Merged Libyan civil war ending - politics post-Gaddafi

[DC]

Wasn't it July 7, about six weeks ago, that Tripoli hosted about a million people still showing their full support for the government? Contrary to claims, they were not all there because of a million family members held hostage.

Plus wasn't there was a comparable number in other cities, some even braving exposure behind then enemy lines, and all of them behind the potential enemy lines that would extend Libya's borders, as the West already pretends. In a nation of six million, after months of the West's clear messages, something approaching one third of Libya still publicly said no, with one green voice.

What's so amazingly different now, aside from the proximity of sheer, brute force?

The will of the people and NATO's bombs and the Western power elite's pronouncements from February on, might finally triumph over col. Gaddafi and the will of the people!

so what, what is the significanse of 1 million supporters in a country with more than 6 million people?

 

[little grey rabbit]

so what, what is the significanse of 1 million supporters in a country with more than 6 million people?

The significance is most people just want to get on with their lives and see civil war as the most horrific disaster that benevolent western liberal humanitarians could bequeath to their country.

There would probably have been no uprising or armed uprising if Western and Arab intelligence agencies hadn't encouraged the Justice and Interior Minister to defect and set up a rival national government. And then surreptitiously funnelled arms, cash and propaganda and psychological warfare resources to them

There would have been no civil war had we not blasted the Libyan army to pieces.

And now it appears that reports of captured Gaddafi children may have been slightly exaggerated.

What an appalling mess. In a just world NATO military leaders and intelligence agencies and associated journalists would be lined up against the wall and shoot. Just like what happened to the Nazis.

 

[akama1]

Latest reports are of sniping of rebels in the street, looks like it will be drawn out gorilla warfare for a while, which is never good

 

[Dayan81]

MSNBC just reported that he called Al-Jazeera back to let them know he's alive and under house arrest.

Steve S

That's good to know.

 

[DC]

The significance is most people just want to get on with their lives and see civil war as the most horrific disaster that benevolent western liberal humanitarians could bequeath to their country.

There would probably have been no uprising or armed uprising if Western and Arab intelligence agencies hadn't encouraged the Justice and Interior Minister to defect and set up a rival national government. And then surreptitiously funnelled arms, cash and propaganda and psychological warfare resources to them

There would have been no civil war had we not blasted the Libyan army to pieces.

And now it appears that reports of captured Gaddafi children may have been slightly exaggerated.

What an appalling mess. In a just world NATO military leaders and intelligence agencies and associated journalists would be lined up against the wall and shoot. Just like what happened to the Nazis.

how do you know what most people in libya want?

 

[little grey rabbit]

how do you know what most people in libya want?

It's that very special insight. I believe the 30 years war wasn't all exactly liked that much either.

Bearing in mind that in the invasion of Iraq I believed Saddam Hussein was implementing a classic enveloping movement and the republican guard was about to fall on the Americans in the rear......you should judge what I say below appropriately.

Seif Gaddafi is saying at the moment

Saif reportedly told the BBC that his father was still in the city and claimed his troops had "broken the back" of the rebels after luring them into a "trap".

"I am here to refute the lies," he reportedly told AFP, referring to reports of his arrest.

"Tripoli is under our control. Everyone should rest assured. All is well in Tripoli," he claimed.

Leaving aside the Comical Ali aspect to this, in a situation where a military more powerful force is being held in a no-drive situation by air-power, which is propping a numerically small and not very popular insurgency. Then allowing them a big push into Tripoli might be a logical tactic in such an unusual situation, indeed even to the extent of holding back to suck as many rebel fighters into the city as possible.

In the early stages of the conflict, according to the Daily Mail, MI6 were ringing the leading army generals telling them that NATO airpower would target their homes and families - and encouraged them to defect. Not really a good way to win hearts and minds in my opinion - in fact rather a way calculated to cause said generals to loathe and despise both NATO and the insurgents to the very core of their being.

