Merged Lockerbie bomber alive after 9 months

[Nogbad]

Megrahi was released on compassionate grounds he did not escape. This does not change whether it is Gadaffi or the NTC that are in charge. A spokesman for the Council when asked about Megrahi said that of all the things on the to do list to get Libya up and running Megrahi doesn't even make the list.

It seems improbable that the facilities, drugs and care Megrahi has received since returning to Libya will be available to him. On last sighting he was in a wheelchair and looked thin and frail. It also seems improbable that he would survive another trial or even be able to attend.

More importantly, perhaps the NTC may be able to unearth some intelligence as to whether it was Gadaffi, Abu Nidal working for Gadaffi, Abu Nidal working for Iran or some other combination that carried out the bombing. If Megrahi had any role it was as a bit player. The real culprits have never been collared. If it was Abu Nidal he is dead.

 

[CTB]

Last rumour I caught hold of was that he's at his parents' house, which I assume to be in Libya.

I suspect that Libyan folks, in general, have more to worry about at the moment right now than numpties like us arguing the toss.



CTB

 

[Rolfe]

If Megrahi had any role it was as a bit player.

I don't entirely get that comment. How do you think Megrahi being involved in any way at all squares with the evidence?

Maybe this ought to be a subject for a different thread, but I'm genuinely curious to know what possible reading of the evidence can characterise Megrahi as a "bit player", in your view.

Rolfe.

 

[Nogbad]

I don't entirely get that comment. How do you think Megrahi being involved in any way at all squares with the evidence?

Maybe this ought to be a subject for a different thread, but I'm genuinely curious to know what possible reading of the evidence can characterise Megrahi as a "bit player", in your view.

Rolfe.

Say, for sake of argument, Megrahi was told to buy a suitcase and some clothes and pass them on to another person, there would have been no requirement for him to know what any of this was for. This would be normal security service practice. During the Cold War agents rarely had a full picture of any operation they were tasked with for obvious reasons. Gadaffi and his Government were very much of the Cold War vintage. If the bombing was ordered by Gadaffi then a number of strands would have drawn together but no more than a couple of people at the top would have had the whole picture. People on the ground would only have known they had orders to do a specific task.

That said, I'm not convinced Megrahi was involved. I think he stood a near racing certainty of winning his appeal if it had gone ahead.

Nevertheless, people planned, made the bomb and planted it. I don't think any of these people have been positively identified yet. The transfer of large sums of cash to Abu Nidal days after the bombing would suggest he had a hand in it but this is circumstantial not definitive evidence. It also suggests that although Abu Nidal may be dead he was just a mercenary and the body or Government that paid him are still around. I think if people were to get too fixated about Megrahi the primary culprits will once again slip away out of sight. Perhaps that is what is wanted although I'm not much for conspiracies.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Per what CTB says and an e-mail I just got:

Khaled Elmegarhi posted in Justice For Al-Megrahi.

Khaled Elmegarhi 5:49pm Aug 27
Statement from the son of Abdelbaset al-Megrahi

My father's general health is very bad. Sometimes he is in a coma. The family is trying to help him to eat at least a little food.
We move him to hospital and his parent’s house. He is still confined to his bed, and my mother and his sister are helping him.
All our house telephones out of order. I personally tried to get in touch with the Drug Store to get his regular daily use of medicine. Thieves have stolen most of his medicine.

PLEASE I BEG YOU GIVE MY FATHER CHANCE TO GOD FACE HIS DESTINY AND OUR GOD THE REMAINING OF HIS LIFE IN PEACE.

SON KHALED

TRIPOLI 27-08-2011

View Post on Facebook ·

Thank you Khaled for this information about your father Abdelbaset al-Megrahi. I am publicising your statement.

Patrick Haseldine

 

[Bunntamas]

That's actually pretty funny!

Rolfe.

Yes. Well, as I've said before.. laughter, tears ...thin line.

 

[Bunntamas]

It seems improbable that the facilities, drugs and care Megrahi has received since returning to Libya will be available to him.

Beg to differ with you there. Wonder where those Libyan Dr.'s medical records really came from....

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2011/0826/1224303001756.html?via=rel

On last sighting he was in a wheelchair and looked thin and frail. It also seems improbable that he would survive another trial or even be able to attend.

