• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Richard Gage Blueprint for Truth Rebuttals on YouTube by Chris Mohr

Status
Not open for further replies.
Since it took them years to come up with the report and they will not disclose any of their data inputs used in the modelling, I for one think they are lying or at the very least are being deceitful.


And yet you think that CTBUH are honest and intelligent, just that they are "brainwashed". Ignoring the fact that this is a contradiction, why can't NIST be brainwashed like you imagine every expert is who doesnt agree with your tiny fringe opinion?
 
We mustn't forget that NIST makes only a probable conclusion in its investigation and can do no more. I therefore find it amazing that people believe what they say at all....oh yes, it's because they are the so called 'experts' with years of training therefore they must be speaking the truth.

Nope. We do not just blindly take them at their word, we look at the data and evaluate their hypotheses. You're just bitter because the evidence supports the mainstream conclusion, is all.

they will not disclose any of their data inputs used in the modelling

False. No further comment required.



Firstly, their assumption that the internal structure of the building fell to pieces to leave a shell is just ludicrous in the extreme.

Since that's not what they say, I agree your caricature is ludicrous. Your strawman seems to fool you though ;)

Since the connections between internal elements (columns, beams, bracing) are the same as the connections to the outer frame, how can the outer frame stay standing while all else disintegrates, then and only then, causing the outer frame to fall in one piece (or as a single unit as NIST describes it - and I agree). How can inextricably linked structural pieces break apart and yet stay intact all at the same time?

It seems you haven't read the report....:rolleyes: Instead of incompetently paraphrasing them, why don't you quote something from the report and critique it honestly?



And NIST makes no effort to explain how all the exterior columns could buckle simultaneously

False. They do explain it. In detail. Why don't you read the report? You might learn something....

My children (ages 3, 7 and 9) can see and understand that between watching cartoons, as could any person off the street. But for some reason, the debunking fraternity chooses not to accept it,

I've got a great idea! Since you truthers insist that children know better than PhD engineers, why don't we appoint 3,7 and 9 year old children to head up the next investigation? :boggled:
 
Last edited:
alienentity....

Chapter 2 Section 2.4

....."The exterior façade on the east quarter of the building was just a hollow shell.
The failure of the interior columns then proceeded toward the west. Truss 2 (Figure 1–6) failed, hit by the debris from the falling floors. This caused Column 77 and Column 78 to fail, followed shortly by Column 76. Each north-south line of three core columns then buckled in succession from east to west, due to loss of lateral support from floor system failures, to the forces exerted by falling debris, which
22 NIST NCSTAR 1A, WTC Investigation
tended to push the columns westward, and to the loads redistributed to them from the buckled columns. Within seconds, the entire building core was buckling.
The global collapse of WTC 7 was underway. The shell of exterior columns buckled between the 7th and 14th floors, as loads were redistributed to these columns due to the downward movement of the building core and the floors. The entire building above the buckled-column region then moved downward as a single unit, completing the global collapse sequence."
 
alienentity....

Chapter 2 section 2.4

....."The entire building above the buckled-column region then moved downward as a single unit, completing the global collapse sequence."
 
alienentity...

It is you who doesn't understand structures or structural reports and investigations. Then again why should you, you're a sound man for a recording studio.

At least I used to be an architect.

And no, the mainstream hypothesis doesn't fit the observed data, except for the bit about the building falling as a single unit.
 
Last edited:
alienentity....

Chapter 2 section 2.4

....."The entire building above the buckled-column region then moved downward as a single unit, completing the global collapse sequence."
....."The exterior façade on the east quarter of the building was just a hollow shell.

Is this SPAM?
 
alienentity...

It is you who doesn't understand structures or structural reports and investigations. Then again why should you, you're a sound man for a recording studio.

At least I used to be an architect.

And no, the mainstream hypothesis doesn't fit the observed data, except for the bit about the building falling as a single unit.

:dl:
 
An 8 year old would not understand the complexity of engineering, but instead would enjoy watching a simple cartoon. You are actually arguing that NIST should have created a simple cartoon and pretended it mimicked a complex event. You can understand this by asking yourself the question 'Is it possible for an engineering model to exactly duplicate millions of random interactions between components as the collapse progresses?'

