Missile??

Tell me you're 100% certain no weapon exists what would help with penetration, in the time allotted? It would have to puncture quickly no doubt, but to say it doesn't exist, is not something any one can say.

I am 100% certain that no weapon exists that would help with penetration in the time allotted. Looks like I can say it.


Here are the two videos again http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wc4wsjKbYTQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-x8fs2sZmas&feature=related

The first is where you can see the an initial flame flash (whatever you want to call it) hence would could be the firing.

The second is where you see something traveling along side the plane and impact the building just before the plane does. Or at the very least would you would call another flash. What are the chances of two anomalies happening like this on the same side of the A/C, that can't possible be related? Because if it wasn't something that was firing, there's no way one could have affected the other, they must have been two separate events.

There is nothing travelling alongside the aircraft. There is no flash before impact.
 
Have you tried waypastvne's suggestion in post #444? Clear HD video that shows the flash post-impact and no missile. It's much better than these crappy sources you're using.

Let me bump this sentiment again in the hopes that tmd actually looks at the link and uses its frame by frame function rather than blurry highly compressed youtube vids.
Post-impact flash and no flash along the fuselage!
 
Listen I don't what you've read or what you've been told but this ends here. Take a look at these pictures. You can see that the flash, flame or whatever you want to call it, is perfectly circular. Tell me how this is possible if there's already penetration? I'll tell you it's not possible 100% not possible.

You misinterpret BADLY.

On the left most image, you see a rectangular type flashie thingie.
That's a reflection.
On the image next to it, you see a circular flashie thingie.
That's the impact.


PERIOD.
 
Have you tried waypastvne's suggestion in post #444? Clear HD video that shows the flash post-impact and no missile. It's much better than these crappy sources you're using.

He saw it, murmured an expletive under his breath, and ran away from that site as fast as possible.
 
Tell me you're 100% certain no weapon exists what would help with penetration, in the time allotted? It would have to puncture quickly no doubt, but to say it doesn't exist, is not something any one can say.

On the contrary; anyone who is aware of the complement of weapons possessed by the United States (and indeed, most of the industrialized nations of the world) can say with certainty that there is no such weapon in existence at this time. People like, say, military members (such as myself, and leftysergeant, and BStrong in this very thread), who actually WORK WITH weapons, sometimes on a daily basis. THERE IS NO WEAPON THAT CAN BE MODIFIED TO FIRE FROM A PASSENGER JET THAT WOULD BE ARMED IN THE TIME ALLOTTED. Is that clear enough for you?

Missiles do not fit the criteria you have outlined. Other projectile weapons do not fit the criteria you have outlined. THERE IS NO WEAPON IN EXISTENCE CURRENTLY THAT FITS THE INSANE CRITERIA YOU HAVE OUTLINED. The weapon would literally have to arm itself in less than one-quarter of a second, and even if you were able to disable the normal arming procedures to allow it to arm itself quicker (which, as others have pointed out, is impossible), it still could not arm itself that fast.

Here's a challenge for you, tmd; I highly suggest you go on www.fas.org and look up the information they have on all projectile weapons. They gather the information on weapons from all over the world, so you'll find information on everything from handguns to missiles (the unclassified information anyway). You might actually learn something about weaponry, namely that it is impossible, given current technology (much less 2001 technology) to do what you are suggesting. Look up ballistics weapons and kinetic-energy weapons, which are the two types projectile weapons are typically divided into. Once you've done that, take a look again at what you're suggesting happened, and maybe you'll realize that IT IS IMPOSSIBLE. Plain and simple.

Well let me address your point about physical evidence first. If you read through the thread you will see almost no one makes mention of physical evidence or lack there of. There probably is a very good reason for that. Because despite what they may write about me I am very far from being delusional, or lack mental capacity, and they know that which is why they resort to such childish things.

They know there is a simple answer to this. So let's take your premise no physical evidence means it wasn't there. That's basically what your[sic] saying right? So you realize that most of the plane was not found including the black boxes (officially). So that would mean it's not there or never was. Also well over 1000 victims never had any remains identified, so that's means they weren't there right? Even ones who had remains identified most of what was found was only tiny bone fragments, so that means the rest of there[sic] bodies weren't there right? Hardly any computers or phones were found, none of that must have been there right? I mean all this is basically what your[sic] telling me right?

A) Do yourself and me a favor and work on your reading comprehension, because that is not what I said.