And prior to above noted "sightings" he was also sighted touring in a Ferrari and Range Rover the construction of his new home (in addition to the posh residence to which he was released). Wonder how posh the former and new residence is/are now, and/ or if the new residence is where he is now. My guess is he is scurrying like the rat / cockroach that he is, along with his master in holes and tunnels, trying to find a way out of Tripoli, lest his wheel chair be wheeled aboard a flight back to Scotland. OH MY.. whatever will Kenny do then? HAHAHAHA. Betcha Kenny is shakin' in his wellies these days about that.

More importantly, perhaps the NTC may be able to unearth some intelligence as to whether it was Gadaffi, Abu Nidal working for Gadaffi, Abu Nidal working for Iran or some other combination that carried out the bombing. If Megrahi had any role it was as a bit player. The real culprits have never been collared. If it was Abu Nidal he is dead.

You have some catching up to do. The whole crux of this situation is that the Iranians paid for it, but the people he paid got busted in the Autumn Leaves sting, so they tossed the hot potato to the Libyans, who were all to happy to take the bomb and plant it, blow up PA103, and after years of sanctions, provide a pathetic apology for agents of the government's (aka Megrahi and Fimah) actions. End result, Trial, and conviction of Megrahi. Who now LIVES two years after compassionate realease based on 3 months to live... "Scot Free".
All I can say is I hope the Libyan people get their freedom, and that the former Lyban regime, and all their employees get their final and just results / karma... call it what you may, for all of the pain, suffering, and mass murders of Libyans, victims of PA103, Labelle Discotech, and other nations over the past 40+ years for which they are responsible.
The Libyan Regime, INCLUDING MEGRAHI have spent far to much of their victims' and the word's time and money.

It is high time we stop wasting time on these pathetic wastes of oxygen.
~B.

 

[Bunntamas]

Per what CTB says and an e-mail I just got:


View Post on Facebook ·

Thank you Khaled for this information about your father Abdelbaset al-Megrahi. I am publicising your statement.

Patrick Haseldine

And if you are so moronic to belive that statement, (as well as any other former Libyan regime member's statement) I have an ocean front property in the middle of the Libyan desert, along with Saif's plans for tourism to sell you as well as a complete four star room (including a window!) at Abu Salim. AND as an added bonus, you will be provided with a tour of the tunnels, cracks and crevices in which the former Libyan reigime (aka mass murderers, rats, cockroaches) hid until they were hunted down just like Sadam. Climb aboard... the love boat awaits you!!!

 

[Bunntamas]

PLEASE I BEG YOU GIVE MY FATHER CHANCE TO GOD FACE HIS DESTINY AND OUR GOD THE REMAINING OF HIS LIFE IN PEACE.

Yeah, wish my father were still alive to have a destiny. Sadly your father took my father's destiny. No doubt your father will indeed face his destiny in front of God. We've all been waiting far too long for that to happen. Sorry you were born unto your disgusting father's path. I pray you may see the wreckage your father and his masters created, and that you may create something positive in your life that is different from your father's, that does not include mass murder.

 

[trustbutverify]

Jalil.

Rolfe.

Could you give me a little more than that please?

 

[Rolfe]

Per what CTB says and an e-mail I just got:

View Post on Facebook ·

Thank you Khaled for this information about your father Abdelbaset al-Megrahi. I am publicising your statement.

Patrick Haseldine

To a limited extent I have to agree with Bunntamas. While Megrahi's health is clearly very poor, as anyone who saw him on TV in July can easily infer from his gaunt appearance, it is also true that dire medical bulletins about him have tended to appear whenever the affair takes another turn through the news headlines.

Also, Patrick Haseldine is a raving nutcase, who should be on permanent blanket global ignore, no matter if he is declaring rain to be wet.

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

Say, for sake of argument, Megrahi was told to buy a suitcase and some clothes and pass them on to another person, there would have been no requirement for him to know what any of this was for. This would be normal security service practice. During the Cold War agents rarely had a full picture of any operation they were tasked with for obvious reasons. Gadaffi and his Government were very much of the Cold War vintage. If the bombing was ordered by Gadaffi then a number of strands would have drawn together but no more than a couple of people at the top would have had the whole picture. People on the ground would only have known they had orders to do a specific task.

That said, I'm not convinced Megrahi was involved. I think he stood a near racing certainty of winning his appeal if it had gone ahead.

Nevertheless, people planned, made the bomb and planted it. I don't think any of these people have been positively identified yet. The transfer of large sums of cash to Abu Nidal days after the bombing would suggest he had a hand in it but this is circumstantial not definitive evidence. It also suggests that although Abu Nidal may be dead he was just a mercenary and the body or Government that paid him are still around. I think if people were to get too fixated about Megrahi the primary culprits will once again slip away out of sight. Perhaps that is what is wanted although I'm not much for conspiracies.