However, when the insurgents seemed to make some very easy gains in the last few days and then just waltzed unopposed into Tripoli I assumed either there had been an enormous collapse in morale (understandable) or the months of behind the scenes blackmail/threats/psychological warfare had succeeded enough to persuade enough of the military to stand aside or cross over. Particularly when Gaddafi children were announced as being in custody.

If the armed forces have not been bought off and they have not been defeated in the field, then Libyans may be living in very interesting times.

 

[Skeptic]

The Jerusalem post is reporting the rebels asked the (social) leader of UK's Libyan Jews to run for office there.

If confirmed, that WOULD be a real historical moment, far more than the constantly-shifting heads of state in the Arab world. It would be the first time in living memory, at least, a Jew freely was asked to run for a position in an Arab / Muslim country.

(Of course none of the "Israeli is evil apartheid state" folks ever cared about THAT. But somebody has to point out when the Arab world is trying to be decent to its Jews!)

 

[Dayan81]

..In a just world NATO military leaders and intelligence agencies and associated journalists would be lined up against the wall and shoot. Just like what happened to the Nazis.

Let me see if I fully understand this: you want the leaders of ALL NATO countries that were involved in the no-fly zone, the leaders of their intelligence agencies, and associated journalists to be murdered in cold-blood with no trial or jury?

Wow.

 

[little grey rabbit]

The Jerusalem post is reporting the rebels asked the (social) leader of UK's Libyan Jews to run for office there.

If confirmed, that WOULD be a real historical moment, far more than the constantly-shifting heads of state in the Arab world. It would be the first time in living memory, at least, a Jew freely was asked to run for a position in an Arab / Muslim country.

(Of course none of the "Israeli is evil apartheid state" folks ever cared about THAT. But somebody has to point out when the Arab world is trying to be decent to its Jews!)

Actually it was Gaddafi who some years ago suggested that the Jews should dissolve Israel and move back into the ME community as technical specialists.

Anyway, there have been lots of coverage about how the Libyans - especially the Libyan insurgents are extremely philo-semitic.

Since in the Western part of the country the insurrection is being run along the strategy of the Hmong in Vietnam, it should be no surprise to learn how much they love Jews
http://www.google.com/hostednews/af...docId=CNG.12b3e2d8c5a021ba35421e540e77eecd.01

It worked out pretty good for the Hmong also.

 

[little grey rabbit]

Let me see if I fully understand this: you want the leaders of ALL NATO countries that were involved in the no-fly zone, the leaders of their intelligence agencies, and associated journalists to be murdered in cold-blood with no trial or jury?

Wow.

Me? No I have no particular strong opinions on the matter. I simply said in a just world that is what would happen. In a just world there would also be punishment for 9/11. For my part I just view myself as a tourist - how you wish to run your affairs is your concern.

I think it was either Keitel or Jodl who just before their execution at Nuremberg wrote that although they felt themselves to have been not guilty of war crimes, nevertheless he hoped that his execution might help create a precedent that would lead to a world without war. So he was content to die.

One would hope NATO generals would have sufficient grace to take such a philosophic stance as well.

 

[Dayan81]

Me? No I have no particular strong opinions on the matter...

Forgive me, but this appears to be a VERY strong opinion..

..In a just world NATO military leaders and intelligence agencies and associated journalists would be lined up against the wall and shoot...

 

[DC]

It's that very special insight. I believe the 30 years war wasn't all exactly liked that much either.

Bearing in mind that in the invasion of Iraq I believed Saddam Hussein was implementing a classic enveloping movement and the republican guard was about to fall on the Americans in the rear......you should judge what I say below appropriately.

Seif Gaddafi is saying at the moment


Leaving aside the Comical Ali aspect to this, in a situation where a military more powerful force is being held in a no-drive situation by air-power, which is propping a numerically small and not very popular insurgency. Then allowing them a big push into Tripoli might be a logical tactic in such an unusual situation, indeed even to the extent of holding back to suck as many rebel fighters into the city as possible.

In the early stages of the conflict, according to the Daily Mail, MI6 were ringing the leading army generals telling them that NATO airpower would target their homes and families - and encouraged them to defect. Not really a good way to win hearts and minds in my opinion - in fact rather a way calculated to cause said generals to loathe and despise both NATO and the insurgents to the very core of their being.

