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Richard Gage Blueprint for Truth Rebuttals on YouTube by Chris Mohr

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Humpty-Dumpty sat on a wall, and fell to the ground, and broke beyond repair.

What's the problem with that logic? Now, I am no physicist, but it seems right to me.....

:dl:

Feeding children lies ain't ever a good thing when they almost always come to realize the bubble bursting truth.
 
So things never break when they fall or if they do break they can always be fixed?

Stop bogarting that stuff and share.
 
Video 18 and Chandler

Video 18 has been analyzed and refuted by somebody with the expertise physics.

The only thing in the video you do, is speculating without calculations or simulations and without expertise.

So i really dont understand why you dont listen to him?

Did you watched all the video's of chandler? Lets do that first.

This was the answer of nist on your question.

NIST: "During Stage 2, the north face descended essentially in free fall, indicating negligible support from the structure below. This is consistent with the structural analysis model which showed the exterior columns buckling and losing their capacity to support the loads from the structure above."

They are doing the same like you are, they dont take the free fall serious, and just say it was happen thanks to the buckling. You dont see calculations, you dont see any simulations.

THis is what we call no science.

Let me ask why NIST, in every report of wtc 7 is saying, the three stage analysis is consistent with physical principles. And at the final report, after they admit freefall, they removed the sentence: "consistent with physical principles"

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7511810#post7511810
Some weird twists here, maybe mrkinnies and others will understand better with a little history. I decided to use my journalistic skills to investigate Richard Gage's CD theories. I got technical help from a physics chat room, 14 physicists I talked to personally as well as personal contacts with structural engineers, NIST people and other scientists. I also contacted CD advocates and got personal answers to my questions from Kevin Ryan, Richard Gage, David Chandler, Tom Sullivan, and several lesser-known locals on the CD side. I got huge help from these jref threads, where you'll find direct help to me from engineers, physicists, general science folks, foundry workers, firefighters and fire safety experts, dust analysts, heavy equipment operators, chemists, you name it. I put together all the information into a coherent and respectful YouTube format with abundant visual examples so laypeople like myself could understand the arguments.

What's surreal is the belief that people on this thread believe me or that I carry some kind of authority. They believe me in part because they helped me formulate these YouTube videos. They corrected me dozens of times when my reportage was inaccurate. They're the experts, not me. Do you think Tri believes me because he thinks I'm an authority? HE'S the authority, not me!!

Mrkinnies, you asked me a question and I tried to answer it. Other people on this thread are much, much more qualified to answer these questions.

As for David Chandler's attack video against me personally (you think "pearls before swine" is a rebuttal??), I most definitely watched very carefully and corrected the mistakes he uncovered. The new video 18 takes every single legitimate error he caught into account. I'm glad he caught them.

I have no respect for Chandler personally however. The 9/11 Truth people by definition have no right to say that I am unqualified to even talk about this. That decision has been made by the many people who agree with the natural collapse theory. If any real scientists came to me and said look, Chris, you just don't get it, you're distorting our arguments and muddying the waters with your ignorance, I would have said OK, I won't put these out because it wouldn't help anyone. Some very harsh critical people have gone over my YouTubes and told me they are very good to excellent.

David Chandler found some mistakes on video 18 take one, which I corrected. He then concludes that no one should take anything I say seriously. All 235 reasons tossed out the window, worthless because Chris is a hopeless incompetent. I took his corrections and fixed my video, but don't talk to me any further about the great David Chandler. He adds nothing to the debate when he trashes me personally.

As for NIST's explanation of the freefall collapse in stage two, I too was unsatisfied with what they said. I kept asking, can buckling columns really bring a collapsing building to 100% freefall? My video takes the question very, very seriously, and deals with it more thoroughly by bringing in the issue of leveraging/torquing. Unlike David Chandler, my "system" is the top of the north perimeter wall which was the only part whose collapse speed was measured, and anything happening outside that "system" can bring leveraging and torquing into the system. My hypothesis is that somewhere inside the building, something holding onto the outer perimeter wall was attached to something else inside the building or even on another side of the building for a couple seconds. Anything collapsing more slowly inside anywhere becomes the pivot to leverage a faster collapse on the north perimeter wall.
 