If your answer is 'yes', please explain, in technical terms, how.
If 'no', then you agree with NIST engineers (whom you have just insulted without any respect, like a petulant 8 year old child) who wrote:

NCSTAR 1-9 Volume 2, pp 599 - 600
'12.5.2 Aspects Following the Collapse Initiation

Once simulation of the global collapse of WTC 7 was underway, there was a great increase in the uncertainty in the progression of the collapse sequence, due to the random nature of the interaction, break up, disintegration, and falling of the debris. the uncertainties deriving from these random processes increasingly influenced the deterministic physics-based collapse process, and the details of the progression of the horizontal failure and final global collapse were increasingly less precise.

One must always read the fine print lest you miss the important details. The most relevant thing you can learn from the collapse is that the model demonstrated that the building could indeed collapse from fire alone; and it showed this in engineering terms, with full documentation that is published and available for scrutiny. The goal was not to create a picture-perfect, Pixar™-style, child-friendly cartoon for people who are too intellectually lazy to actually understand the issues.

If you continue to show zero respect for this kind of work, you reveal yourself as a person whose opinion is rather worthless.

Let's look for one second at what they say "In Stage 2, the north face descended at GRAVITATIONAL ACCELERATION, as the buckled columns provided negligible support to the upper portion of the north face. This FREE FALL DROP continued for approximately 8 stories or 32.0m (105ft), the distance traveled between times t=1.75s and t=4.0s." (all caps is mine)

There's one and only one explanation for this. . Simultaneous and instantaneous column failure.
This is flat-out incorrect. The empirical evidence shows that, following the progressive internal collapse which began roughly 8 seconds previously, the exterior columns of the shell buckled during the initial phase of the 'global collapse'. For some inexplicable reason you omitted all of this empirical information, which of course invalidates your conclusion!
So, in fact, the initial phase, approx. 1.74 seconds, is the interval in which the columns buckled. You see, we know this because the acceleration was <g, which corresponds precisely with the buckling phase.
Your use of the word 'instantaneous' is technically incorrect, 1.74 seconds is not 'instantaneous', nor do you follow NIST's own data and observations. You would do well to remain on the path of technical competence and simply pay attention to the data!

Stage 2, as you correctly copied from NIST (you seem to trust them only here, for some odd reason....;) ) was the period following the buckling where there was no discernible resistance.

Then came Stage 3, where resistance was again encountered. This phase saw a return to the <g acceleration.

The correct conclusion from this data is that the columns buckled (resistance), and then there was essentially no resistance for about 2.25 seconds.

Let's break it down another way:

Out of the 3 stages of the partial view, 2 out of 3 occurred below the acceleration of gravity. The initial phase was 77% as long as the 2nd phase, the 3rd phase was 62% that length.
In total, the period of acceleration nearest g was about 42% of the portion that can be viewed in that video clip.

Conclusion: Resistance was observed for 58% of the clip, a majority of the time. Had the fall of the building been instantaneous, then the initial phase (Stage 1) would have been at g. This did not happen, therefore we can prove, using the data, that the global failure of the external columns was NOT instantaneous.

Your statement is false, based on the evidence.

Further destroying a plausible controlled demolition scenario, there were NO explosions of any kind recorded on any videos taken as WTC 7 collapsed. Thus, unless one argues that ALL the video cameras malfunctioned at that time (a rather amusing hypothesis, dontcha think?), we can safely conclude that there WERE NO EXPLOSIONS at that time.

Without explosions at that precise moment, you have no controlled demolition. It's really that simple.





Maybe you actually believe what you wrote, but nobody else will. It's a shameless strawman argument. Of COURSE explosions were heard, some of them have been recorded by video cameras, and I have videos on my channel dedicated to them.

Your argument 'if we hear an explosion on a video it can never ever be an explosion' is meaningless gibberish. What you are trying to argue, through the back door (I guess you're too shy to actually make the argument on its own merits) is that 'every explosion must be caused by a high explosive demolition charge'.
Of course you know, and we know, that this argument is a false argument, as nobody can prove exactly what caused these explosions. You don't even know where they came from, so what is the point of arguing that they were cutter charges? They might have emanated from the rubble of WTC 1 or 2, they might have come from the street. How on earth could you possibly know which is which?

