of action that could have been taken?

 

[RandFan]

Unlike George Bush I make no claim to look into the soul of Vladimir Putin. But this has every air of sincerity to me.

I can respect that but I find that far from compelling and I'm not sure why you do. But, such is the nature of the human mind. FWIW: Putin has his own imperialist past. Chechnya. Where was he concern then? And why no concern for the People of Libya? Look, I'll concede the ad hominem. That Putin was involved in a bloody war in Chechnya doesn't obviate his arguments. But I'm not impressed. Why do you think anyone should care about Putin's opinion? His opinion seems to me to be born of past political ties.

That's marvellous. I have known a few scientists in my time and have only limited respect for them, but perhaps cognitive scientists may be a cut above the rest.

So what are the multiple modules we can call on for deciding if 100 000 dead Iraqi civilians is a good trade off for the removal of Saddam Hussein and how do we evaluate other course of action that could have been taken?

First, let me make clear I don't even begin to be able to say definitively what was right or wrong in this case. The lying about WMD and obfuscation in general stole from the American people the opportunity to judge the propriety of the war. Further, the trampling on of our principles, rendition, torture, war crimes, for that I condemn Bush et al and sincerely wish the group would be tried at the Hague.

In any event, there is no name that I know of but what you ask is not possible. We can's accurately model human suffering and well being with and without a French revolution to adequately make a determination as to which was the correct choice. Perhaps some day we will but it's unlikely given the nature of complex systems and inherent chaos in such systems.

Iraq? It was a huge waste of money and life. Hindsight? I sure as hell find it hard to justify.

Do you have a need to be able to remove any and all moral ambiguity from the world? Is it comforting for you to be able to identify the demons and heroes? Or are you simply trying to identify folly from prudent action? Do you truly care about each and every unnecessary taking of human life or only those that are the result of political actions you deem wrong?

 

[Caustic Logic]

The literature says there are two kinds of people who use all of these tactics. The first is people are trying to protect themselves from harm, and in that context the tactics are called "defense mechanisms".

I'm going with that one, not to patronize the forum community. And I do acknowledge I've been on the attack, so defensiveness is to be expected. I hope it made someone squeamish and uncomfortable, and they're able to parse that into something useful. Learning, we used to call it. No one needs to make a public display of seriously engaging this new knowledge, but I wouldn't complain.

And I'm suddenly much more receptive to dismissals. Seriously, what else is so totally whack about questioning this war that it's not worth a worm's fart to consider?

An excellent post, worthy of another read, in a bit. Random point to respond to:

Article I of the "constitution" of the Transitional National Council establishes Islam as the official state religion and shariah las the foundation for all law. The same thing happened in Afghanistan, so no surprise that our pretense about global jihad against shariah law by the United States has done the exact opposite: enshrined shariah as the law of their land.

To be fair, that's all provisional. It may or may not hold in the new nation. In fact, it probably won't. The promise of Sharia was important to keep the Islamists, veryy good (and brutal and criminal) fighters.

Even when there were whispers that Islamists - a real problem - might be behind Abdel Fateh Younes' killing, the NTC didn't say that. At the time, they moved against what they considered traitors secretly supporting Gaddafi.

I always hoped there were some, and Yones was one, but this whole episode seems to have wiped that all out, quite conveniently. Now the Islamists are fighting for Sharia in Tripoli, but soon, they will be turned on and hunted down if they don't surrender to the bright neo-liberal free-market future. IMF loans, usury, infidels stealing resources, etc.

 

[Eddie Dane]

Little Gray Rabbit,

All your posts in this thread are understandable and seem to have internal and consistent logic.
Have you given up trolling altogether or are you making an exception for this particular topic?

 

[tourmaline]

So what are the multiple modules we can call on for deciding if 100 000 dead Iraqi civilians is a good trade off for the removal of Saddam Hussein and how do we evaluate other course of action that could have been taken?

Before the invasion it was either 100k terrorists/Ba'ath partiers or 100k American civilians and they attacked us first and USA! USA1 USA!.

Other courses of action would have been to let Saddam et al wither like Cuba, better?

But then Cuba doesnt have much natural resources or as much geopolitical import. Seems like our stated goals/values are always contradicted with our actions.

Hind sight is always 20/20; we could have not supported a dictator (that is diametrically opposed to our values of freedom and democracy) in an alliance of convenience from the start.

But hey, those boogymen (communists, Islamic fundamentalists, etc) need to be put in their place and given a good what-for. _{USA! USA1}

 

[Skeptic]

A thuggish dictator falls, and the usual suspects are lamenting his demise. Now isn't that a surprise.

First the criminal imperialists came for the lunatic thuggish dictators, and I did nothing, because I was not a lunatic thuggish dictator.

Of course, if the lunatic dictator does not fall, the same folks claim it's the "criminal imperialists" who are keeping him in power.

 

[geni]

that was not for you or me to decide.

Why not? Systems of goverment are not so sacred that individuals may not judge them.

 

[geni]

First the criminal imperialists came for the lunatic thuggish dictators, and I did nothing, because I was not a lunatic thuggish dictator.

Thuggish? No no that won't do at all. You appear to have got your terms mixed up. "Thuggish" generaly only refers to dictators who are physically imposing.

Of course, if the lunatic dictator does not fall, the same folks claim it's the "criminal imperialists" who are keeping him in power.

Well in fairness you are going to have a hard time arguing that Saudi Arabia isn't keeping Hamad ibn Isa Al Khalifa in power.

 

[Merko]

However Libya was not a mess before intervention

What? You seem to believe that the Libyan revolution started with outside intervention. It did not. By the time anyone intervened, the country was already split in half between Gadaffi and the rebels.

Memory is apparently short.

 

[WildCat]

Personaly, I am not lamenting the fall of that guy, i am lamenting that somehow when we "free" or "help free" an opressed population from a dictator lately it always seems to be from countries with oil, while the country without oil with as bad or even worst dictator , well, are seemingly ignored.

Tell us all about the oil deposits in Bosnia, Afghanistan, Panama, and Grenada.

 

[Toke]

Personaly, I am not lamenting the fall of that guy, I am lamenting that somehow when we "free" or "help free" an oppressed population from a dictator lately it always seems to be from countries with oil, while the country without oil with as bad or even worst dictator , well, are seemingly ignored.

Yes, the pattern does make the whole humanitarian aspect look a bit hollow.

 

[geni]

What? You seem to believe that the Libyan revolution started with outside intervention. It did not. By the time anyone intervened, the country was already split in half between Gadaffi and the rebels.

Memory is apparently short.

In fairness that issue appeared to be about to resolve itself fairly quickly.