It's a question of obervation again Chris. It takes about two seconds to say ' One one thousand, two one thousand' Now look at the attached video and say 'one one thousand ' when the leftmost corner column of the North face collapses and say 'two one thousand' when the rightmost corner column collapses. Not easy is it ? Sorry MrKinnies for jumping in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD06SAf0p9A collapse WTC71
Bill,

Before I respond to anything you say, you owe an apology for what you said about Firefighter Miller. I'll say it again, it was sickening. I've carried on respectful dialogues with a lot of people who oppose my theories. So far I have stopped talking to 6 neo-Nazis who have gone after me in extremely nasty ways, one truly insane religious person who has accused me of being a false prophet, one CD believer and engineer who saw my video #8 (see about 7:50 into http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7OxQXuMPs4&feature=related) and declared that the boots-on-the-ground FDNY firefighter I found through firefighters' blogs who directly testified about the temperatures in the debris pile was "either psy-op or deluded," and David Chandler for his "pearls before swine" attack. Many people have attacked me personally and I've not cut them off. I've been patient and respectful to people who have advocated mininukes, death rays, aliens, you name it. But tolerant as I am, I'm not going to sit still and let you personally trash Firefighter Miller unless you have proof he has committed espionage against his own firefighting brotherhood as well as the people of this country.

You might want to look at the rest of my video #8 and listen to what my FDNY eyewitness said a few minutes later about firefighters and how they would NEVER be afraid to speak out if they suspected bombs were secretly planted in the building. "Psy-op or deluded?" I'm not talking to the guy who said that any more.

I await your response, Bill.
 
Chris, the deeper you get into 9/11 Truth, the more problematic its champions appear.

There IS a very good reason why people who hold a mix of irrational and unscientific beliefs coupled with arrogance and varying degrees of paranoia are not the healthiest functioning minds around.

There is definitely something disquieting about the members of this cult. Some are just not nice people at all, some are difficult personalities..some are highly delusional.

I predict, once again, that you will not get a satisfactory response from Bill Smith. He just isn't interested in having a respectful, rational discussion with you. He wants something else - and I don't really care what it is, which is why I have him on ignore.
 
...Unlike David Chandler, my "system" is the top of the north perimeter wall which was the only part whose collapse speed was measured, and anything happening outside that "system" can bring leveraging and torquing into the system....
One irony being that D Chandler introduced the "systems" concept into the debate.

...and got the system boundary wrong.
...and those of us who are "systems thinkers" spotted the error.

Lesson Or "Moral of the Story":
If you are introducing a concept or model to establish your superior understanding of something - you had better get your own use of the concept right. :rolleyes:
 
Some weird twists here, maybe mrkinnies and others will understand better with a little history. I decided to use my journalistic skills to investigate Richard Gage's CD theories. I got technical help from a physics chat room, 14 physicists I talked to personally as well as personal contacts with structural engineers, NIST people and other scientists. I also contacted CD advocates and got personal answers to my questions from Kevin Ryan, Richard Gage, David Chandler, Tom Sullivan, and several lesser-known locals on the CD side. I got huge help from these jref threads, where you'll find direct help to me from engineers, physicists, general science folks, foundry workers, firefighters and fire safety experts, dust analysts, heavy equipment operators, chemists, you name it. I put together all the information into a coherent and respectful YouTube format with abundant visual examples so laypeople like myself could understand the arguments.

What's surreal is the belief that people on this thread believe me or that I carry some kind of authority. They believe me in part because they helped me formulate these YouTube videos. They corrected me dozens of times when my reportage was inaccurate. They're the experts, not me. Do you think Tri believes me because he thinks I'm an authority? HE'S the authority, not me!!

Mrkinnies, you asked me a question and I tried to answer it. Other people on this thread are much, much more qualified to answer these questions.

As for David Chandler's attack video against me personally (you think "pearls before swine" is a rebuttal??), I most definitely watched very carefully and corrected the mistakes he uncovered. The new video 18 takes every single legitimate error he caught into account. I'm glad he caught them.