Of all the things I thought you might say, that wasn't even on my radar!

The thing is, if Megrahi was lying about not being connected to the JSO in 1988, then he most certainly wasn't the sort of errand boy you send to buy some random clothes.

Second, if indeed the operation were compartmentalised in the way you suggest, there is no way on God's green earth Megrahi would have been the person who both bought the clothes and then showed up at the airport for no readily apparent reason, at the time the bomb was being smuggled into the system by person or persons unknown.

That is of course assuming the Crown case that the bomb travelled unaccompanied from Malta to Frankfurt is in fact true, something for which there is precisely zero evidence, despite an investigation so single-minded and determined it's quite inconceivable that no trace would have been discovered if it had in fact happened.

However, the main problem with your theory is this part.

I think he stood a near racing certainty of winning his appeal if it had gone ahead.

The entire thrust of the part of the SCCRC report that we know about was that he didn't buy the clothes. I mean, it's ridiculous. Tony Gauci's original description of the purchaser resembled Megrahi not at all (over six feet tall, about 50 years old, dark skin, burly, heavily-built - Megrahi is 5 feet 8 inches, light-skinned, of average build and was 36 at the time of the clothes purchase). In addition the date most likely to have been the date of the purchase was 23rd November, when Megrahi was nowhere near Tony's shop. A major point in the SCCRC report was that

there is no reasonable basis in the trial court’s judgement for its conclusion that the purchase of the items from Mary’s House, took place on 7 December 1988. [....]

In the Commission’s view, [....] the purchase of the items took place prior to 6 December 1988. In other words, it indicates that the purchase took place at a time when there was no evidence at trial that the applicant was in Malta.

There is also the problem that the picture (allegedly) of Megrahi which Tony picked out of the rigged photospread on 15th February 1991, after much coaching and hinting, is the one and only picture of the man that I've seen which actually looks nothing like him!

www.vetpath.co.uk/lockerbie/photoid.pdf

So really, whatever role you want to ascribe to Megrahi, buying the clothes is not it. Doing something nefarious on Malta on the morning of 21st December 1988 is also a pretty dodgy allegation, in the light of the complete absence of evidence of him having done anything that morning other than catch a plane for Tripoli, with hand luggage only, and the complete absence of evidence of the bomb having begun its journey in Malta in the first place.

Rolfe.

 

[Caustic Logic]

If this case is to be re-opened, it SHOULD by necessity be done extra-right, not politically or based on intel chatter and other slushy stuff. It MUST start (ETA: After starting where we left off and backtracking through the "errors") with what we know:
- Iran's motives - undeniable
- the payment (okay that's chatter)
- the group, the bomb maker and the technology, the missing device,
- the 38-minute detonation, the London clues, the Bedfords suitcase(s).
- Other things I'm not thinking of off hand.

With no Gaddafi regime left to hang it on, I actually have amazing hope for the truth now being able to be admitted officially. It's already completely out in the open, aside from a few missing links - just who, exactly how, etc.

ETA: On the other hand, probably still far too awkward to allow - if so, expect renewed efforts to confirm in a hardcore style that the Libyans did do it. A "confession," and "official documents" would be involved, and Moussa Koussa.

(ETA: If the former) I predict a surge of viewers at my (old) blog in the coming year or two, and eventually a major move on Iran (after Syria, which might be just after Libya), and the bizarre sight of the truth being employed in another war against another bad guy country with tons of oil.

ETA: Incidentally, I'm surprise Khaled does spell it "garhi." I thought that was a typo. The vowels are not usually important, but I thought at least the "r" before the vowel was at least correct. They made a point of never getting Qathafi right (did I?), the same with Mr. Elmegarhi?

ETA: If the truth is finally acknowledged on Lockerbie, it might all but lock the West on course for a war with Iran which I think would finally trigger World War IV. As with the first two, the enemies will be the same in IV as in III (Cold War) - Russia and China, this time with N. Korea, Iran, Pakistan, and others around who unite to say enough is enough. So perhaps I don't want the truth, as awkward as that will be to witness.

 

[little grey rabbit]

and the bizarre sight of the truth being employed in another war against another bad guy country with tons of oil.

