Is Islam an evil religion?

[Craig B]

Ah, Bill, what's my point? What indeed? It's all very mysterious, you know.

If people write "mistakes" they're not necessarily bigots, more probably just idiots. Bigots are people who write lies to foment hatred against others. Pamela Geller is a bigot. Ayatollah Khomeini was a bigot.

Ali Sina of your faithfreedom cut 'n paste hatesite is a bigot. See
http://www.faithfreedom.org/article...ali-sina-on-ground-zero-mosque-cordova-house/

Cordova is a city in south Spain. Muslims armies invaded Spain in 711, massacring countless people. Then they converted the biggest church in Cordova into a mosque. Building mosques over churches, synagogues and temples of the conquered people began during the life of Muhammad who converted the temple of the Arabs in Mecca into an Islamic mosque.

Now that is designed to make people think the Muslims turned churches and synagogues in Cordova into mosques, but he doesn't actually say so, because he knows the real history of that conquest, and here it is:
http://www.projetaladin.org/holocau...ms-and-jews-in-history/untitled-document.html

The Muslim conquest of Spain in 711 was generally welcomed by the Jews. According to Moslem and Christian sources, Jews provided valuable aid to the Muslim invaders. Once captured, the defence of Cordoba was left in the hands of Jews, and Granada, Malaga, Seville, and Toledo were left to a mixed army of Jews and Moors.

so that campaign was a Muslim plus Jewish vs Christian war. The Jews chose the Muslim side because of the persecution they had previously suffered at the hands of the Spanish Christians.

And if we want to know the story of the Great Synagogue of Cordova, well, here it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Córdoba_Synagogue

built in 1315. The synagogue was built in Mudéjar style by architects led by Isaac Moheb. ... After the expulsion of the Jews from Spain in 1492, the building was devoted to various functions including a Hydrophobic hospital, a chapel for shoemakers and nursery school.

So it was Christians who recycled the Cordova synagogue, not the Muslims.

And that's what I mean by saying you're simply regurgitating junk churned out by hate sites. Quite consciously people like Ali Sina state things with the intention to mislead people, induce them to accept falsehood as truth, and hate other people because they have been fed on a diet of non-factual trash and slander. That is my point.

 

[Bill Thompson]

The kids killed on Utøya Island weren't paranoid, either.

Another blast from the past?

Are we strolling down memory lane?

OK thanks! Your position makes perfect sense now.

Bill Thompson says that Islam is evil because Muslims want to knife Bill Thompson.

Well with an paranoid attitude like that it is no wonder why you have such trouble understanding simple facts and logic.

Theo Van Gogh was not paranoid. I should be more like him?


I have not had an angry christian call me at work. That has happened because of my debates with Islam.


Christianity no longer interpets the bible literally (the mainstream doesn't) but islam does (with the Quran) and that causes a lot of problems.

The problems are that because they cannot win a debate on logic, they have to resort to other measures to stop their detractors like the Scientologist did with Paulette Cooper and like Khominei has done with Salmon Rushdie.

 

[A'isha]

Another blast from the past?

Are we strolling down memory lane?

The massacre in Norway was a lot more recent than Van Gogh's murder.

Oh, wait, I forgot...you're the only one allowed to bring up other religions (like Scientology) and those who commit crimes in their name in these threads.

Christianity no longer interpets the bible literally (the mainstream doesn't) but islam does and that causes a lot of problems.

This is utterly, utterly false, on both counts.

The problems are that because they cannot win a debate on logic, they have to resort to other measures to stop their detractors like the Scientologist did with Paulette Cooper and like Khominei has done with Salmon Rushdie.

It's Salman. Salman!

 

[Bill Thompson]

The massacre in Norway was a lot more recent than Van Gogh's murder.

Ohhh, right. So what priest, pope, or bishop told him to do that?

 

[A'isha]

Ohhh, right. So what priest, pope, or bishop told him to do that?

Breivik was acting based on his own interpretation of what his culture and religion commanded. Just like the murderer of Van Gogh was, actually.

 

[FireGarden]

Ohhh, right. So what priest, pope, or bishop told him to do that?

I think that guy you hadn't heard of, Robert Spencer, was one of the inspirations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks

"The New York Times described American influences in the writings, noting that the compendium mentions the anti-Islamist American Robert Spencer 64 times and cites Spencer's works at great length."

No one ever called me a bigot when I showed Christians there were flaws in the bible.

If you discuss the Bible in the same way you discuss the Quran, then you would be criticised. In fact, I remember criticising you for treating Catholicism with too broad a brush. And, as I've pointed out before, other people on this forum have criticised Islam/Muslims/Quran and not been called bigots.