You are left making a nonsense argument in protest, while completely failing to explain in any satisfactory manner how random explosions post- tower collapse are 'proof' of explosive CD of WTC 7.

I agree, people have some very strange views of the events, and I believe yours qualify as some of the strangest, most illogical and unsupported of the lot. :D

Damage to a huge building occurs locally at a specific time. Essentially total damage occurred locally throughout the HUGE building in less than 20 seconds along with an uninterrupted and even/smooth descent.

Real collapse, without preplanned intervention, is ugly and haphazard.
 
Real collapse, without preplanned intervention, is ugly and haphazard.


well it was so what is your point? and I'll also ask for you too show us why collapse has to be ugly and haphazard....I know of no "law" that requires that. Oh and you might want to define what you mean by ugly and haphazard. Certainly ugliness is often in the eyes of the beholder.
 
....."The exterior façade on the east quarter of the building was just a hollow shell.

What part of 'East Quarter' do you not understand.
You paraphrased NIST incorrectly 'internal structure of the building fell to pieces to leave a shell'. That's not what NIST writes. Your quotemining above proves this and debunks your argument...


The shell of exterior columns buckled between the 7th and 14th floors, as loads were redistributed to these columns due to the downward movement of the building core and the floors.

Hmm, where does it say that the entire shell was hollow? Nowhere, except in your mind.
Plus, the moment frame of exterior wall was indeed capable of standing, at least for a time, while the collapse progressed internally.

Why do you claim that the building was hollow? Because part of it was?:covereyes

That's like saying the building fell at freefall speed, so all support must've been removed simultaneously and instantaneously! :eek:

We're back to square one with the truther talking points. They (and you) still don't understand the reports, yet they rely on them for their arguments... that's weird!!
 
Last edited:
What part of 'East Quarter' do you not understand.
You paraphrased NIST incorrectly 'internal structure of the building fell to pieces to leave a shell'. That's not what NIST writes. Your quotemining above proves this and debunks your argument...




Hmm, where does it say that the entire shell was hollow? Nowhere, except in your mind.
Plus, the moment frame of exterior wall was indeed capable of standing, at least for a time, while the collapse progressed internally.

Why do you claim that the building was hollow? Because part of it was?:covereyes

That's like saying the building fell at freefall speed, so all support must've been removed simultaneously and instantaneously! :eek:

We're back to square one with the truther talking points. They (and you) still don't understand the reports, yet they rely on them for their arguments... that's weird!!

Tell me, how did the entire internal structure between floors 7 and 14 fall to pieces to leave a hollow shell between this section yet the outer walls of this stayed up long enough to stay intact? You still haven't answered this bit? How can all the internal columns magically fall apart yet the external structure stays together to leave a shell? NIST just says it happened - wow, these Phd guys are clever at explaining things.

Or the bit about simultaneous collapse of the external columns. Remember, had they failed randomly and chaotically then the building would have rotated and fallen sideways. It didn't do this.
 
Last edited:
I first want to thank Chris Mohr for the work he did putting together this rebuttal. I want to address a few issues from part 19, if I may. Those angry quotes from 9/11 Commission members had nothing to do with their belief it was an 'inside job'. Any obfuscation from the Bush administration stemmed from: (1) trying to cover up any incompetence in, and breakdown of communication between, the intelligence agencies; and (2), most crucially, wanting to suppress the key motive the terrorists had for the attack - US support for Israel.

This is my first post, so I can't give the links to two very important videos that I want to show you. But, the point is, these conspiracy theories have been a massive distraction from the lies that are in front of our eyes. The Bush administration was telling a contradictory story to that of the intelligence agencies. I live in England, and our prime minister at the time, Tony Blair, was at pains to tell everyone the attack stemmed from 'hatred of our freedoms' and 'radical ideology'. When, in fact, the attack was purely political and designed to influence foreign policy.

Read the official transcripts of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's testimony - he talks about US support for Israel being the 'central' thing. This fact did make it into the Commission Report on page 147, but no recommendation was given to review this policy.

Anyway, thanks to anyone who has taken the time to read this. Peace.
 