I have no respect for Chandler personally however. The 9/11 Truth people by definition have no right to say that I am unqualified to even talk about this. That decision has been made by the many people who agree with the natural collapse theory. If any real scientists came to me and said look, Chris, you just don't get it, you're distorting our arguments and muddying the waters with your ignorance, I would have said OK, I won't put these out because it wouldn't help anyone. Some very harsh critical people have gone over my YouTubes and told me they are very good to excellent.

David Chandler found some mistakes on video 18 take one, which I corrected. He then concludes that no one should take anything I say seriously. All 235 reasons tossed out the window, worthless because Chris is a hopeless incompetent. I took his corrections and fixed my video, but don't talk to me any further about the great David Chandler. He adds nothing to the debate when he trashes me personally.

As for NIST's explanation of the freefall collapse in stage two, I too was unsatisfied with what they said. I kept asking, can buckling columns really bring a collapsing building to 100% freefall? My video takes the question very, very seriously, and deals with it more thoroughly by bringing in the issue of leveraging/torquing. Unlike David Chandler, my "system" is the top of the north perimeter wall which was the only part whose collapse speed was measured, and anything happening outside that "system" can bring leveraging and torquing into the system. My hypothesis is that somewhere inside the building, something holding onto the outer perimeter wall was attached to something else inside the building or even on another side of the building for a couple seconds. Anything collapsing more slowly inside anywhere becomes the pivot to leverage a faster collapse on the north perimeter wall.

All who saw the video of the WTC 7 collapse were astonished by how quickly it fell. After years of study NIST stated that indeed a period of freefall had taken place. Freefall cannot take place without in place resistance being totally removed. The failure of one column cannot possibly remove resistance building WIDE for multiple floors.

Chris

Please explain how damage expanded from one focal point in a parallel plane as large as the perimeter of WTC 7 to damage the entire plane of resistance, 46 times? The pancake scenario has been tossed has it not?
 
All who saw the video of the WTC 7 collapse were astonished by how quickly it fell. After years of study NIST stated that indeed a period of freefall had taken place. Freefall cannot take place without in place resistance being totally removed. The failure of one column cannot possibly remove resistance building WIDE for multiple floors.

Chris

Please explain how damage expanded from one focal point in a parallel plane as large as the perimeter of WTC 7 to damage the entire plane of resistance, 46 times? The pancake scenario has been tossed has it not?
46 times? We had freefall for only 8 floors on one perimeter wall. How do you get 46? Also, do you deny that freefall means no NET resistance, do you keep insisting that it means no resistance at all?
 
46 times? We had freefall for only 8 floors on one perimeter wall. How do you get 46? Also, do you deny that freefall means no NET resistance, do you keep insisting that it means no resistance at all?

The truther freefall meme relies on a misunderstanding of collapse mechanics, so a person who is committed to the 'freefall = CD' idea cannot think outside that box.

The weirdest part to me is that people recite these memes but do not contemplate how the theory is impossible since there were no explosions captured at the moment when the building collapsed.

No explosives definitely DOES mean no explosive controlled demolition.
 
All who saw the video of the WTC 7 collapse were astonished by how quickly it fell. After years of study NIST stated that indeed a period of freefall had taken place. Freefall cannot take place without in place resistance being totally removed. The failure of one column cannot possibly remove resistance building WIDE for multiple floors.

more personal incredulity. repeating a lie does not make it true.

Chris

Please explain how damage expanded from one focal point in a parallel plane as large as the perimeter of WTC 7 to damage the entire plane of resistance, 46 times? The pancake scenario has been tossed has it not?

Do you want to try that one again? for instance by explaining what (whatever it is you are claiming) could not happen? Please list all assumptions made and show working. If YOU make an assertion, YOU have to prove it, not us disprove it.
 
