Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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It does seem to me that the obvious is pretty obvious. Migininini has pinned his TOD to the testimony of a drug dealing heroin addicted homeless park bench bum who can't remember what night it was.

Does Massei give a reason that Lambrotti and company don't see or hear anything?

I've unfortunately had a lot of experience talking to schizophrenics and bipolar people. I’m not implying that Mignini is one, by the way.

But in my experience, you had to keep the conversation really light. You could discuss serious things only when they were in the best of moods. Try to be serious with them and you better be sure you have an escape route. I’m not saying that you have to agree with them either. You don’t want to validate their wacko ideas. I just can’t understand why so many have tried serious discussions with the people from PMF. I don’t like to argue with disturbed people.

The PMF people that have survived all the scourges are benign and give the illusion of conflict and discussion. They are not only OK, but necessary. Conflict is necessary to any story.

Perhaps if Amanda didn't try to talk to disturbed people (the police) then she wouldn't have gotten into so much trouble. We might not still be here discussing the convoluted logic of Mignini.
 
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How could they have gotten into such a level of drug craze that they would kill within such a short time frame? They were seen taking drugs during the witness claims to have seen them, and if they were so drug crazed before leaving R's house that they were still drug crazed killers over 2 hours later, why is there no evidence of them being into such heavy drug usage? The prosecution and Court's claims make no sense whatsoever.

So in the end you have two senarios. One might be rare, but the other is impossible.

I been wondering about other aspects of the case, like the above recently.

Probably in a precursor guessing game, to what the prosecution will employ in their next attack.

To make an accusation, "they were on drugs!! crazed to kill!! sex orgy murderers!!!" seems almost stupid at this point. ..but who knows? To some the opposite.

I will assume, each Juror/LayJudge and Judge has read the Massei report and countless articles from news, and maybe forums. Especially after the August vacation they should have had time. Supposedly they are more educated, and this makes one wonder what that says about the previous trial.

But there's always two sides to the coin. One person laughs at Naras statements while another holds her as the most honest of the entire trial.

Hellman didnt seem interested in doing any sound level tests to see if Nara's hearing ability rivals Superman. I wonder why?
 
Antony - to be clear I have never believed the prosecutions case as presented.

Not sure why this is addressed to me, but I appreciate it anyway. With me, I acquired my initial knowledge of the case after the verdict came out, through reading the comment sections of newspaper articles. Not ideal, in that the intriguing part of it is the reaction it was getting from the different factions.
Curatolo was a joke to me before the heroin use was admitted. Quintavalle and Nara weren't believable. The sex game gone bad didn't make sense.

I read the story about Amanda naming Patrick in one of the papers that carried the quote of the Chief, which caused me to doubt it immediately.

Same with me - even though I learned about the Arturo di Felice quote later. This was a part of the case that I first heard about from reading the comment sections - the accusers were saying, "she accused an innocent man!"; I was thinking, "she made a false confession in an all-night interrogation session with no safeguards for her rights". A no-brainer for me: the "confession/accusation" was coerced.
The knife and bra evidence was just too convenient.

They are what I call "conjuring tricks". The magician on stage produces something we know to be impossible, and the audience claps at his cleverness. Only the PMF contingent actually believe that the feat demonstrated in the illusion happened in reality.
 
Charlie - thanks for the phone info. Do you know if the Italian phone could send SMS to England? Did her mother have a cell phone at the time? Any known reason she didn't use the phone at all on Monday the 29th?

If Amanda's phone had a day without use, I wonder what the PG people would make of that. Possibly, I mean probably, that she and Raf spent that day planning the murder.

It would seem an important piece of information to have more detail on times of use of both phones to see how it would fit with the use on Nov. 1.

What I posted is the only information I have. Meredith's mother was in the hospital at that time, and I don't know if Meredith was calling her on a cell phone.
 
It is amazing that on one hand some will parse every coma of the C&V report but wave off the fact that Curatolo is an admitted heroin addict, high on the murder night who mixed up the days.
 
The reason I believe that Rudy either broke in or staged the break in is the MO. I have experienced burglaries but never a large rock through a window. Break ins often are doors that are jimmied or a window on a door broken with a small tool like the hammer found on Rudy in Milan.

It always struck me as such a huge coincidence that A and R would pick the same method Rudy used to break into the lawyers' offices.
 