I first want to thank Chris Mohr for the work he did putting together this rebuttal. I want to address a few issues from part 19, if I may. Those angry quotes from 9/11 Commission members had nothing to do with their belief it was an 'inside job'. Any obfuscation from the Bush administration stemmed from: (1) trying to cover up any incompetence in, and breakdown of communication between, the intelligence agencies; and (2), most crucially, wanting to suppress the key motive the terrorists had for the attack - US support for Israel.

This is my first post, so I can't give the links to two very important videos that I want to show you. But, the point is, these conspiracy theories have been a massive distraction from the lies that are in front of our eyes. The Bush administration was telling a contradictory story to that of the intelligence agencies. I live in England, and our prime minister at the time, Tony Blair, was at pains to tell everyone the attack stemmed from 'hatred of our freedoms' and 'radical ideology'. When, in fact, the attack was purely political and designed to influence foreign policy.

Read the official transcripts of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's testimony - he talks about US support for Israel being the 'central' thing. This fact did make it into the Commission Report on page 147, but no recommendation was given to review this policy.

Anyway, thanks to anyone who has taken the time to read this. Peace.

Post the links and just change the xtension to dot com instead of .com. I'll post the live links for you.
 
Last edited:
Real collapse, without preplanned intervention, is ugly and haphazard.

Yes, your original 'instantaneous' argument has failed. Why not move on to another canard?

Usually when buildings collapse spontaneously nobody is around to film them.
But the 30 story building in Belem, Brazil collapsed completely without fire or even earthquake.

That must've been CD as well, I suppose... Since it collapsed mostly in its footprint:rolleyes:
 
Post the links and just change the xtension to dot com instead of .com. I'll post the live links for you.

It wouldn't let me do it that way either, so I've just posted the end part. They're YouTube videos. Thank you.

watch?v=J1bm2GPoFfg

watch?v=D7EB1FxENxQ
 
Tell me, how did the entire internal structure between floors 7 and 14 fall to pieces to leave a hollow shell between this section yet the outer walls of this stayed up long enough to stay intact? You still haven't answered this bit? How can all the internal columns magically fall apart yet the external structure stays together to leave a shell? NIST just says it happened - wow, these Phd guys are clever at explaining things.

Or the bit about simultaneous collapse of the external columns. Remember, had they failed randomly and chaotically then the building would have rotated and fallen sideways. It didn't do this.

All the lateral connections to the outer walls were progressively scoured away leaving the walls standing erect if a little surprised.
 
Tell me, how did the entire internal structure between floors 7 and 14 fall to pieces to leave a hollow shell between this section yet the outer walls of this stayed up long enough to stay intact? You still haven't answered this bit? How can all the internal columns magically fall apart yet the external structure stays together to leave a shell? NIST just says it happened - wow, these Phd guys are clever at explaining things.

Or the bit about simultaneous collapse of the external columns. Remember, had they failed randomly and chaotically then the building would have rotated and fallen sideways. It didn't do this.

Your attempt to describe the collapse belies your lack of insight. No big whoop. You are not an engineer, why would you understand everything about it?
That doesn't mean that
a) NIST is wrong
b) NIST engineers are incompetent
c) The building was CD'd by a stealth method leaving no evidence

It just means that
d) You don't get it.

This issue has been discussed many times on other threads, you should do some reading.
Hint: the internal collapse progressed very quickly, and since there was a mass of material falling, it would tend to 'pull' the exterior inwards, depending on the integrity of connections to the exterior.
The North facade was not damaged, so there was no reason for it to behave the same way as the South face. Remember, you can't see the South face, floors 7-14, on any video, so you don't know that the exterior columns failed simultaneously.
That is an assumption without data. The only real data we have is that the building tilted to the South as it fell, which is not symmetrical and implies a different moment of failure (even if it was in milliseconds) for part of the exterior.

By refusing to see this, you prevent yourself from being able to perceive things which are not difficult to comprehend.
One has to conclude that your confirmation bias is too strong to allow you to simply accept data as it is.

If you would stop trying to impose an artificial CD on the collapse it would assist your understanding, IMO. There is simply NO evidence of CD to be had, no matter where you look. It isn't there.

The CD Emperor of 9/11 truth has no clothes.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom