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Merged Electric Sun Theory (Split from: CME's, active regions and high energy flares)

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^^^
What he said.
We've also been discussing the use of the word "pseudoscience" in general terms, and as far as I am concerned, it is irrelevant as to which subject it is applied. We wouldn't expect the definition and use of the word to change on a subject by subject basis.
So here's a question for you: If I - or any other JREF member - were to start a thread, here in this section of JREF, on the nature of pseudoscience, would you be an active participant in the ensuing discussion?

My views on the label "pseudoscience" apply to any subject. I am happy that you and others have your own views and descriptions, I just don't share the view that it is useful to use such a general and ill-defined term.

Perhaps if the word "pseudoscience" was better defined, and more generally agreed upon, we'd see the word used more often in scientific papers.
Or perhaps not.

Anyway, back to the topic of this thread, the Electric Sun Theory (EST).

Do you think you could make a credible case that the EST (as presented in this thread) is astrophysics?

If so, would you care to try? If not, why not?
 
Do you think you could make a credible case that the EST (as presented in this thread) is astrophysics?

If so, would you care to try? If not, why not?
I think that it would be impossible to anyone (inclusing iantresman) to make a crediable case for EST as presented in this thread since no such theory has been presented!

The closest to a theory was Bruce's outdated and invalid theory that solar flares were lightning.

There is probably a mention of Michael Mozina's Iron Sun idea but there are a couple of other threads comprehensively showing that it is a fantasy. However, another bit of science for MM to ignore when he gets back :rolleyes::
Scientists see sunspots forming 60,000 km below the Sun’s surface!
They could detect this material 60,000 km deep — that’s nearly five times the diameter of the Earth! These nascent sunspots move upward at about 1000 – 2000 km/hr, faster than the speed of a jet airplane. At that speed, it takes about two days to rise to the surface… and presto, that’s what’s seen: the subsurface spot erupts through to the surface, where we can see them directly.
Right through MM's iron surface/crust/thingy :jaw-dropp!

The rest of this thread is mostly a futile attempt to educate Michael Mozina about basic physics.
 
Do you think you could make a credible case that the EST (as presented in this thread) is astrophysics?

If so, would you care to try? If not, why not?
I think that it would be impossible to anyone (inclusing iantresman) to make a crediable case for EST as presented in this thread since no such theory has been presented!

The closest to a theory was Bruce's outdated and invalid theory that solar flares were lightning.

There is probably a mention of Michael Mozina's Iron Sun idea but there are a couple of other threads comprehensively showing that it is a fantasy.

[...]
Here's the thing: from my perspective, none of what MM has presented is astrophysics (or physics), because he has not been able to connect any of it to the quantitative foundation of physics. And unless and until he - or someone else - does, discussion of the ideas he presents cannot be a science-based one (of course, the discussion may be amusing, frustrating, educational, ...).

Some have called the ideas/material/etc pseudoscience, and have explained why. Iantresman said he doesn't like the term, and explained why.

Fine.

But does iantresman consider what MM has presented physics? astrophysics?

As tusenfem pointed out, and as you can see for yourself if you click on the link in iantresman's sig, he (iantresman) has presented (and defended) many ideas that seem to have strong similarities to MM's, to do with the role plasmas play in how the universe works (there's even a pretty prominent place given, on his website, to a competing EST - though called a 'model' - by Don Scott).

Now I'm curious to know how iantresman demarcates science, with respect to studies of the Sun (and plasmas in the universe in general). For example, does he regard Scott's Electric Sun model as (astro)physics?
 
So here's a question for you: If I - or any other JREF member - were to start a thread, here in this section of JREF, on the nature of pseudoscience, would you be an active participant in the ensuing discussion?

Probably, depending on how the discussion goes (and someone kindly includes a link from this threat to the new one).

Do you think you could make a credible case that the EST (as presented in this thread) is astrophysics?

Without wanting to sound obstructive or vague, I don't think it is as clearly cut as that. From what I've read, I think there are some ideas that need developing. I think there is a lot missing from the ideas, but there does seem to be an intent to develop the ideas further using the scientific method, but either there is missing information, or people don't have the ability to do so.

