Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[LemmyCaution]

Of course I have read Mueller's book. I won't reply to outrages to your common sense, which most likely have to do with the limits of your mental apparatus and not what is possible or happens in reality. But my point, which you ignore, was that you wrote,

Filip Meuller's book, 'Three Years is a Gas Chamber which announces its absurdity in the title...'

which is daft on at least two grounds, first, you got the title wrong; second, nonfiction books are customarily titled by publishers not authors. You have yourself so worked up that you are making ridiculous claims.

 

[Saggy]

Of course I have read Mueller's book. I won't reply to outrages to your common sense, which most likely have to do with the limits of your mental apparatus and not what is possible or happens in reality. But my point, which you ignore, was that you wrote, which is daft on at least two grounds, first, you got the title wrong; second, nonfiction books are customarily titled by publishers not authors. You have yourself so worked up that you are making ridiculous claims.

Really? Were you surprised when Filip complained about the tea after watching 35 of his comrades get clubbed to death, and narrowly escaping death himself? Thirty-five of his comrades, friend and relatives no doubt, were soon to be stone cold, but what's to worry. The tea, however, is another matter !

The holohoax is a pack of degenerate lies, written by execrable writers. One only has to read their 'testimony' to know it.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Really? Were you surprised when Filip complained about the tea after watching 35 of his comrades get clubbed to death, and narrowly escaping death himself? Thirty-five of his comrades, friend and relatives no doubt, were soon to be stone cold, but what's to worry. The tea, however, is another matter !

The holohoax is a pack of degenerate lies, written by execrable writers. One only has to read their 'testimony' to know it.

Does it surprise you to read the following about a Nazi camp?

- prisoners kept on a diet of turnip soup, a little bread, a tiny scrap of meat distributed or withheld at the whim of camp directors


- the withholding of rations on the whim of camp authorities, just to be cruel


- inmates with TB whom camp administration refused medical treatment and housed alongside healthy inmates


- sick inmates made to work, flogged and beaten


- young children in the camps, held apart from their parents
- women beaten in their faces with nail studded boards


- inmates punished by being locked into freezing dungeons made of concrete and denied food


- laborers hosed down with cold water in winter, as punishment, in the assembly squares


- workers executed for stealing potatoes


- public executions in the camps for minor violations of rules

 

[Cyrix686]

Yes I read the book as well. if we are going to talk incredulous, he is incredulously boring and an absolutely terrible writer, so I don't think he is any position to criticise Muller. In any case he would be referring to a book which is translated out of the original Slovakian. Is Saggy making a comment on the translator then?

What sort of book would Saggy write? It would contain illogical statements and sentences. I'm not entirely sure why he is attacking the book over the Sport section of it here either.

I find his incredulity predictable and his sneering tone to be bizarre. I guess though its just old Seven Up working himself into a denier lather (as they do from time to time.) And as usual focusing obsessively upon just one thing in the fond belief that it is the keystone to his beloved "holohoax."

He can tug away as as much as he likes.

 

[Dogzilla]

I am fascinated to hear why you think this is unusual. Regardless of Zizblatt's account this was very common practice in prisons like Devils Island

Swallowing and defecating diamonds over and over again was a "very common" practice in prisons like Devil's Island? I don't suppose you have any evidence to back up that statement?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Why should this, that, or the other random individual who was rounded up, deported, and shoved into a camp be a great or even good writer? This is a confusing criticism of survivors. Of course, Primo Levi was a very fine writer, in my opinion, clear and direct. Or, as Cyrix suggests, it may be his translator I liked reading.

"Sports" were so prevalent, and so brutal, that encountering yet another description of this form of atrocity is not very surprising at all. What is surprising is that Holocaust scholar Saggy is not familiar with "sports."

But women beaten in their faces with nail studded boards?

 

[Wroclaw]

And, if we believe Yehuda Bauer, and what's to doubt about the director of Yad Vashem, Nick's has a list of exactly one to choose from, because Yehuda Bauer says that the pathological liar Filip Meuller is "the only man to see the Jewish people die and live to tell the story". That's a short list.

Are you genetically incapable of writing new material?

 

[Wroclaw]

But, it gets better, 35 of the prisoners are clubbed to death right in front of Meuller ....

This is the Death Dealer of Kovno:

At his feet are the bodies of Jews, killed in broad daylight in Kovno, in Lithuania.

Or is that a lie too?

 

[MG1962]

Ah. Tattoo removal, a fav pastime of the inscrutable Nazis.

And I saw that "let them eat cake" was Germanized with let them play soccer, orchestra, theater, and paint for the children. Odd how the soccer field was pretty much adjacent to the "24/7 gas chamber."

And this has what exactly to do with your original post and my follow up question

 

[little grey rabbit]

Ah, you see Lemmy, in order to appreciate a book you have to read it. Now, I recommend anyone and everyone read Meuller's book. I'll tell you how it starts just you sharpen your interest ..... Sunday morning and Mueller is at the morning assembly, the kapos play their usual game of commanding the prisoners to doff their caps, and if you're too slow you are clubbed to death on the spot. I'm not making this up. But, it gets better, 35 of the prisoners are clubbed to death right in front of Meuller .... his next remark is, well, remarkable .... only a quote will do it justice ...

"As a result of this mornings sporting activities, thirty-five bludgeoned bodies now lay in the yard of Block 11. However our harassment was by no means at an end. Although by now we were exhausted we stood in line behind wooden tea vats. The tea should have been served early in the morning and was now stone cold."

All this in the first six pages. You can see why it's a classic ! Read it, you'll love it I'm sure.

I think Saggy is being rather unreasonable here.

Drinking stone-cold tea is unpleasant enough, but having to do so in the company of 35 bludgeoned bodies is adding insult to injury.

I can quite understand Mr Mueller's objection here.

 

[little grey rabbit]

I think Saggy is being rather unreasonable here.

Drinking stone-cold tea is unpleasant enough, but having to do so in the company of 35 bludgeoned bodies is adding insult to injury.

I can quite understand Mr Mueller's objection here.

On the plus side, you would get extra tea.

 

[Dogzilla]

I think Saggy is being rather unreasonable here.

Drinking stone-cold tea is unpleasant enough, but having to do so in the company of 35 bludgeoned bodies is adding insult to injury.

I can quite understand Mr Mueller's objection here.

I thought dead bodies were the norm in these camps. You wake up next to a dead body. You sleep under a dead body. You trip over dead bodies on your way to the latrine. You drag dead bodies to roll call with you. You shave their heads, pull their teeth, rummage around inside their orifices to find hidden jewelry or gold coins. Death death and more death. That's why Phil didn't mention the dead bodies--that was the norm. But being served cold tea--especially if it was high tea--now that's barbaric.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Is it me, or has the mask (what there was of it) completely come off over the last few pages of this thread?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Is it me, or has the mask (what there was of it) completely come off over the last few pages of this thread?

Baiting and mocking Jews are the norm in these discussions.

 

[little grey rabbit]

Well, no one forced them to tell such extraordinary porkies.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Well, no one forced them to tell such extraordinary porkies.

Again, your incredulity is not an argument; when you pile mockery on top of it, you let your slip show quite a bit.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Baiting and mocking Jews are the norm in these discussions.

Indeed.

Sometimes, however, the usual gang of idiots tries a little harder to pretend to be normal people.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Anyway I have done what you suggested

Dear Mr Streeter,

Thank you for your informative tale regarding Mr Leon Weinstein. It has let to some discussion at the James Randi forum.
Starting here
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.p...02147&page=125

You claim that holocaust historians endorse Mr Weinstein's story. What was your methodology for determining this? How many and who precisely think this story is credible. I myself am no mean Holocaust scholar. Check my blog http://littlegreyrabbit.wordpress.com for more details.

Best wishes
Grey

I will of course immediately inform you of any reply.

Did he ever get back to you? Or did claiming to be a Holocaust scholar and then linking to a denier website have the effect I predicted?

 

[Nick Terry]

If Nick Terry cannot name one (1) credible Jewish eyewitness to the holohoax, what does it mean?

It means that all the Jewish eyewitnesses are liars.

Even if you went without an answer until doomsday and were ignored, it would mean nothing of the sort. The credibility of eyewitnesses to Nazi mass murder doesn't depend on whether one poster responds to your very silly question/challenge.

It also doesn't depend on whether there is a "best witness", or a best Jewish witness, for a number of reasons which ought to be obvious to everyone, but which have apparently eluded you.

Firstly, you asked for an eyewitness "to the holohoax", which sane people would translate as the Holocaust. Sane people's understanding of the Holocaust includes mass extermination by shooting, deaths in ghettos, labour camps and concentration camps, deaths in transit en route to the camps, shootings on arrival at places like Treblinka, and gassings at Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka, Auschwitz, Majdanek, Semlin and Maly Trostinets along with many other places. By definition there cannot be one witness to all these sites.

Secondly, the events were not only witnessed by Jews, but by Germans, Poles, Ukrainians and other nationalities. In a number of cases we don't have any Jewish eyewitnesses to these killings because they, er, died. Where there are Jewish survivors, we can often contrast their perspectives and vantage points with the perspectives and observations of non-Jews.

Thirdly, the events were also documented more than chimp deniers seem to realise, which further corroborates the eyewitness testimonies.

Finally, there are rather a lot of eyewitnesses to Nazi mass murder. I know of more than 300 for the Reinhard camps, of whom more than 100 were Jewish survivors. Their credibility can only be assessed collectively, not individually, in parallel, not in series. The number of witnesses to Auschwitz is in the low tens of thousands.

But you know, keep blethering about Mueller and Zisblatt and Wiernik, it sure makes you look well informed and knowledgeable.

 

[LemmyCaution]

And in this vein, deniers inevitably and inexorably use the forgery card when particular witnesses and documents become especially uncomfortable for them.

One denier recently went so far as to declare that Jewish diaries and other documents were fiddled with first by those with a CTOJM (certain type of Jewish mind) and then, when that didn't fulfill him, by Jewish Communists to ensure that there were no gaps between the narrative that Communist "Commissions" were establishing and themselves.

So when discussions turn from general statements to specifics -- take the pairing of the Ponar diary of a Polish journalist, Sakowicz, who recorded mass executions of Jews outside Vilna, with Kruk's journal, which contains eyewitness accounts of events inside the Vilna ghetto along with contemporary testimony about the shootings -- this is the instant retreat position of denial: Moscow forgery factories. For which the sole evidence deniers have adduced consists of 1) incredulity about the evidence, 2) hare-brained suspicions about what might possibly have happened if these events had taken place in another galaxy, and 3) braggadocio about the case we will see if we wait long enough. It is rather a joke, isn't it?