B) Physical evidence was discovered of the plane. Oh it wasn't all in one piece, but they found pieces here and there, such as the landing gear lodged in the aluminum cladding, the engine that landed on the street, the window frames within the wreckage, and while they weren't at all salvageable or usable, parts of the black boxes WERE found, IIRC. There were also bits and pieces of the items you mention above found within the debris; parts of telephones and computers; again, not whole, but parts existed that told us what was contained within the buildings. Same goes for the bodies; the bone fragments you mention, while not part of a whole body, tell us that people DIED there within those buildings. You do not need the entire sum of its parts to know that two planes struck those buildings, or that the buildings were equipped with typical office furniture, or that PEOPLE, actual living PEOPLE were killed there. By the logic you are advancing, the fact that the buildings were no longer standing, despite the gigantic pile of rubble, means they were never there, and we both know how ludicrous a notion THAT is. So again I reiterate; there was absolutely NO physical evidence discovered of a projectile weapon. No pieces of a missile (and trust me, they would have found them); no evidence of detonation, no leftover bits of whatever incendiary would have been used to propel the weapon (rocket fuel being quite different, chemically speaking, from jet fuel, and they found evidence of jet fuel as I recall).

Teams of people, both civilian and government, spent MONTHS combing through the debris, both on site and at the Fresh Kill landfill where much of the debris was sent; these are people who were trained in what to look for, and who would have recognized evidence of some kind of weapon other than the giant plane (which, given the manner it was used, qualifies as a projectile weapon itself anyway) that plowed into the buildings at 500+ mph. They found NOTHING. So again I tell you that your notion of a weapon fired from the plane literally an instant before the plane itself hit the building is ludicrous, laughable, and just makes you look like a completely insane person who has no grip on reality. Educate yourself as I suggested above, and maybe you might come to understand why nearly everyone in this thread is reacting the same way as me. Until then, I'm through with you.
 
On the contrary; anyone who is aware of the complement of weapons possessed by the United States (and indeed, most of the industrialized nations of the world) can say with certainty that there is no such weapon in existence at this time. People like, say, military members (such as myself, and leftysergeant, and BStrong in this very thread), who actually WORK WITH weapons, sometimes on a daily basis. THERE IS NO WEAPON THAT CAN BE MODIFIED TO FIRE FROM A PASSENGER JET THAT WOULD BE ARMED IN THE TIME ALLOTTED. Is that clear enough for you?

You can add my name to your above list of military personnel that say it is not possible to mount a missile to a B757/767 in the time allotted.

And to think that the Captain or FO would have missed this “pod” during the pre-flight inspection is ludicrous at best.
 
On the contrary; anyone who is aware of the complement of weapons possessed by the United States (and indeed, most of the industrialized nations of the world) can say with certainty that there is no such weapon in existence at this time. People like, say, military members (such as myself, and leftysergeant, and BStrong in this very thread), who actually WORK WITH weapons, sometimes on a daily basis. THERE IS NO WEAPON THAT CAN BE MODIFIED TO FIRE FROM A PASSENGER JET THAT WOULD BE ARMED IN THE TIME ALLOTTED. Is that clear enough for you?

Missiles do not fit the criteria you have outlined. Other projectile weapons do not fit the criteria you have outlined. THERE IS NO WEAPON IN EXISTENCE CURRENTLY THAT FITS THE INSANE CRITERIA YOU HAVE OUTLINED. The weapon would literally have to arm itself in less than one-quarter of a second, and even if you were able to disable the normal arming procedures to allow it to arm itself quicker (which, as others have pointed out, is impossible), it still could not arm itself that fast.

Here's a challenge for you, tmd; I highly suggest you go on www.fas.org and look up the information they have on all projectile weapons. They gather the information on weapons from all over the world, so you'll find information on everything from handguns to missiles (the unclassified information anyway). You might actually learn something about weaponry, namely that it is impossible, given current technology (much less 2001 technology) to do what you are suggesting. Look up ballistics weapons and kinetic-energy weapons, which are the two types projectile weapons are typically divided into. Once you've done that, take a look again at what you're suggesting happened, and maybe you'll realize that IT IS IMPOSSIBLE. Plain and simple.



A) Do yourself and me a favor and work on your reading comprehension, because that is not what I said.