Bill,

Before I respond to anything you say, you owe an apology for what you said about Firefighter Miller. I'll say it again, it was sickening. I've carried on respectful dialogues with a lot of people who oppose my theories. So far I have stopped talking to 6 neo-Nazis who have gone after me in extremely nasty ways, one truly insane religious person who has accused me of being a false prophet, one CD believer and engineer who saw my video #8 (see about 7:50 into http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7OxQXuMPs4&feature=related) and declared that the boots-on-the-ground FDNY firefighter I found through firefighters' blogs who directly testified about the temperatures in the debris pile was "either psy-op or deluded," and David Chandler for his "pearls before swine" attack. Many people have attacked me personally and I've not cut them off. I've been patient and respectful to people who have advocated mininukes, death rays, aliens, you name it. But tolerant as I am, I'm not going to sit still and let you personally trash Firefighter Miller unless you have proof he has committed espionage against his own firefighting brotherhood as well as the people of this country.

You might want to look at the rest of my video #8 and listen to what my FDNY eyewitness said a few minutes later about firefighters and how they would NEVER be afraid to speak out if they suspected bombs were secretly planted in the building. "Psy-op or deluded?" I'm not talking to the guy who said that any more.

I await your response, Bill.

I am perfectly willing to withdraw the subjective part of my opinion about firefighter Miller's atatement where I gave my own take on his body language. That may have been a bit off colour and if it upset you I am genuinely sorry about that. I think you have worked hard to make all the NIST beans to stack up and I give you respect for that whether or not I agree with the conclusions.
 
My hypothesis is that somewhere inside the building, something holding onto the outer perimeter wall was attached to something else inside the building or even on another side of the building for a couple seconds. Anything collapsing more slowly inside anywhere becomes the pivot to leverage a faster collapse on the north perimeter wall.

hypothesis |hīˈpäθəsis|
noun ( pl. -ses |-ˌsēz|)
a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation : professional astronomers attacked him for popularizing an unconfirmed hypothesis.
• Philosophy a proposition made as a basis for reasoning, without any assumption of its truth.
ORIGIN late 16th cent.: via late Latin from Greek hupothesis ‘foundation,’ from hupo ‘under’ + thesis ‘placing.’


Well I'm glad you agree that your rebuttal is based on hypotheses.

I asked you those questions because I feel you haven't asked them. And if you don't put the correct questions in then you won't get the right answers out. Since I don't know what you asked your expert friends, I cannot gauge whether what you say is correct or not.

And for someone claiming to have used experts to develop the arguments in your favour, the answer you gave yesterday proved none of this because it was so lame and weak especially when you used phrases like "The south face probably had weaker columns" or "I'm just guessing that perhaps the south perimeter columns collapsed next" or "I am guessing it wouldn't look as "clean" during the collapse".

You are the one presenting this rebuttal so you need to take responsibility for the claims you make. Don't start hiding behind the experts you allegedly spoke to.

There's really no point in saying anything else.
 
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Some weird twists here, maybe mrkinnies and others will understand better with a little history. I decided to use my journalistic skills to investigate Richard Gage's CD theories. I got technical help from a physics chat room, 14 physicists I talked to personally as well as personal contacts with structural engineers, NIST people and other scientists. I also contacted CD advocates and got personal answers to my questions from Kevin Ryan, Richard Gage, David Chandler, Tom Sullivan, and several lesser-known locals on the CD side. I got huge help from these jref threads, where you'll find direct help to me from engineers, physicists, general science folks, foundry workers, firefighters and fire safety experts, dust analysts, heavy equipment operators, chemists, you name it. I put together all the information into a coherent and respectful YouTube format with abundant visual examples so laypeople like myself could understand the arguments.

What's surreal is the belief that people on this thread believe me or that I carry some kind of authority. They believe me in part because they helped me formulate these YouTube videos. They corrected me dozens of times when my reportage was inaccurate. They're the experts, not me. Do you think Tri believes me because he thinks I'm an authority? HE'S the authority, not me!!

Mrkinnies, you asked me a question and I tried to answer it. Other people on this thread are much, much more qualified to answer these questions.

As for David Chandler's attack video against me personally (you think "pearls before swine" is a rebuttal??), I most definitely watched very carefully and corrected the mistakes he uncovered. The new video 18 takes every single legitimate error he caught into account. I'm glad he caught them.