However, when the insurgents seemed to make some very easy gains in the last few days and then just waltzed unopposed into Tripoli I assumed either there had been an enormous collapse in morale (understandable) or the months of behind the scenes blackmail/threats/psychological warfare had succeeded enough to persuade enough of the military to stand aside or cross over. Particularly when Gaddafi children were announced as being in custody.

If the armed forces have not been bought off and they have not been defeated in the field, then Libyans may be living in very interesting times.

i see, you don't know what the majority wants, thought so already.

 

[Cuddles]

Stay on topic. For those who may have forgotten, what with this being such a long thread, the topic is not holocaust denial, 9/11, or any other conspiracy theories. If you want to discuss them, do so in the appropriate section.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Cuddles

 

[Caustic Logic]

Understand you're talking to a holocaust denier and 9/11 truther.

Who still manages to make quite good points from time to time. As here.

so what, what is the significanse of 1 million supporters in a country with more than 6 million people?

Seriously?

In short, one in six people alive in Libya today gathered in the capitol. In the US, that's be like 50 million people converging on DC. And protests never host ALL the people who sympathize with its views.

A large number in other cities too, hundreds of thousands I hear, perhaps nearly a million combined, some behind enemy lines. Benghazi, Misrata, maybe not allowed, I'm not sure.

And remember what they were being told - it's over, the government has zero legitimacy, Gaddafi must go, the rebels must be put in charge. NATO will keep bombing, your frozen money will stay stolen, the embargoes will remain, the diplomatic cut-off, the illegalizing of the whole government will remain, until this happens.

AND YET, a very large portion of the people there - nearly one in three perhaps, actaually stood together at one time, co-ordinated, and still refused, proudly waving the green flag in one giant shout of "we don't want your freedom! This war does not speak for us!"

The other 2/3 ... all rebel supporters?

Consider some Gaddafi supporters out there might not have shown up in their local square as some are in jail, some in mass graves, some in a hospital, some in refugee camps, some in hiding, some just afraid, or too dispirited to bother...

And in the one main city then still untouched by direct fighting, where these limitations matter the least, is that more or less representative than, say, Az Zintan? Because in Tripoli alone, there were one million, probably about half of them from Tripoli itself, into which the rebels just stepped and, I think, were tricked into arresting a Seif Gaddafi double.
http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2011/08/so-iif-they-didnt-capture-seif.html

Anyway, you don't see the significance of that, considering our whole justification for this string of illegal (but multi-lateral, aka conspiratorial) acts, is to fulfill the wishes of "the people of Libya" to remove a government "the people of Libya" reject?

 

[McHrozni]

Wasn't it July 7, about six weeks ago, that Tripoli hosted about a million people being made to create a show as if they were still showing their full support for the government?

Fixed that for you. Relevance?

McHrozni

 

[Toke]

This reminds me of an evening at the German seafarers mission in Duala.

There were something on [Mobutu] Mugabe on the tv, and the bartender said something about how good he were for Africa. There must have been a flash of scorn on the engineers and my face, because she clammed up immediately.
Sure, there is a long way from Cameroon to Zimbabwe and she may not have known too much about the country.

Still, it show me that we are all getting different lies and half-truths, and the Libyan people may not subscribe to the ones in our media.

 

[DC]

Who still manages to make quite good points from time to time. As here.



Seriously?

In short, one in six people alive in Libya today gathered in the capitol. In the US, that's be like 50 million people converging on DC. And protests never host ALL the people who sympathize with its views.

A large number in other cities too, hundreds of thousands I hear, perhaps nearly a million combined, some behind enemy lines. Benghazi, Misrata, maybe not allowed, I'm not sure.

And remember what they were being told - it's over, the government has zero legitimacy, Gaddafi must go, the rebels must be put in charge. NATO will keep bombing, your frozen money will stay stolen, the embargoes will remain, the diplomatic cut-off, the illegalizing of the whole government will remain, until this happens.