Here's the thing: from my perspective, none of what MM has presented is astrophysics (or physics), because he has not been able to connect any of it to the quantitative foundation of physics.

That sounds reasonable from your point of view. From my point of view, just because something lacks science, doesn't make it pseudoscience, but just lacking in science.

Now I'm curious to know how iantresman demarcates science,

As a general question, that is very interesting, and perhaps best discussed in the proposed new thread on pseudoscience.
 
That sounds reasonable from your point of view. From my point of view, just because something lacks science, doesn't make it pseudoscience, but just lacking in science.

Then that is an unsupported idea, a fantasy and unverfied theory.

What if in fact it contradicts all available data?
 
I think that it would be impossible to anyone (inclusing iantresman) to make a crediable case for EST as presented in this thread since no such theory has been presented!

DeiRenDopa said:
But does iantresman consider what MM has presented physics? astrophysics?

If I could do that, then I'd submit it for peer review!

Nevertheless, I still think people should have the opportunity to discuss novel ideas, and see how what further data, models, theories, would be required to test them. Science can objectively assess many kinds of idea (but not all), no matter how way out.
 
Then that is an unsupported idea, a fantasy and unverfied theory.

What if in fact it contradicts all available data?

Some ideas are completely unsupported. Some people have ideas based on "hunches" but suspect that they may supported, and just need to confirm it. I also suspect that there are supported idea, which turn out to be wrong!

Edited 13:07BST:

What if in fact it contradicts all available data?

OK, I'm playing the devil's advocate a little, but all available data is not all data, and I am sure there are examples of paradigm-changing ideas that fall into this category. Note that this is a completely unsupported statement, but I have a hunch that I could find supporting data.

"All progress resulted from people who took unpopular positions." -- Adlai Stevenson

"When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: That all the dunces are in a confederacy against him!" -- Jonathan Swift.

"You can never solve a problem with the same kind of thinking that created the problem in the first place" -- Albert Einstein.
 
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DeiRenDopa said:
Do you think you could make a credible case that the EST (as presented in this thread) is astrophysics?
Without wanting to sound obstructive or vague, I don't think it is as clearly cut as that. From what I've read, I think there are some ideas that need developing. I think there is a lot missing from the ideas, but there does seem to be an intent to develop the ideas further using the scientific method, but either there is missing information, or people don't have the ability to do so.
FWIW, "missing the point" is a more appropriate term. :D

Keep this in mind: the *only* branch of science in play here is physics. Too, MM has always insisted that the ideas he's presented are science-based.

That leads to an inescapable conclusion: whatever the ideas presented are, they are not science; it's not that "there is a lot missing from the ideas", rather it's that they fail to meet a central criterion of physics (i.e. the quantitative, or 'math', connection); it's not that "there does seem to be an intent to develop the ideas further using the scientific method", but a persistent, categorical denial of the centrality (even validity) of this key foundational aspect of physics; it's not that "there is missing information", rather a point blank refusal to accept the central necessity to do the math.

Of course it may well be that MM "don't have the ability to do" math :p

So, now that - I hope! - you get the point, what evidence can you present (from this thread) that MM's ideas meet the central criterion for being science (physics)?

Here's the thing: from my perspective, none of what MM has presented is astrophysics (or physics), because he has not been able to connect any of it to the quantitative foundation of physics.
That sounds reasonable from your point of view. From my point of view, just because something lacks science, doesn't make it pseudoscience, but just lacking in science.
You use of English (or perhaps logic), then, seems, um, odd.

Not once has MM claimed that the ideas he's presented are anything but science (physics)! How could there be an example of where use of the word "pseudoscience" is more appropriate?!?

Oh, and what's the title of this section of JREF?
 
If it lacks science but pretends to be science, it's pseudoscience. This willful suspension of scientific rigor is something I've seen MM do many times.

The funny thing is, the majority of the math and actual quantitative scientific exploration of the ideas appears to have been done by the people pointing out why EU/PC is not even wrong. The proponents of these alternative cosmologies seem to be singularly lacking in any ability at math, or if they have it, are notoriously shy in application to their many pronouncements.

Science is about challenging ideas and trying to find out what is right, by testing every idea in every way conceivable to find out if it is wrong. EU/PC doesn't challenge itself, let alone the mainstream cosmology/physics community. How can any scientist, or even layman for that matter, take the EU/PC proponents unwillingness to trial their ideas, in the only way that actually matters, at all seriously?
 
Keep this in mind: the *only* branch of science in play here is physics. Too, MM has always insisted that the ideas he's presented are science-based.

If you're referring to the subject of this thread, yes, but if you are also including the nature of pseudoscience, then I would say that no.

So, now that - I hope! - you get the point, what evidence can you present (from this thread) that MM's ideas meet the central criterion for being science (physics)?

I don't think that would be useful. You've already said that MM's views don't meet the expected quantitative standards, so restating/reinterpretting them won't either. And I don't necessarily know whether I agree or disagree with his interpretations.


Not once has MM claimed that the ideas he's presented are anything but science (physics)!

We'd have to ask MM

How could there be an example of where use of the word "pseudoscience" is more appropriate?!?

If that falls within your definition of the word, then that's fine.

Oh, and what's the title of this section of JREF?

Something we can agree on!
 
If it lacks science but pretends to be science, it's pseudoscience. This willful suspension of scientific rigor is something I've seen MM do many times.

The funny thing is, the majority of the math and actual quantitative scientific exploration of the ideas appears to have been done by the people pointing out why EU/PC is not even wrong. The proponents of these alternative cosmologies seem to be singularly lacking in any ability at math, or if they have it, are notoriously shy in application to their many pronouncements.

Science is about challenging ideas and trying to find out what is right, by testing every idea in every way conceivable to find out if it is wrong. EU/PC doesn't challenge itself, let alone the mainstream cosmology/physics community. How can any scientist, or even layman for that matter, take the EU/PC proponents unwillingness to trial their ideas, in the only way that actually matters, at all seriously?

Some of what you say I agree with, and some I don't. I think there is an over-generalization. In no particular order:

I think you'd have to ask MM whether there was "willful suspension of scientific rigor". We've all read articles and watch scientific programs, whose degree of rigor is lacking. I would tend to prefer that there is just a "lack of rigor". Most people I know want to find out, though I would be the first to concede that they may not want to put in the work to do so.

Your comments gave me the impression (and it may not have been your intent) that nothing in EU/PC was scientific (you quipped " is not even wrong"). I find such statements difficult, because they are so general.

Having read about some of these subject, I find that there are differences between the Electric Universe (EU), Plasma Cosmology (which may be referring to Klein-Alfvén Cosmology, that Alfvén himself calls Klein Cosmology and Symmetric Cosmology), and the Plasma Universe (PU). To suggest that there is nothing in any of these subjects that includes "math and actual quantitative scientific exploration", is demonstrably wrong as demonstrated by a number of theories which are shared in mainstream science (eg. MHD)

Although it may look like it, I am not actually defending any of the subjects, only pointing out that some of the criticisms, in my opinion, do not reach the scientific standards which some people are demanding.

Now if you want to criticize certain individuals for not presenting their arguments with sufficient rigor, then sure, I may even agree with you, but I don't think it is helpful mixing up the message with one of the messengers, even if in the end, it all turns out that there is no merit in any of the subjects.
 
Nevertheless, I still think people should have the opportunity to discuss novel ideas, and see how what further data, models, theories, would be required to test them. Science can objectively assess many kinds of idea (but not all), no matter how way out.
Of course they should (have the opportunity).

However, in this section of JREF, the working assumption is that the discussion will include testing whether the idea is science (physics in this case), and if not, what sorts of things need to be done to get it there.

For the EST presented here, that was done waaaay before the thread began. And I think it's abundantly clear to everyone who's actively participated in this thread that, as physics, MM's ideas were DOA.

What is it about those ideas, iantresman, that makes you think they are physics (or could be)?
 
What is it about those ideas, iantresman, that makes you think they are physics (or could be)?

Without wanting to sound like I'm copping out, ideas perhaps by definition, are not science (and so by implication, not physics).

But that's not to say that science can not assess the ideas.
 
If I could do that, then I'd submit it for peer review!

