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Merged Remember the West Memphis 3?

Fingerprint analysis is supposed to be objective, but it isn't. In addition, it depends on the methodology.

In the McKie case, the analysts were using a system where they said they had a match if they found a certain number of points that were the same on both prints. The trouble with that is that it doesn't take into account whether there are parts of the print that definitely don't match.

Shirley's case had been sloppily marked up, with points marked as equivalent when they really weren't, and the fact that a chunk of the print was actually completely different from Shirley's reference print not appreciated. It seems to have been a pure mistake, due to careless working, with no malice and no confirmation bias involved.

If they had just said, oh sorry we goofed, it would probably have blown over. But they were terrified of admitting to a mistake, because they were supposed to be infallible, and doing that would (they believed) undermine fingerprint evidence in general and allow criminals to walk free. They stuck to their guns, and even presented a manipulated print with the part that didn't match the reference print cropped off.

Of course, the way they handled it was much worse in the end - a version of the Streisand Effect. At one point one of the fingerprint boffins actually said in court that fingerprint identification was just a matter of opinion anyway, which caused every other country in the world to have a collective heart attack. And then it turned out that they hadn't just misidentified Shirley's fingerprint, but the damning print on the biscuit tin was also an error. Alternative methodology that also looked for differences between the prints was shown to be more reliable. I don't think that dense Fiona McBride bird ever backed down though. If that was what was producing evidence to go before the courts, God help us all.

Shirley McKie's persecution was so notorious we tend to forget about David Asbury who was wrongly convicted for that murder on the basis of flawed fingerprint identification. If they hadn't screwed up on Shirley's print at the same time, and Shirley hadn't refused to back down, he would certainly still be in jail.

How many others are there in that category, I wonder?

All that stuff about US pressure is interesting because it was rumoured at the time, but no fingerprint evidence was ever brought to court in the Lockerbie trial. One of the first things the SNP government did when it came to power was to withdraw the case against Shirley and pay her compensation. Many of us thought they would act to resolve the wrongful conviction in the Lockerbie case as well, but they did quite the opposite - they seem to have acted to prevent the resolution that was on the way.

Then we reconsider how Shirley's case was handled, and realise that although they backed off and paid compensation, the effect of that was to prevent the errors being scrutinised in court. The handling of the Lockerbie case also prevented the errors being scrutinised in court.

Meh. And I actually support these guys. :(

Rolfe.
 
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Then if they were innocent they should have pressed for the new trial and let the prosecution lose or abdicate.

Very easy to say from somewhere other than death row. I outlined possible reasons why someone innocent would take a deal like this in a previous post.
 
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From a link to an AP article, given on page 1 of the thread.

"I am innocent of these charges but I am entering an Alford guilty plea," Echols told the judge. Baldwin and Miskelley also reasserted their innocence.

"Although I am innocent, this plea is in my best interest," Misskelley said....


Checkmite keps saying the defendants were lying when they "pleaded guilty". Where's the lie in the above?

Rolfe.
 
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Stilicho is currently giving his opinion on this discussion on the Perugia Murder File forum, after having apparently abandoned this thread.

http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewto...8ef2471bcdccf274fcf04a98aa6&start=2000#p95722

Apparently JREF posters believe the prosecution "tricked" the three men into pleading guilty. Then, "It's a worthless argument since if the prosecution case was as flimsy as argued then none of the defence lawyers would have deemed it acceptable."

I don't suppose we'll know for sure what he means unless he returns to this thread to explain himself, but he seems to be suggesting that if the case was a flimsy as we believe, the defence team would have advised their clients to stay on death row for another couple of years, and take their chances that they didn't end up with another jury filled with hang-em-high rednecks.

I find the irrationality of that position quite astounding. Of course, if the case wasn't that flimsy, the prosecution would never have considered offering a deal like that to defendants who were in jail and hadn't even won the right to a re-trial as yet.

Rolfe.
 
Yes, I would have. I would've objected effervescently to the state putting the responsibility on me for saving the life of someone they put on death row, and through my lawyer I would've made sure the world knew precisely why I was telling the prosecution where to stick their Faustian BS.

If I'm playing chess and I see mate in two, and the guy I'm playing suddenly offers a draw, I don't take it.


I think that needs to go in the context of the link above.

Peter Jackson said:
The last two weeks have been very tense, because the State told the three defense teams that they would consider an "Alford Plea" - but it had to be "all or nothing". All three men had to accept the conditions of the plea - if one refused, they would all stay in prison, probably for another 2 to 3 years, until their inevitable retrial, which would have almost certainly found them innocent. When he received the plea offer, Jason Baldwin refused to accept it. And why the hell should he? He's an innocent man, who has had the last 18 years - half his life - robbed by the State of Arkansas. This was a brave and noble stand by Jason, but it created a very tough time for Damien, and his loved ones.

You see, Damien Echols had to get out of prison, Alford Plea or not. Unlike Jason, Damien has spent the full 18 years on death row. He has not seen sky for over 10 years. He has not had sun on his skin for over 10 years. He is shackled hand and foot whenever he leaves his cell. His eyesight has deteriorated. Look at this morning's press conference - see how Damien has his hand over his mouth? It's because he has severe continual dental pain, and has had for years. On Arkansas death row, the only serious dental care they offer is extraction. No point killing men with nice new crowns. Everyone who knows Damien, has been fearful for his health. He's very weak, and frail - and has limited ability to fight off any infection. Up there in the Varner Unit death row, they don't tend to be as interested in basic medical care as your family doctor.

For several nerve-wracking days, Jason was saying no to the "Alford Plea", but he has been confined in a different, much less severe prison environment and had no contact with Damien. Damien's lawyer wrote to Jason, several friends talked with him. They explained Damien's situation to Jason, and he immediately agreed to change his mind. Jason is a decent guy, and did the right thing for his friend, just as he did many years ago when he was offered a much reduced sentence if he testified against Damien. He refused then - because he knows Damien is innocent, as he is - and he wasn't going to take the bait and sell out his friend. He's been in prison ever since as a result.

Why would you take this "Alford Plea" if you were innocent, if you had a strong possibility that the convictions would be overturned at a retrial? I can answer that - because a retrial would take at least two years, and if the convictions were overturned, the State would likely appeal and the process would drag on for several more years. And all this time you are relying on getting a fair hearing from a State justice system that has not served you well during the last 18 years. Last year you finally get a glimmer of hope when the case is heard by a judge who has no vested interest in the original verdict, but who's to say that judge will still be there in several years time? The whole thing is just too fragile, along with a total lack of trust and belief in the justice system of Arkansas. I know what I would do in their position.


I think some people around here need to grow a little humanity.

Rolfe.
 
I think some people around here need to grow a little humanity.

It's almost like they want a trail by ordeal. If they lie to live free, they are guilty. If they are honest and live in prison for the rest of their lives or are executed, they are honorable and innocent.
 
lack of good medical or dental care

Stilicho is currently giving his opinion on this discussion on the Perugia Murder File forum, after having apparently abandoned this thread.

http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewto...8ef2471bcdccf274fcf04a98aa6&start=2000#p95722

Apparently JREF posters believe the prosecution "tricked" the three men into pleading guilty. Then, "It's a worthless argument since if the prosecution case was as flimsy as argued then none of the defence lawyers would have deemed it acceptable."
Rolfe,

I don't think that anyone tricked the WM3 into accepting the deal, and I don't see anyone else saying that, either. I think that it was a tough decision for them, but I believe it was the right decision for them under very difficult circumstances. The lack of good medical/dental treatment for death row inmates such as Damien or Ron Williamson (see John Grisham's The Innocent Man) should give everyone sobering pause. MOO.
 
Of course. Nobody has suggested there was any trickery involved. Several people have lucidly explained the details of the deal that was offered to the men, and why they accepted it.

I have noticed JREF posters' positions being misrepresented quite blatantly on that forum in the past, by Stilicho and stint7 among others, but the extension of this beyond the case they are obsessed by struck me as interesting.

Unfortunately they have failed to ask themselves why the prosecution would be at all interested in seeking a deal like that, without even waiting to see whether the men were even going to get the re-trial they were seeking, if there was any credible evidence against them.

Rolfe.
 
I have noticed JREF posters' positions being misrepresented quite blatantly on that forum in the past, by Stilicho and stint7 among others, but the extension of this beyond the case they are obsessed by struck me as interesting.

It looks like they saw which way the wind was blowing on this forum, and decided that whatever is the general view here must be wrong, on the basis that the Knox/Sollecito thread here is generally wrong, and we're generally the sort of people who get things generally wrong.

Not the best example of critical thinking, but that forum is not dedicated to critical thinking (as you can tell by esteemed presence of the astrologer who believes the NIST Report cobbles together "a number of unproven 'possibilities' to arrive at a pre-arranged hypothesis") so there's no particular reason why that's a bad thing for them.
 
I saw it more as a general viewpoint that there is pretty much no such thing as a miscarriage of justice, and everyone who has ever been jailed for a murder has always been factually guilty. We see that from some people here as well, but they seem to have deserted this thread since its early pages.

One feature of this case which weighs very heavily is the demonisation of the accused in ways which are not directly related to the crime. This plays on an irrational attitude which goes, well, if that's the sort of person they were, then obviously they are guilty. How can you say that monster didn't do it when

he lied on his CV/she had a lot of empty bottles in her rubbish bin/he was travelling on a false passport/just look at that photo of him in a balaclava waving a toy gun!/he wrote down numbers of cars that annoyed him/he's Irish!

All these are real cases of course and I'm sure everyone could produce a lot more. The same reasoning is prominent in jharyn's posts, insofar as that could be called reasoning.

The difficulty is that if there was actual evidence suggesting these people had committed the crimes, these facts might have been relevant and supported the case for guilt (well OK, maybe not the CV one). What too many people forget, including prosecutors, is that these things are only relevant after you have proved some guilty association with the actual crime. Otherwise, we might as well just go and round up anybody at all with a slightly questionable background and indict them for any particular crime, and if they don't have a solid alibi then fine, case closed.