AND YET, a very large portion of the people there - nearly one in three perhaps, actaually stood together at one time, co-ordinated, and still refused, proudly waving the green flag in one giant shout of "we don't want your freedom! This war does not speak for us!"

The other 2/3 ... all rebel supporters?

Consider some Gaddafi supporters out there might not have shown up in their local square as some are in jail, some in mass graves, some in a hospital, some in refugee camps, some in hiding, some just afraid, or too dispirited to bother...

And in the one main city then still untouched by direct fighting, where these limitations matter the least, is that more or less representative than, say, Az Zintan? Because in Tripoli alone, there were one million, probably about half of them from Tripoli itself, into which the rebels just stepped and, I think, were tricked into arresting a Seif Gaddafi double.
http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2011/08/so-iif-they-didnt-capture-seif.html

Anyway, you don't see the significance of that, considering our whole justification for this string of illegal (but multi-lateral, aka conspiratorial) acts, is to fulfill the wishes of "the people of Libya" to remove a government "the people of Libya" reject?

that is one of the postiive aspects of elections. you alctually know who people whant to be in charge.

when his support was so huge, he could have introduced democracy. but he didn't. so he now has no legitimate reason to cry foul.
it's a coup. and with a bit luck, the guys now in charge will introduce democracy.

1 out of 6 is a joke.
the guys now in charge took power like he took power. Ghadaffi never gave back the power to the people, where it belongs, he kept it untill someone else took it from him. now we wil see where they head to.

 

[little grey rabbit]

This reminds me of an evening at the German seafarers mission in Duala.

There were something on Mobutu on the tv, and the bartender said something about how good he were for Africa. There must have been a flash of scorn on the engineers and my face, because she clammed up immediately.
Sure, there is a long way from Cameroon to Zimbabwe and she may not have known too much about the country.

Still, it show me that we are all getting different lies and half-truths, and the Libyan people may not subscribe to the ones in our media.

You mean Mugabe/Zimbabwe or Mobutu/Zaire?

It really depends on how long ago it was. Mugabe for a time had huge popularity. And at least part of the animus he has attracted in the english media is probably due to his program of land distribution - which would have popular appeal to Africans. None of this to deny Zimbabwe has turned out a disaster.

 

[timhau]

Wasn't it July 7, about six weeks ago, that Tripoli hosted about a million people still showing their full support for the government?

Who counted them?

 

[Caustic Logic]

that is one of the postiive aspects of elections. you alctually know who people whant to be in charge.

when his support was so huge, he could have introduced democracy.

I hear they were working on it. They actually have democracy, more direct than ours and with higher participation. They just vote for local things mostly, not the leaders. But that was possibly part of the reforms they were drafting for introduction later in 2011. I don't really know the details. The civil war and NATO air war has delayed this, I hear. One should hope they kept working on it, and announced accelerated plans. Maybe they did and we didn't hear about it? Maybe in passing as a sick joke, too little too late? I didn't notice if so .

but he didn't. so he now has no legitimate reason to cry foul.

Personally, I think that might've been the plan.

it's a coup. and with a bit luck, the guys now in charge will introduce democracy.

Not a coup, or a civil war, the rebels insist on saying. It's the people - all of them, mostly - rising up, a mood thing, and weapons and cities just falling in their hands. Coup suggests plotting in advance.

1 out of 6 is a joke.

Again, that's (roughly) how many stood together in and around green square, not the full tally of all Libyans who support the government fully, which is surely much higher, and higher yet if we include the fence-sitters, conflicted people, and silenced loyalists in Benghazi and so on. Please pay attention.

My educated guess is all told 66-75% nationwide and 75-90% in the West oppose the West's plans for Libya. They might want to ditch Gaddafi, but on their own terms, and with this little kick in the pants as a reminder it should happen soon.

the guys now in charge took power like he took power.

Well it's not clear who's in charge, in the balance, or will be a week or month from now. But I know who you mean. And they certainly did not come in with a bloodless, purely Libyan, and widely supported coup while the corrupt king was on vacation. Have you been paying attention here?