B) Physical evidence was discovered of the plane. Oh it wasn't all in one piece, but they found pieces here and there, such as the landing gear lodged in the aluminum cladding, the engine that landed on the street, the window frames within the wreckage, and while they weren't at all salvageable or usable, parts of the black boxes WERE found, IIRC. There were also bits and pieces of the items you mention above found within the debris; parts of telephones and computers; again, not whole, but parts existed that told us what was contained within the buildings. Same goes for the bodies; the bone fragments you mention, while not part of a whole body, tell us that people DIED there within those buildings. You do not need the entire sum of its parts to know that two planes struck those buildings, or that the buildings were equipped with typical office furniture, or that PEOPLE, actual living PEOPLE were killed there. By the logic you are advancing, the fact that the buildings were no longer standing, despite the gigantic pile of rubble, means they were never there, and we both know how ludicrous a notion THAT is. So again I reiterate; there was absolutely NO physical evidence discovered of a projectile weapon. No pieces of a missile (and trust me, they would have found them); no evidence of detonation, no leftover bits of whatever incendiary would have been used to propel the weapon (rocket fuel being quite different, chemically speaking, from jet fuel, and they found evidence of jet fuel as I recall).

Teams of people, both civilian and government, spent MONTHS combing through the debris, both on site and at the Fresh Kill landfill where much of the debris was sent; these are people who were trained in what to look for, and who would have recognized evidence of some kind of weapon other than the giant plane (which, given the manner it was used, qualifies as a projectile weapon itself anyway) that plowed into the buildings at 500+ mph. They found NOTHING. So again I tell you that your notion of a weapon fired from the plane literally an instant before the plane itself hit the building is ludicrous, laughable, and just makes you look like a completely insane person who has no grip on reality. Educate yourself as I suggested above, and maybe you might come to understand why nearly everyone in this thread is reacting the same way as me. Until then, I'm through with you.

I think you need to spend more time actually reading what others write and to some extent what you write than worry about putting [sic] into their threads. The [sic] is totally unnecessary. Not because I didn't make grammar mistakes (I did) but for two reasons. One this is a message board, is perfect grammar really all that necessary? Number two everyone knows they are my errors and not yours, by the format of the message.
I point this out to show the mentality of some of the people here. Focus and fixate on small and in many cases meaningless things my grammar has nothing to do with the message I am getting across.

Now to your message, I find it hard to believe any one person would know if there is such a weapon, device etc. There are so many weapons out there (too many if you ask me) so many smart people capable of modifying weapons, I find it hard to believe.

Let's focus on one aspect here, about lack of physical evidence. There are something like 1100 victims who never had remains identified http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/bodies.html
By your reasoning they must not have been there. That is exactly what you are telling me. Why don't you try telling the victims families that? I'm sure they would love to hear it.
 
You can add my name to your above list of military personnel that say it is not possible to mount a missile to a B757/767 in the time allotted.

And to think that the Captain or FO would have missed this “pod” during the pre-flight inspection is ludicrous at best.

...Or the dozens (maybe more) of people at the airport looking at the airplane saying "what the :rule10: is that"??
 
...
Now to your message, I find it hard to believe any one person would know if there is such a weapon, device etc. There are so many weapons out there (too many if you ask me) so many smart people capable of modifying weapons, I find it hard to believe.
...

In other words:
You don't know much about weapons.
You are in fact certain that you aren't even capable of knowing enough about weapons.
You don't know if any weapon exists that fits your requirements.
And if one exists, you don't know which one(s) it could be.
But you want us to accept your ignorance and incredulity as evidence.

Is that a correct summary?
Yes, I think it is ;)
 
Let's focus on one aspect here, about lack of physical evidence. There are something like 1100 victims who never had remains identified http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/bodies.html
By your reasoning they must not have been there. That is exactly what you are telling me. Why don't you try telling the victims families that? I'm sure they would love to hear it.

That isn't her reasoning at all. It's yours. A perfect example of why you fail though.
 
I point this out to show the mentality of some of the people here. Focus and fixate on small and in many cases meaningless things


Irony at it finest! You whine about somebody adding (sic) to your posts but your whole thread is a fixation on a pixel or three on a youtube video!
The flash in the video is almost the definition of a small and meaningless thing!
You can't even give a plausible rationale why there would be a missile let alone show that there was one!:rolleyes:
 
Let's focus on one aspect here, about lack of physical evidence. There are something like 1100 victims who never had remains identified http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/bodies.html
By your reasoning they must not have been there. That is exactly what you are telling me. Why don't you try telling the victims families that? I'm sure they would love to hear it.

There is no high def video showing all parts of the buildings just before impact.....however we do have one of the planes and they show no missile so no its not the same at all.

And those 1100 victims were "presumed" dead, evidence would have been gathered from next of kin, their employers etc that would have shown they were very likely in the towers and died that day. None ever reappeared in the the near 10 years later and even in a normal missing persons case they could be assumed for legal purposes to be dead.
Is it possible one person narrowly avoided death that day then decided to start a new life? Yes, its possible. Is it possible all 1100 decided to disappear and have never been spotted since? No.
 