Goodnight, Irene

yeah, pretty much.
Danceme,

Well, OK, let's run with that notion (that it would take a person of great agility to do the break-in) for a moment (shall we say). This does suggest another means of getting to Filomena's window: jumping from the parapet. I can see myself doing that in my dreams, but I wonder whether or not someone else could.
EDT
I am offering this idea half in jest. I really have no idea if this is even possible or not.
 
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ballistics

The reason I believe that Rudy either broke in or staged the break in is the MO. I have experienced burglaries but never a large rock through a window. Break ins often are doors that are jimmied or a window on a door broken with a small tool like the hammer found on Rudy in Milan.

It always struck me as such a huge coincidence that A and R would pick the same method Rudy used to break into the lawyers' offices.
Grinder,

A retired member of the carabinieri (Sgt. Pasquali) showed that the glass distribution was consistent with the rock being thrown from the outside. The rock makes sense in the context of a real burglary, but Massei's hypothesis of how the window was broken makes no sense, period. MOO.
 
Late the other night, I happened to catch a programme about the murder of Caroline Dickinson, a British schoolgirl, in France in 1996. I remembered the case to a degree, but the programme exposed a number of interesting points of similarity (to my mind) with the Kercher murder investigation.

The case was handled from the start by an investigating judge (the French criminal justice system is still a predominantly inquisitorial system - particularly for serious crimes). There was a great deal of pressure on the investigating judge to solve the case: the murder had a very high profile, both in France and in the UK, and the girl had been killed in a shared room in a Youth Hostel (which had serious implications for the French tourist industry, especially in the important area of student exchanges).

Within a few days of the murder, the judge announced that the killer had been caught. A local drifter had "made a full confession" to the crime, and the judge essentially announced that the case was solved. However, the victim had been sexually assaulted during the murder, and the killer had left semen at the scene. DNA tests soon proved that the drifter who'd made the "confession" was not the killer. The judge reacted with insolence and a fit of pique, and at first insisted that the drifter had been one of a group of killers, and that the semen came from an "accomplice". In addition, the police (under the judge's direction) had taken virtually no statements from the other students in the hostel or people living nearby, and had botched the forensic examination of the scene (does all this sound familiar....?).

Eventually, the victim's father petitioned successfully (with help from the British Embassy in Paris) to get the judge replaced as the head of the investigation. But even the new judge conducted a pretty lacklustre investigation, despite officially disregarding the drifter as a suspect. After an intensive campaign by the victim's father, the judge agreed (reluctantly) to DNA test all men between 16 and 50 living in and around the small village where the murder occurred. But there were no matches.

Somewhat by chance, the publicity generated by the DNA tests and a rough police photofit (based on the half-asleep remembrances of one of the other girls in the murder room) jogged the memory of one of the local residents, who remembered a Spanish drifter who'd been working on nearby building sites who resembled the photofit. The drifter's name was Francisco Arce Montes. Police quickly established that he had a prior criminal record for sexual crimes committed in youth hostels. So he quickly became the chief suspect. The new judge had a quick look for Montes in France and Europe, but without success. Within a few months, the investigation was put onto the back burner.

Then an extraordinary coincidence led to the capture and conviction of Montes. The victim's father was still trying to generate publicity, and persuaded the UK Sunday Telegraph newspaper to publish a story highlighting how the French authorities had the name of the chief suspect, but seemed either unable or unwilling to seek him out. A US Customs official was conducting an investigation at Detroit Airport, and while he was waiting for a colleague, he thumbed through a copy of the Sunday Telegraph at one of the airport newsstands. He happened upon the story mentioning Montes, and idly wondered whether US authorities had ever been consulted about Montes' whereabouts (they hadn't). When he got back to his office, he looked up Montes in the national crime computer databases, and discovered to his amazement that Montes had just been arrested in Miami for sexual offences against a number of girls in a backpackers' hotel near the beach. Eventually, a DNA sample was taken, and it perfectly matched the semen sample from Caroline Dickinson's body. Montes was ultimately convicted of her murder.

To me, there are a number of very interesting similarities between these two cases, notably: the pressure for results; the consequent rush to judgement; the improper obtaining and usage of "confessions"; the belligerence of the investigating judges/prosecutors; the unwillingness to discard the initial suspect(s), even when logic suggested that he/they had nothing to do with the crime; the botched collection of physical evidence and witness statements; and the way that the local authorities drew in the wagons when faced with criticism (or even tough questioning of methods).


ETA: I do hope everyone in Irene's way manages to stay safe. Best wishes to all fellow posters in N Carolina and up the Eastern Seaboard.
 
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Rather than use the terms guilter or hater I chose to call them Pro Guilt - the fact that one of the key PG people has those initials is a coincidence.
 
Late the other night, I happened to catch a programme about the murder of Caroline Dickinson, a British schoolgirl, in France in 1996. I remembered the case to a degree, but the programme exposed a number of interesting points of similarity (to my mind) with the Kercher murder investigation.

Thanks for that summary John. That's an interesting case that I don't think I have read about, and I will look for more information.
 
Rather than use the terms guilter or hater I chose to call them Pro Guilt - the fact that one of the key PG people has those initials is a coincidence.


Ah, thanks. I couldn't figure it out.

I use guilters or colpevolisti.

Other side is:
Innocentisti or RIGHT. :p
 
Why does pilot pardon comes in here and complain about the way JREF boards works and then he goes to PMF and says all these nasty things, incl JLOL and calls us all kinds of names? Double standards, huh?

I just don't get it.


I think the answer lies probably in the fact that PMF and pro-guilts in general are fighting a good versus evil fight. Evil are Amanda and Raffaele, evil are their supporters — they're despicable, they're almost as bad as Raffaele and Amanda …

And if you belong to the good ones, everything is somehow legitimated, after all; you're fighting against evil — every nasty word they will still see as an euphemism for us … how can you even insult an evil, despicable person?

The worst crimes in history were done by people who saw themselves as the good ones fighting evil … I'm not comparing that of course, but in a very, very, very mild form this might be the same mechanism …
 
I think the answer lies probably in the fact that PMF and pro-guilts in general are fighting a good versus evil fight. Evil are Amanda and Raffaele, evil are their supporters — they're despicable, they're almost as bad as Raffaele and Amanda …

And if you belong to the good ones, everything is somehow legitimated, after all; you're fighting against evil — every nasty word they will still see as an euphemism for us … how can you even insult an evil, despicable person?

The worst crimes in history were done by people who saw themselves as the good ones fighting evil … I'm not comparing that of course, but in a very, very, very mild form this might be the same mechanism …

That's, actually, the best explanation that I could think of.
 
I've unfortunately had a lot of experience talking to schizophrenics and bipolar people. I’m not implying that Mignini is one, by the way.

But in my experience, you had to keep the conversation really light. You could discuss serious things only when they were in the best of moods. Try to be serious with them and you better be sure you have an escape route. I’m not saying that you have to agree with them either. You don’t want to validate their wacko ideas. I just can’t understand why so many have tried serious discussions with the people from PMF. I don’t like to argue with disturbed people.

The PMF people that have survived all the scourges are benign and give the illusion of conflict and discussion. They are not only OK, but necessary. Conflict is necessary to any story.

Perhaps if Amanda didn't try to talk to disturbed people (the police) then she wouldn't have gotten into so much trouble. We might not still be here discussing the convoluted logic of Mignini.

Great points, Justinian. In my opinion, innocenters try to reason with guilters for basically the same reason guilters buy into the prosecution's case. For guilters, it is extremely difficult to believe and accept that trained authorities in a first-world country can make so many mistakes, lie or be corrupt. For innocenters, it is extremely difficult to believe and accept that people with the ability to earn graduate degrees, hold professional positions and otherwise be well educated can also be completely irrational in some ways.

Your recognition of the need to keep the conversation light fits in here, too. As halkides1 has illustrated many times, guilters rarely stick around to answer the hard questions. When guilters reach a point, through argument, where reason dictates they must drop some of their beliefs about the case, they retreat. I think this is not only because they would have to change their thinking, but also because they sense they are about to be brought face-to-face with some painful self-knowledge about why they have put themselves in the role they're in.
 
I think the answer lies probably in the fact that PMF and pro-guilts in general are fighting a good versus evil fight. Evil are Amanda and Raffaele, evil are their supporters — they're despicable, they're almost as bad as Raffaele and Amanda …

And if you belong to the good ones, everything is somehow legitimated, after all; you're fighting against evil — every nasty word they will still see as an euphemism for us … how can you even insult an evil, despicable person?

It's not just that any abuse is legitimate against evil people, it's any invented fact is legitimate in support of the truth. So, it's Raff's footprint on the bathmat; there were Amanda's footprints in blood; they "know" there was a staged break-in and a clean-up, so let's alter some photos to show how unattractive the broken window would have been to a "real" burglar; let's say the bleach receipts (which must have existed) were found; let's go on saying that Raff called the police after they arrived.
 
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