I don't know if we'll ever see the general public saying, well OK he's a suspicious character, but where is the evidence he did this???

extrashot said:
My mum, who saw only bits of what was in the media at the time of the trial, simply said, "There's something not right about that girl" - enough for her!


God help anyone who get's extrashot's Mum on their jury, that's all I can say. Which is kind of why the WM3 did the right thing in taking that deal.

Rolfe.
 
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I think that needs to go in the context of the link above.




I think some people around here need to grow a little humanity.

Rolfe.

That's a really good and important point.

I was discussing the case yesterday with a large group of people. What I found interesting is that not only did all but one person say they would take the deal, several people said they would take the deal even if they knew they had a 100% chance of ultimately being exonerrated, just so they could get out of prison/death row as soon as possible and not have to spend possibly years more in prison while the hearing, new trial, etc was being established.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know what it was that made the media, celebrities, etc take note of this particular case? It's not like there aren't many others in similar situations (i.e. being imprisoned with very little to no evidence).
 
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Out of curiosity, does anyone know what it was that made the media, celebrities, etc take note of this particular case? It's not like there aren't many others in similar situations (i.e. being imprisoned with very little to no evidence).

I don't know for sure, but I think it was the horrific nature of the crimes, combined with the sensational 'satanic rock' implication & the relative youth of the alleged perpetrators of such horrible actions.
 
Not what they were expecting

Out of curiosity, does anyone know what it was that made the media, celebrities, etc take note of this particular case? It's not like there aren't many others in similar situations (i.e. being imprisoned with very little to no evidence).
Schrodinger's Cat,

The HBO documentary Paradise Lost might have been part of it. From what I recall reading, the documentarians went there to do a "what is wrong with today's youth" story, and IMO they ended up with a "what is wrong with today's adults" story.
 
The thing that gets me the most is that the prosecution and police have been, and still are, so blinded in this case that they have let the real murder walk. Surely it is their job to find the real killer and not just find someone they can intimidate into confessing and then lock up to have "solved" it. By simply looking for people to lock up for it to tick the "solved" box they have not only ruined three lives, but they have failed to protect society against an actual triple murderer. Worse still, instead of admitting they screwed up and finding the real killer and getting him off the streets, they again have failed to actually do their jobs and instead just want to close the book on it. Absolutely pathetic.
 
The thing that gets me the most is that the prosecution and police have been, and still are, so blinded in this case that they have let the real murder walk. Surely it is their job to find the real killer and not just find someone they can intimidate into confessing and then lock up to have "solved" it. By simply looking for people to lock up for it to tick the "solved" box they have not only ruined three lives, but they have failed to protect society against an actual triple murderer. Worse still, instead of admitting they screwed up and finding the real killer and getting him off the streets, they again have failed to actually do their jobs and instead just want to close the book on it. Absolutely pathetic.
You can throw in the original trial judge, David Burnett, into that same fire. His handling of the trials, and subsequent appeals, is nothing short of evil. Now he's a state congressman, which while bad for the state of Arkansas, at least removed his roadblock to getting these men freed.
 
The thing that gets me the most is that the prosecution and police have been, and still are, so blinded in this case that they have let the real murder walk. Surely it is their job to find the real killer and not just find someone they can intimidate into confessing and then lock up to have "solved" it. By simply looking for people to lock up for it to tick the "solved" box they have not only ruined three lives, but they have failed to protect society against an actual triple murderer. Worse still, instead of admitting they screwed up and finding the real killer and getting him off the streets, they again have failed to actually do their jobs and instead just want to close the book on it. Absolutely pathetic.

I think that it's the most galling aspect of it all. As a fan of heavy metal, I am thoroughly sympathetic towards the injustice committed against the three accused, but this whole "let's free them and yet close the case" thing reeks so much of hypocrisy, I want to puke. If they really believed the WM3 to be the murderers, they would have never let them go, but that would only mean the real triple murderer is still out there and they are doing jack **** to stop it.
 
The thing that gets me the most is that the prosecution and police have been, and still are, so blinded in this case that they have let the real murder walk. Surely it is their job to find the real killer and not just find someone they can intimidate into confessing and then lock up to have "solved" it. By simply looking for people to lock up for it to tick the "solved" box they have not only ruined three lives, but they have failed to protect society against an actual triple murderer. Worse still, instead of admitting they screwed up and finding the real killer and getting him off the streets, they again have failed to actually do their jobs and instead just want to close the book on it. Absolutely pathetic.

Agreed in spades. The statements made by the prosecutors in this case to "justify" offering the deal make the case sound like a game of chess.
 
The thing that gets me the most is that the prosecution and police have been, and still are, so blinded in this case that they have let the real murder walk. Surely it is their job to find the real killer and not just find someone they can intimidate into confessing and then lock up to have "solved" it. By simply looking for people to lock up for it to tick the "solved" box they have not only ruined three lives, but they have failed to protect society against an actual triple murderer. Worse still, instead of admitting they screwed up and finding the real killer and getting him off the streets, they again have failed to actually do their jobs and instead just want to close the book on it. Absolutely pathetic.

You're so right. They really seem to be treating this as just a game they want to win rather than caring the least bit about those poor murdered kids and their community.
 

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