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Irony at it finest! You whine about somebody adding (sic) to your posts but your whole thread is a fixation on a pixel or three on a youtube video!
The flash in the video is almost the definition of a small and meaningless thing!
You can't even give a plausible rationale why there would be a missile let alone show that there was one!:rolleyes:

No sadly this whole thread is an example of what I am talking about. Look how hard people are trying to explain these flashes. Yet only one explanation is at all possible. The static discharge, but we are literally talking about a 1 and a several million chance, for it to happen once, let alone twice. This doesn't even explain the other anomalous flash/flame we see coming out of the back of the A/C.

Yet this is as you say a very small data item. There could be a logical explanation for those flashes, that doesn't change the mountains of other evidence and the lack of evidence for the official story. To my knowledge the only evidence against OBL and AQ is some videos, that are of very dubious authenticity. This is what I mean about missing the big picture.
 
No sadly this whole thread is an example of what I am talking about. Look how hard people are trying to explain these flashes.

Incorrect. We are trying to get it through your thick skull what they are. An impossible task to be sure.

The static discharge, but we are literally talking about a 1 and a several million chance
This figure is based on what expertise you hold?
This doesn't even explain the other anomalous flash/flame we see coming out of the back of the A/C.

You're referring to the one that doesn't actually exist?

There could be ISa logical explanation for those flashes,

ftfy.

To my knowledge the only evidence against OBL and AQ is some videos,

You mean the ones where they admit their role? Yea, that one.

This is what I mean about missing the big picture.

Look up the word "hypocrite" would ya?
 
Now to your message, I find it hard to believe any one person would know if there is such a weapon, device etc. There are so many weapons out there (too many if you ask me) so many smart people capable of modifying weapons, I find it hard to believe.

Again I refer you to www.fas.org

Not a single person there; it's a full FEDERATION of people dedicated to gathering unclassified information on various weapons and defense capabilities for countries the world over. If the weapon isn't on their list, it doesn't exist, quite frankly. Your personal incredulity about my or others knowledge of weaponry is irrelevant; I pointed you to an independent source that could back up my assertion and you hand-waved it away. Typical.

Let's focus on one aspect here, about lack of physical evidence. There are something like 1100 victims who never had remains identified http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/bodies.html
By your reasoning they must not have been there. That is exactly what you are telling me. Why don't you try telling the victims families that? I'm sure they would love to hear it.

No, let's focus on your utter LACK of reading comprehension. Again, just because we don't find the whole of something (in this case, all the bodies of the people who died that day) doesn't mean that the whole thing cannot be inferred to be present. For the purposes of my argument, picture the entire group of people who died in the towers on that day as one single entity. The fact that we have not discovered evidence of one single aspect of that entity (i.e. one of the 1100 you mentioned above) does not equate to the notion that they do not exist. We know who was there, having had their presence affirmed by multiple sources, and as sheeplesandshills pointed out, the fact that these individuals, whom we know existed and were supposed to be in the towers on that day, have not reappeared in the ten years since the tragedy affirms their presence there.

The difference between you and an actual researcher, tmd, is that a researcher relies on multiple sources to back up their conclusions; they don't rely on just one. You are relying solely on "visual evidence" (which others have pointed out is suspect to begin with, since you're using crappy, compressed Youtube vids to back up your assertions) to back up your conclusion that some form of projectile weapon was attached to the plane and was fired a split second before the plane impacted.

The problem is, your assertion has literally NOTHING beyond your dubious interpretation of a visual cue to back it up. The physics behind the crashes tell us that the speed of the plane was more than sufficient to penetrate the building on its own, so using a missile or other projectile weapon to punch into the building is, quite frankly, stupid beyond words. Other views of the plane show no suspicious lumps or visible projectile weapons attached to the plane, and we've got some damned clear views of that side of it to reference. Numerous people in this thread, upon viewing your videos, have provided better versions that show that the flash occurred AFTER impact (despite your blind assertions to the contrary; in this case, majority rules, since proving something requires more than one person to see what is being asserted). A study of projectile-based weaponry tells us that it is physically impossible to fire a weapon and have it actually work if you fire it a split second before it impacts whatever you are aiming it at (aside from bullets, which are not the type of projectile you seem to be referencing anyway). In short, all you have is your own dubious interpretation of a crappy, compressed Youtube video to back up your assertions, whereas we have physics, knowledge of projectile-based weaponry, clear photos of the side of the plane immediately before impact that show no suspicious additions to the plane, clearer videos that show the flash occurred after impact, and plausible theories as to what caused the flash in question that are backed up by science. Just whom do you think the scientific community is going to believe if presented with both arguments, given all of that?

ETA: sheeplesandshills also pointed out that the 1100 are listed as "presumed dead" rather than "killed", which does allow for the possibility that they might still be alive somewhere in the world, but generally speaking that can be considered to be a legal term for someone who cannot be proved to be dead based on the lack of a physical body, but is still considered dead. We use the term all the time for soldiers, especially those from Vietnam and Korea; the list of POWs and MIAs from those two wars are still significantly large, but in most cases the soldier is listed as "presumed dead", since it has been so long since they disappeared.
 
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Actually you shouldn't have said anything at all until that organ between your ears has a chance to do its thing.
.
I expect it's taxed to the limit keeping the ears from touching on the inside.
Actual thinking, that's something not yet mastered.
 
Again I refer you to www.fas.org

Not a single person there; it's a full FEDERATION of people dedicated to gathering unclassified information on various weapons and defense capabilities for countries the world over. If the weapon isn't on their list, it doesn't exist, quite frankly. Your personal incredulity about my or others knowledge of weaponry is irrelevant; I pointed you to an independent source that could back up my assertion and you hand-waved it away. Typical.



No, let's focus on your utter LACK of reading comprehension. Again, just because we don't find the whole of something (in this case, all the bodies of the people who died that day) doesn't mean that the whole thing cannot be inferred to be present. For the purposes of my argument, picture the entire group of people who died in the towers on that day as one single entity. The fact that we have not discovered evidence of one single aspect of that entity (i.e. one of the 1100 you mentioned above) does not equate to the notion that they do not exist. We know who was there, having had their presence affirmed by multiple sources, and as sheeplesandshills pointed out, the fact that these individuals, whom we know existed and were supposed to be in the towers on that day, have not reappeared in the ten years since the tragedy affirms their presence there.

The difference between you and an actual researcher, tmd, is that a researcher relies on multiple sources to back up their conclusions; they don't rely on just one. You are relying solely on "visual evidence" (which others have pointed out is suspect to begin with, since you're using crappy, compressed Youtube vids to back up your assertions) to back up your conclusion that some form of projectile weapon was attached to the plane and was fired a split second before the plane impacted.

The problem is, your assertion has literally NOTHING beyond your dubious interpretation of a visual cue to back it up. The physics behind the crashes tell us that the speed of the plane was more than sufficient to penetrate the building on its own, so using a missile or other projectile weapon to punch into the building is, quite frankly, stupid beyond words. Other views of the plane show no suspicious lumps or visible projectile weapons attached to the plane, and we've got some damned clear views of that side of it to reference. Numerous people in this thread, upon viewing your videos, have provided better versions that show that the flash occurred AFTER impact (despite your blind assertions to the contrary; in this case, majority rules, since proving something requires more than one person to see what is being asserted). A study of projectile-based weaponry tells us that it is physically impossible to fire a weapon and have it actually work if you fire it a split second before it impacts whatever you are aiming it at (aside from bullets, which are not the type of projectile you seem to be referencing anyway). In short, all you have is your own dubious interpretation of a crappy, compressed Youtube video to back up your assertions, whereas we have physics, knowledge of projectile-based weaponry, clear photos of the side of the plane immediately before impact that show no suspicious additions to the plane, clearer videos that show the flash occurred after impact, and plausible theories as to what caused the flash in question that are backed up by science. Just whom do you think the scientific community is going to believe if presented with both arguments, given all of that?

ETA: sheeplesandshills also pointed out that the 1100 are listed as "presumed dead" rather than "killed", which does allow for the possibility that they might still be alive somewhere in the world, but generally speaking that can be considered to be a legal term for someone who cannot be proved to be dead based on the lack of a physical body, but is still considered dead. We use the term all the time for soldiers, especially those from Vietnam and Korea; the list of POWs and MIAs from those two wars are still significantly large, but in most cases the soldier is listed as "presumed dead", since it has been so long since they disappeared.

I didn't think I'd actually have to spell it out. But a lot of things were completely destroyed by the fires and collapse. You expect one weapon to survive?

Again the hypocrisy here never ceases to amaze me. In one breath you say you can't rely on visual evidence, in the next breath you say there are no visual signs or bumps indicating weapons? Unbelievable really. Completely and totally unbelievable. I'm sure the people that did this (if it was a CT) would have made sure whatever it was, was as hard to see as possible.

As for the weapons..again there are so many weapons, and so many smart people out there capable of modifying weapons, there is no way to say something could or could not be done.
 

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