I have no respect for Chandler personally however. The 9/11 Truth people by definition have no right to say that I am unqualified to even talk about this. That decision has been made by the many people who agree with the natural collapse theory. If any real scientists came to me and said look, Chris, you just don't get it, you're distorting our arguments and muddying the waters with your ignorance, I would have said OK, I won't put these out because it wouldn't help anyone. Some very harsh critical people have gone over my YouTubes and told me they are very good to excellent.

David Chandler found some mistakes on video 18 take one, which I corrected. He then concludes that no one should take anything I say seriously. All 235 reasons tossed out the window, worthless because Chris is a hopeless incompetent. I took his corrections and fixed my video, but don't talk to me any further about the great David Chandler. He adds nothing to the debate when he trashes me personally.

As for NIST's explanation of the freefall collapse in stage two, I too was unsatisfied with what they said. I kept asking, can buckling columns really bring a collapsing building to 100% freefall? My video takes the question very, very seriously, and deals with it more thoroughly by bringing in the issue of leveraging/torquing. Unlike David Chandler, my "system" is the top of the north perimeter wall which was the only part whose collapse speed was measured, and anything happening outside that "system" can bring leveraging and torquing into the system. My hypothesis is that somewhere inside the building, something holding onto the outer perimeter wall was attached to something else inside the building or even on another side of the building for a couple seconds. Anything collapsing more slowly inside anywhere becomes the pivot to leverage a faster collapse on the north perimeter wall.

When I think of this leveraging scanario I am always reminded of Baron Munchausen who lifted himself and his horse out of a marsh by oulling his own hair upwards. Just in reverse.
 
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One irony being that D Chandler introduced the "systems" concept into the debate.

...and got the system boundary wrong.
...and those of us who are "systems thinkers" spotted the error.

Lesson Or "Moral of the Story":
If you are introducing a concept or model to establish your superior understanding of something - you had better get your own use of the concept right. :rolleyes:

And there is more...

Remember this gem from Chandler?

Figure 3: Consider the upper section of the building to be a block of weight mg. Since the acceleration of the block is measured to be downward at 0.64g, the net force acting on it must be 0.64mg. The gravitational force is mg, so the upward normal force must be 0.36mg. The upper and lower sections of the building exert equal but opposite forces on each other, so the load on the lower section of the building is 36% of the weight of the upper block.

Explicitly invoking Newton's Third Law puts this result in another light. Since the forces in the interaction are equal and opposite, the falling block exerts a force of only 36% of its weight on the lower section of the building. In other words, as long as the falling block is accelerating downward we have the counter-intuitive result that the force it exerts on the lower section of the building is significantly less than its static weight. It is difficult to imagine how an upper block exerting a force of only 36% of its static weight could crush the larger, stronger, undamaged lower section of the building to the ground, when the building, at any level, was designed to support several times the weight above it. Assuming a safety factor of between 3 and 5 [12], the observed acceleration implies that close to 90% of the strength of the lower section of the building must have been eliminated by forces other than the supposed "pile driver," suggesting that some sort of controlled demolition was at work.


So he uses the average acceleration to compute a normal force and then based on the static weight of the block concludes that it could not have fallen.....and he does this in a situation that is obviously a dynamic one and not a static one.

How anyone gives this guy credibility after an error like that is beyond me...Chandler should stick to teaching basic High School physics...
 
When I think of this leveraging scanario I am always reminded of Baron Munchausen who lifted himself and his horse out of a marsh by oulling his own hair upwards. Just in reverse.
Isn't it ironic that you should quote this example of error sandwiched between a couple of posts identifying D Chandlers error of system boundary.

Wish I'd thought to use it to illustrate Chandler's identical error.
 
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And there is more...

Remember this gem from Chandler?..
Yes - but I disagree with your next comment:
...Chandler should stick to teaching basic High School physics...
... he should be barred from teaching physics.

First rule of the teacher from way back in my youth:
"The teacher must know that which he would teach."
...that effectively disqualifies Chandler.
 
Isn't it ironic that you should quote this example of error sandwiched between a couple of posts identifying D Chandlers error of system boundary.

Wish I'd thought to use it to illustrate Chandler's identical error.

Write a short piece using the Munchausen example that illustrates your point.
 
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