MIHOP -femr2 and Major Tom's WTC1,2,7 Demolition Hypotheses

It's clear you haven't bothered to read, or understand, any of the WTC7 trace data presented.

Perhaps if you can find a way to look at it from another direction....

What part of the presentation of WTC7 trace data leads you to think otherwise ? What part of criticising the accuracy/quality/... of the NIST trace data is it that gets you confused ? What assertion based upon the WTC7 trace data have I made which does NOT "seem to be adding evidence to confirm NIST's findings" ?

This a CT forum, if you are not asserting a CT or debunking one, why are you here?
Is it just to show how smart you think you are? Wouldn't it be more productive to use this intelligence to debunk the CT rather than nitpick NIST?
 
Yes.
Recall I set a framework for explanation. I will only outline the explanation I would give to a layperson who is genuinely looking for an explanation.

So "Stage 1" explanation:
.

Truncated by me.

We differ on your opinion on F2's evasive tactics...but not on this point/post.

Excellent summarization.

Excellent post.
 
This a CT forum, if you are not asserting a CT or debunking one, why are you here?

The eternal question posed to f2 and mt.

If I recall correctly, they're going to get to the conspiracy portion of their discussion as soon as us unwashed, idiot masses have ascended to their level of consiousness and intellect.
 
Yes.
Recall I set a framework for explanation. I will only outline the explanation I would give to a layperson who is genuinely looking for an explanation.

So "Stage 1" explanation:
An aircraft struck the tower, caused damage which weakened the structure and started fires.

Fires were not fought for a number of reasons and caused further damage to accumulate.

Some time elapses then the fire and impact damage affected zone is so weakened that it collapses allowing the top block of the tower to start to fall.

From that moment the complete collapse of the towers is inevitable. I can give details if needed.

Prima facie the impact plus fire damage caused the collapse.

What more do you want?


The "interested layperson" may have heard stories about demolition.

At this early stage that one is easy:
"there is no evidence for demolition other than partial bits of claims made by conspiracy theorists. It is now 10 years and if there had been any truth in demolition it would have been published before now."

No point in opening the collection of truther falsehoods to confuse an honest layperson making genuine enquiries.

The content of "Stage 2" depends on what questions the "interested layperson" raises. There are many possible tracks. Hence my reluctance to try to either summarise or list it all.

If you are able to take on the role of "interested layperson" then put some questions that a genuinely interested layperson could ask. If not we can call the halt right now.
So what? Why does that claim matter to my "interested layperson"???
I said I would explain to an interested layperson - so no way will I comply with your unique style of logic...:)

My "interested layperson" does not know about NIST. And I do not suffer from/am not limited by your repeated confusion of objectives. The last thing I would do to my "interested layperson" is push him towards a secondary objective of "prove NIST wrong". His interest is "why did the towers collapse?" NOT "was the official report correct?" - that may arise as a secondary matter at Stage 2 or later.

Your need is not for evidence - rather for a coherent legitimate process of logic which joins the bits of available evidence. That method of linking the available evidence needs to be free from your preset bias towards CD plus your tactic of limiting the evidence to those bits of visual material which suit your approach.

There is no prima facie case that the collapses were anything other than "natural".

So if your objective is "introduce CD" you need to establish a prima facie case as step one. And for efficiency I suggest that you set aside the technical investigations into ever more minute details. Look to the domains of "Strategic - Why Do It?"; "Logistic Improbabilities" and "Security Impossibilities" because no matter what you "prove" in the technical domain the barriers in each of those other domains will individually block whatever technical findings. And, when combined, they make the task as close to impossible as we can claim in a para-scientific environment.

And if your objective is pursue the technical details then, as a matter of personal interest OK but don't imagine it can lead further. It will never get you to the real issues facing any claim for CD. Those real issues cannot be overcome by technical analysis.

# oysteinbookmark
This and preceding 2 posts by M_T and oz.
Excellent, accessible summary of oz's strategic approach.
 
Truncated by me.

We differ on your opinion on F2's evasive tactics...but not on this point/post.

Excellent summarization.

Excellent post.
Thank you.
thumbup.gif


# oysteinbookmark
This and preceding 2 posts by M_T and oz.
Excellent, accessible summary of oz's strategic approach.
Thank you also
clap.gif
 
Yes.
From that moment the complete collapse of the towers is inevitable. I can give details if needed.

Obviously. That is where your "proof" would be.

Inevitability of collapse initiation. Could you please show me or explain to me where that proof is.

Do you believe it is in the NIST reports? Is that where to find it?
 
SHORTER VERSION OF THE ABOVE POST

There was no CD.

If anyone wants to claim that there was it is up to them to prove their claim.

They will never prove such a claim by remaining in the domain of technical details.

And my previous post wrapped that lot in an explanation of how I would explain the Twin Towers collapses to an "interested layperson" who, naturally has no pre-set biases.

:) :rolleyes:

I asked you for evidence that you claimed to have.

Do you have evidence of the inevitability of the collapse initiations of any of the 3 buildings?
 