It must be the way you do it. Which brings me to:

After showing him that, no, there are not any four-legged insects like God told Moses and all the other piles of contradictions and errors, he tried his best to come up with logical explainations. "The four leged insets are extinct... they 'evolved' away...maybe rabits don't chew their cuds but if you go back to the original hebrew maybe it was another kind of animal that is extinct..."

This was your debate with Fred Phelps?
This is how you approached the subject of Christianity?

I can't see you doing it that way. Why did you change your strategy?

 

[I Ratant]

Breivik was acting based on his own interpretation of what his culture and religion commanded. Just like the murderer of Van Gogh was, actually.

.

"Vengeance is Mine" sayeth the Lord.........'s crazed followers who can't wait for the afterlife vengeance, and smite around the local area themselves, just to be certain those others really are dead.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Breivik was acting based on his own interpretation of what his culture and religion commanded. Just like the murderer of Van Gogh was, actually.

Uh huh. So no one told Breivik to do what he did, he acted alone. I noticed you snuck in "culture" as a fail safe for being proven wrong. That is bad logic. Did anyone tell the murderer of Theo van gogh to do what he did, or did he act alone? Where there official logical writings and demands from Muslim Scholars?
How about the death threats against cartoonists? Are each one of them, individually acting alone like Breivik?

So using your logic, any criminial who happens to be christian is a criminal because of christianity?

I think that is an important question. I will watch you ignore it.

Thanks for the spell, check, by the way. I am glad. I was beginning to think you were not helpful.

FireGarden, should I be reading your posts?

 

[Bill Thompson]

I think that guy you hadn't heard of, Robert Spencer, was one of the inspirations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks

Does this make sense you you, FireGarden?

Were the Beatles in inspiratioin for Charles Manson?

You know, I make loose logical associations sometimes too, but it is usually as I fall asleep at night and my mind drifts off.

 

[Bill Thompson]

This was your debate with Fred Phelps?
This is how you approached the subject of Christianity?

I can't see you doing it that way. Why did you change your strategy?

What are you saying? There are gaps in your train of thought so big that a truck could drive through them.

No, this was not how I approached the subject of Christianity. No, I never said or implied that.
No, this was not even a noticable fraction of my debate with Fred Phelps. No, I never said or implied that.

You posts are strange to me. Honestly, do you think you make sense?

 

[Mister Agenda]

Does this make sense you you, FireGarden?

Were the Beatles in inspiratioin for Charles Manson?

You know, I make loose logical associations sometimes too, but it is usually as I fall asleep at night and my mind drifts off.

Yes, the Beatles were an inspiration for Charles Manson. He said as much. The Beatles have no culpability though, because CM's interpretation of their lyrics was unjustifiably bizarre. In the case of Robert Spencer, it's understanding what he wrote correctly that was inspirational to Breivik. Someone listening to Abbey Road and killing some Jews for being Jews based on their interpretation of the songs is one thing. Reading Mein Kampf and killing some Jews for being Jews based on interpreting that is another thing.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Yes, the Beatles were an inspiration for Charles Manson. He said as much. The Beatles have no culpability though, because CM's interpretation of their lyrics was unjustifiably bizarre. In the case of Robert Spencer, it's understanding what he wrote correctly that was inspirational to Breivik. Someone listening to Abbey Road and killing some Jews for being Jews based on their interpretation of the songs is one thing. Reading Mein Kampf and killing some Jews for being Jews based on interpreting that is another thing.

Right. But you are missing the point. The Beatles were an inspiration for Charles Manson but that was no fault of the Beatles. Robert Spencer would not admit to being an inspiration from Breivik just as the Beatles would not admit to being an inspration to Manson.

The fact that the Beatles were an inspriation to Manson was Mansons fault, not the Beatles.

Got it?

FireGarden seems to think that if some psycho gets "inspiration" from something, then that thing is bad.

I noticed that if he does not like what I have to say he implies I am a liar. Denial.

 

[Mister Agenda]

Uh huh. So no one told Breivik to do what he did, he acted alone. I noticed you snuck in "culture" as a fail safe for being proven wrong. That is bad logic. Did anyone tell the murderer of Theo van gogh to do what he did, or did he act alone? Where there official logical writings and demands from Muslim Scholars?
How about the death threats against cartoonists? Are each one of them, individually acting alone like Breivik?

So using your logic, any criminial who happens to be christian is a criminal because of christianity?

I think that is an important question. I will watch you ignore it.

Bill, you're the one who was using the 'nut who goes off and interprets scriptures on his own by what they really say and starts killing people' as an example, and now you say an official religious figure has to tell them to do it before it counts? You've got my head spinning.

 

[A'isha]

Uh huh. So no one told Breivik to do what he did, he acted alone.

There have been suggestions that he was working with others, but so far everything points to a lone nut who obsessively read websites like Spencer's and Gellar's Islamophobic cesspools.

I noticed you snuck in "culture" as a fail safe for being proven wrong. That is bad logic.

No, I said "culture" because Breivik said "culture". Specifically, he said that he was a "cultural Christian" seeking to defend it against Islam and multiculturalism.

Did anyone tell the murderer of Theo van gogh to do what he did, or did he act alone? Where there official logical writings and demands from Muslim Scholars?

You tell me, since you started this whole digression.

So using your logic, any criminial who happens to be christian is a criminal because of christianity?

Of course not. But when they specifically note that their actions are because of (and in defense of) a religion, it's pretty safe to say that their religious beliefs are important when discussing their motivations.

As I've repeatedly tried to tell you, this is as applicable to Muslim terrorists as it is to Christian terrorists. And, as I've also repeatedly tried to tell you, this is only indicative of the beliefs and actions of those specific terrorists, and can't be used to indict either other Christians or Muslims, or to indict Christianity or Islam as a whole.

I think that is an important question. I will watch you ignore it.

I'll accept your apology now.

Thanks for the spell, check, by the way. I am glad. I was beginning to think you were not helpful.

My pleasure.

 

[FireGarden]

Does this make sense you you, FireGarden?

Yes.

Were the Beatles in inspiratioin for Charles Manson?

Yes.

What are you saying?

That the things I have seen you say about religion are way more over the top than the examples you gave.

No, this was not how I approached the subject of Christianity. No, I never said or implied that.
No, this was not even a noticable fraction of my debate with Fred Phelps. No, I never said or implied that.

Have you kept the e-mails?
If you could upload them someplace, I would be interested in reading them.

Honestly, do you think you make sense?

Yes.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Bill, you're the one who was using the 'nut who goes off and interprets scriptures on his own by what they really say and starts killing people' as an example, and now you say an official religious figure has to tell them to do it before it counts? You've got my head spinning.

Ah, good point. Hum....

But, at the same time, did this guy use a bible as a reference and could his interpretation be considered to be literal?

Also, I think you might be mixing two different subjects to piece together an argument.

You are also getting something a little wrong. Sometimes a slight error makes a big mistake.

I never talked about a nut case who runs off on his own in a general sense. That is not how I would classify Osama bin Laden or Warren Jeffs or Terry Shirts. They are fundamentalists. I doubt even this guy in Norway would consider himself to be a fundamentalist of christianity. Did he?

 

[Bill Thompson]

FireGarden, you don't elaborate or really explain yourself at all.

 

[Complexity]

Stop ducking the questions, Bill. How, exactly, are you planning to war against Islam while leaving Muslims alone?

Let's say you suddenly get appointed Commanding General of the War Against Islam. What's your proposed campaign? What do you do?

When in danger
or in doubt,
run in circles,
scream and shout.

- Robert Heinlein

 

[Mister Agenda]

Right. But you are missing the point. The Beatles were an inspiration for Charles Manson but that was no fault of the Beatles. Robert Spencer would not admit to being an inspiration from Breivik just as the Beatles would not admit to being an inspration to Manson.

The fact that the Beatles were an inspriation to Manson was Mansons fault, not the Beatles.

Got it?

If I were missing the point, perhaps I shouldn't have included the part where I said 'the Beatles have no culpability...'.

The REASON the Beatles have no culpability is NOT because no one ever holds any responsibility if someone is inspired to commit crimes because of their work. It's because the inspiration Manson got from their work was based on misunderstanding it. The inspiration Breivik got from Spencer's work was based on him NOT misunderstanding it. Spencer said Muslim immigration had to be stopped, Breivik's actions were intended to stop it. No misunderstanding. And Spencer has other followers even now saying that what Breivik did was necessary. Noting that Breivik was partly inspired by Spencer is not saying that Breivik's crimes were Spencer's fault. It's saying that it's foreseeable that what Spencer writes can lead to violence, and to that degree, Spencer contributed to Breivik's massacre.

 

[A'isha]

Right. But you are missing the point. The Beatles were an inspiration for Charles Manson but that was no fault of the Beatles. Robert Spencer would not admit to being an inspiration from Breivik just as the Beatles would not admit to being an inspration to Manson.

There's a rather large gulf between thinking the lyrics of a Beatles song referencing an amusement park ride are really about a prophecy for a coming apocalyptic race war and so carrying out murders as a pre-emptive strike in that war, and thinking the voluminous writings of a guy who says ad nauseam and explicitly that Muslims represent a clear and present danger to the Christian West in a coming religiocultural war are really about Muslims representing a clear and present danger to the Christian West in a coming religiocultural war and so carrying out murders as a pre-emptive strike in that war.

EDIT: Or, y'know, what Mister Agenda said.