Bad Guy Country with tons of oil.....I too have been hearing the rumours that the Faeroese are about to launch a surprise attack through the Orkneys and seize Aberdeen and the North Sea oil wells

Dunno, if it will really happen though.

 

[Nogbad]

Hi Rolfe

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was merely suggesting how a state sponsored act of terrorism would most likely have been constructed and therefore how all of the key players whether Iran, Gadaffi or other groups have never faced justice.

I said Megrahi's appeal would have likely been successful because as you rightly point out the whole clothes shop thing has so many holes in it. I can't put my hand on my heart and say Megrahi had no involvement (but the evidence he did is at best exceptionally weak) but I have never understood the almost desperate desire that he carry the whole can either. Nor that it was OK for the US and UK to resume normal relations with Libya and Gadaffi as long as they had a scapegoat in prison.

 

[Rolfe]

If this case is to be re-opened, it SHOULD by necessity be done extra-right, not politically or based on intel chatter and other slushy stuff. It MUST start (ETA: After starting where we left off and backtracking through the "errors") with what we know:
- Iran's motives - undeniable
- the payment (okay that's chatter)
- the group, the bomb maker and the technology, the missing device, [....]

I disagree. It must start entirely with unpicking where the original investigation went wrong, which was firstly in refusing to look at the mounting evidence for the bomb having been introduced at Heathrow, secondly in becoming absolutely obsessed by the theory that the bomb had travelled unaccompanied from Malta, and thirdly in manufacturing the spurious case against Megrahi once he was found to be a convenient scapegoat in the right place at the right time.

As far as the Heathrow evidence goes, there is a lot for the court to think about. For one thing, the evidence suppressed at Zeist that none of the passengers was carrying a brown Samsonite suitcase, therefore the case Bedford saw could not have been legitimate luggage as the Court assumed. For another, the fact that the entire basis of the rejection of Heathrow as the point of origin, which was the assumption that the cases seen by Bedford were not moved by Sidhu and/or Sandhu, was utterly destroyed in late 1991 (after the FAI findings were delivered, based 100% on that assumption) when Feraday changed his mind about the position of Patricia Coyle's suitcase to place it where the mysterious "Bedford suitcase" had been seen. Add to that the bizarre explanation for the actual baggage placement and replacement proposed by the judges, and you have an interesting set of difficulties.

As regards Malta, it has to be acknowledged that this theory was baseless. All the Erac printout shows is a coding record that appears to indicate an item of luggage bound for PA103A being coded at the same time as the luggage from KM180. Even if it is proved that S0009 was indeed station 206, which is not certain, this record has to be seen in the context of the subsequent investigation finding that "there is considerable and quite compelling evidence" that the introduction of an unaccompanied suitcase at Malta "could not have happened". On the other hand, there are various circumstances which could have led to an anomalous coding entry at Frankfurt. In addition, there is no evidence at all that whatever was in tray 8849 contained the bomb, and quite a lot of evidence (starting from the fact that Maier saw no radio-cassette player when he x-rayed that group of luggage) that it didn't.

The refusal of the investigation to accept that they might have been wrong about the Malta loading theory stands alongside their refusal to admit they might have been wrong about the Bedford suitcase not being the bomb bag. This is the fundamental error in the entire affair, and has to be confronted before any possible alternative suspects are considered.

First up, in my opinion, is the unbaking of the cake - the Innocence Project's vivid metaphor for the difficulty of acknowledging a wrongful conviction once it is a legal fact. That includes the fundamental error described above, and the subsequent manufacturing of the case against Megrahi. That mainly concerns the pressure, hints, coaching and bribery of Tony Gauci to agree that Megrahi resembled the clothes purchaser, but also acknowledgement of the fact that the US DoJ and CIA also coached, pressurised and bribed Majid Giaka to provide additional evidence against Megrahi which was explicitly rejected as fabricated by the Zeist court. And of course the extraneous detail that was dragged in such as him being acquainted with Edwin Bollier, and allegedly connected to the JSO (in itself not a crime), and - shock, horror - Libyan!!

With no Gaddafi regime left to hang it on, I actually have amazing hope for the truth now being able to be admitted officially. It's already completely out in the open, aside from a few missing links - just who, exactly how, etc.

First things first. Nothing can be done in that direction, whether or not you think it is desirable, while the legal "fact" of Megrahi's guilt still stands. Face up to the shambles of a disaster of a farce that was the Lockerbie Inquiry, accept that critical errors of judgement led to the investigation galloping after a false lead and as a result fitting up an innocent man for a crime he had nothing to do with, and then other avenues of inquiry might be opened.

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

Hi Rolfe

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was merely suggesting how a state sponsored act of terrorism would most likely have been constructed and therefore how all of the key players whether Iran, Gadaffi or other groups have never faced justice.

I said Megrahi's appeal would have likely been successful because as you rightly point out the whole clothes shop thing has so many holes in it. I can't put my hand on my heart and say Megrahi had no involvement (but the evidence he did is at best exceptionally weak) but I have never understood the almost desperate desire that he carry the whole can either. Nor that it was OK for the US and UK to resume normal relations with Libya and Gadaffi as long as they had a scapegoat in prison.

Indeed. I was merely puzzled by your choice of suggested involvement for Megrahi being the feature which was conclusively demolished by the SCCRC.

It seems to be fashionable to declare that one can't absolutely declare that Megrahi had nothing to do with it. Of course, proving a negative is notoriously difficult. Nevertheless, if he didn't buy the clothes, and the bomb did not travel on KM180 that morning, there is precisely nothing linking him to the bombing. Any case for his involvement would have to be constructed de novo, and frankly if there is any genuine evidence against him that the inquiry didn't discover while it was assiduously fitting him up, it would be astonishing.

Rolfe.

 

[Nogbad]

Beg to differ with you there. Wonder where those Libyan Dr.'s medical records really came from....

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2011/0826/1224303001756.html?via=rel



And prior to above noted "sightings" he was also sighted touring in a Ferrari and Range Rover the construction of his new home (in addition to the posh residence to which he was released). Wonder how posh the former and new residence is/are now, and/ or if the new residence is where he is now. My guess is he is scurrying like the rat / cockroach that he is, along with his master in holes and tunnels, trying to find a way out of Tripoli, lest his wheel chair be wheeled aboard a flight back to Scotland. OH MY.. whatever will Kenny do then? HAHAHAHA. Betcha Kenny is shakin' in his wellies these days about that.



You have some catching up to do. The whole crux of this situation is that the Iranians paid for it, but the people he paid got busted in the Autumn Leaves sting, so they tossed the hot potato to the Libyans, who were all to happy to take the bomb and plant it, blow up PA103, and after years of sanctions, provide a pathetic apology for agents of the government's (aka Megrahi and Fimah) actions. End result, Trial, and conviction of Megrahi. Who now LIVES two years after compassionate realease based on 3 months to live... "Scot Free".
All I can say is I hope the Libyan people get their freedom, and that the former Lyban regime, and all their employees get their final and just results / karma... call it what you may, for all of the pain, suffering, and mass murders of Libyans, victims of PA103, Labelle Discotech, and other nations over the past 40+ years for which they are responsible.
The Libyan Regime, INCLUDING MEGRAHI have spent far to much of their victims' and the word's time and money.

It is high time we stop wasting time on these pathetic wastes of oxygen.
~B.

I'm not sure I follow what the Hana Gadaffi story has to do with the near collapse of services in Tripoli and the liklihood that Megrahi will not be getting the top of the range medical care he received when first released (unless the link has gone a bit funny).

Megrahi was released and therefore is not a wanted man and so it is unlikely he would get back into Scotland even if he wanted to. I can't see it being an issue for MacAskill. It has little political significance as most people here see him either as a fall guy or at worst as a Government pawn.

If, as is possible, Gadaffi was involved, he has so many other crimes to face that it is unlikely he will stand trial separately for Lockerbie. He may not get out of Sirte alive to face any trial come to that.

 

[Nogbad]

It seems to be fashionable to declare that one can't absolutely declare that Megrahi had nothing to do with it.

Hi Rolfe

I can't remember the last time I was called fashionable I am just naturally cautious. If you stick with the same thing it will come into fashion sooner or later (well maybe not tricorn hats).

 

[trustbutverify]

Indeed. I was merely puzzled by your choice of suggested involvement for Megrahi being the feature which was conclusively demolished by the SCCRC.

It seems to be fashionable to declare that one can't absolutely declare that Megrahi had nothing to do with it. Of course, proving a negative is notoriously difficult. Nevertheless, if he didn't buy the clothes, and the bomb did not travel on KM180 that morning, there is precisely nothing linking him to the bombing. Any case for his involvement would have to be constructed de novo, and frankly if there is any genuine evidence against him that the inquiry didn't discover while it was assiduously fitting him up, it would be astonishing.

Rolfe.

I think we both know who the culprit really is.