The eternal question posed to f2 and mt.

If I recall correctly, they're going to get to the conspiracy portion of their discussion as soon as us unwashed, idiot masses have ascended to their level of consiousness and intellect.


Then shouldn't they be removed as being off topic? If they are only going to argue about how many angels can dance on a pinhead regarding whether or not NIST got it exactly right (which I don't think they ever claimed to do so) they have nothing of value to add to these discussions.
 
I asked you for evidence that you claimed to have.

Do you have evidence of the inevitability of the collapse initiations of any of the 3 buildings?

They collapsed! what more proof could you want! Would they collapsed if the damage, Fires or design been a little different. Perhaps not.

Could have been designed so that they wouldn't have collapsed? Possibly.


But they were what they were on 911 and they did collapse. Even if NIST were 100% wrong it makes zero difference to the reality of what happened.
Now if you have a problem with NISTs work, take it up with them because unless you are asserting a CT you are wasting your and our time here.
 
Then shouldn't they be removed as being off topic? If they are only going to argue about how many angels can dance on a pinhead regarding whether or not NIST got it exactly right (which I don't think they ever claimed to do so) they have nothing of value to add to these discussions.

Correct.
 
Obviously. That is where your "proof" would be.

Inevitability of collapse initiation. Could you please show me or explain to me where that proof is.

Do you believe it is in the NIST reports? Is that where to find it?

Look up Tom.

Maybe you can see his point sailing over your head.
 
Obviously. That is where your "proof" would be.

Inevitability of collapse initiation. Could you please show me or explain to me where that proof is.

Do you believe it is in the NIST reports? Is that where to find it?

you have lost the plot already Major_Tom. Read again the relevant bits:
...Recall I set a framework for explanation. I will only outline the explanation I would give to a layperson who is genuinely looking for an explanation.

So "Stage 1" explanation:
DETAILS OMMITTED

The content of "Stage 2" depends on what questions the "interested layperson" raises. There are many possible tracks. Hence my reluctance to try to either summarise or list it all...
I have shown the "interested layperson" the prima facie case for natural collapse. The "Inevitability of collapse initiation" is confused thinking - the collapses initiated so "inevitability" is hardly the issue. At this stage the "interested layperson" knows that.
So recalling my "rules of engagement":
...If you are able to take on the role of "interested layperson" then put some questions that a genuinely interested layperson could ask. If not we can call the halt right now.
 
We are so accustomed to discussing these events on the ground the truthers set. Rebutting silly piece of a picture claims for example.

It is so easy to forget the basics. There has never been a prima facie case for anything other than natural causes....allowing that by "natural" we mean the unaided consequences of flying an aircraft into a tower.

We give them round one by even agreeeing to discuss "unnatural" - before they make their prima facie case that is.

The analogy to "creationism" v "evolution" is apt and all the silly give the two sides equal hearings.

There ain't two sides to creation v evolution

...and sure as hell there ain't two sides to the collapses at WTC on 9/11.

When 9/11 happened I believed every word I was told on TV. Why wouldn't I when so many impressive people were lining up to tell me about how the top block fell and crushed the lower opart of the building down to the ground. Plus I could see it on TV with my own ayes all day every day. That's my prima facie case. Me and milions upon millions of other.

Many of those millions and millions never questioned it again. But I had a second look after my interest was aroused by a few little things, chief among them being a National Geographic documentary that said that the building was supported exclusively by the perimeter walls. So I watched the videos again with more critical eyes and here I am.
 
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...But I had a second look after my suspicions were aroused by a few little things, chief among them being a National Geographic deocumentary that said that the building was supported exclusively by the perimeter walls. So I watched the iodeos again with more critical eyes and here I am.

Was that a true statement, in your judgement?
 
that the building was supported exclusively by the perimeter walls.

You're perhaps referring to these perimiter walls?

272_flight11_hole2050081722-9132.jpg


I find that when using something to support something else, it's useful to actually have that something exist.
 
Was that a true statement, in your judgement?

That is what I recall . Perhaps I misheard. All I know is that that was the precursor to my 9/11 research.

PS. At the time I didn't know for sure that the statement was incorrect.It seemed ighly unlikely to me but I still believed it. As I said ..y wouldn't I at that time ?
 
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That is what I recall . Perhaps I misheard. All I know is that that was the precursor to my 9/11 research.

PS. At the time I didn't know for sure that the statement was incorrect.It seemed ighly unlikely to me but I still believed it. As I said ..y wouldn't I at that time ?

So your entire twooferism might be based on a mistake by you or by a person talking on a documentary?

That is so sad.....I've seen that doc. and don't recall that error but I already knew how the building was constructed within a day or two of 911 so I may have simply ignored as just another silly error on TV.
 
That is what I recall . Perhaps I misheard. All I know is that that was the precursor to my 9/11 research.

PS. At the time I didn't know for sure that the statement was incorrect.It seemed ighly unlikely to me but I still believed it. As I said ..y wouldn't I at that time ?

Which documentary was it?
 

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