Nevertheless, I still think people should have the opportunity to discuss novel ideas, and see how what further data, models, theories, would be required to test them. Science can objectively assess many kinds of idea (but not all), no matter how way out.

Yes, but here is the deal, if the sun had a charge sufficient to light it up, it would explode at relatavistic velocities. There are no charge differentials sufficient to create currents to cause the sun to glow. The solar wind emits both positive and negative particles.
 
Some ideas are completely unsupported. Some people have ideas based on "hunches" but suspect that they may supported, and just need to confirm it. I also suspect that there are supported idea, which turn out to be wrong!

Edited 13:07BST:



OK, I'm playing the devil's advocate a little, but all available data is not all data, and I am sure there are examples of paradigm-changing ideas that fall into this category. Note that this is a completely unsupported statement, but I have a hunch that I could find supporting data.

Hi Ian,
Quotes, from people do not change the data that contradicts the electric sun, that is teh facts.

So all that stuff is irrelevant, no matter who said it.
 
Your comments gave me the impression (and it may not have been your intent) that nothing in EU/PC was scientific (you quipped " is not even wrong"). I find such statements difficult, because they are so general.
nvidiot, will, of course, speak to this directly, no doubt.

If you were to take the trouble to review all the threads in which "EU/PC" has been presented (at least in the last few years), I think you'd find that MM has presented more on this than anyone else.

Having read about some of these subject, I find that there are differences between the Electric Universe (EU), Plasma Cosmology (which may be referring to Klein-Alfvén Cosmology, that Alfvén himself calls Klein Cosmology and Symmetric Cosmology), and the Plasma Universe (PU). To suggest that there is nothing in any of these subjects that includes "math and actual quantitative scientific exploration", is demonstrably wrong as demonstrated by a number of theories which are shared in mainstream science (eg. MHD)
Perhaps you'd like to do some research on this, in terms of what's already been presented here in this section of JREF?

I think you'll find a strange mixture of stuff, from MM at full bore (thus essentially making nvidiot's point) to Zeuzzz dumping pages of stuff from Lerner (without attribution).

As far as I know, everything EU/PC which *does* meet the criterion for being physics (the one that MM fails) fails another, central, criterion of physics (consistency with all relevant observational and experimental results, quantitatively; much of it also fails the 'internal consistency' criterion) ... at least everything called EU/PC that has been presented here.

Although it may look like it, I am not actually defending any of the subjects, only pointing out that some of the criticisms, in my opinion, do not reach the scientific standards which some people are demanding.
Perhaps, then, you are writing this post in the wrong thread?

Perhaps you should post in one of threads Zeuzzzz started?

Alternatively, perhaps you should write something about how what MM has presented is not "EU/PC" as you understand it? Specifically, with respect to the topic of this thread, perhaps you should come out and say that what MM has presented is not the true "EU/PC" electric sun theory?
Now if you want to criticize certain individuals for not presenting their arguments with sufficient rigor, then sure, I may even agree with you, but I don't think it is helpful mixing up the message with one of the messengers, even if in the end, it all turns out that there is no merit in any of the subjects.
Well, here's your chance iantresman ... start a thread, on "EU/PC", and present what you consider to be material which
a) is physics, in the sense of being quantitative
b) is astrophysics, in the sense of being consistent with the relevant observations

It might be a good idea, if you choose to do this, to start by reviewing 'the Zeuzzzz threads' on this topic ...
 
Having read about some of these subject, I find that there are differences between the Electric Universe (EU), Plasma Cosmology (which may be referring to Klein-Alfvén Cosmology, that Alfvén himself calls Klein Cosmology and Symmetric Cosmology), and the Plasma Universe (PU). To suggest that there is nothing in any of these subjects that includes "math and actual quantitative scientific exploration", is demonstrably wrong as demonstrated by a number of theories which are shared in mainstream science (eg. MHD)

Although it may look like it, I am not actually defending any of the subjects, only pointing out that some of the criticisms, in my opinion, do not reach the scientific standards which some people are demanding.

Recently, Tom Bridgman compiled a short summary of "the problems with Electric Universe (EU) claims that EU supporters persistently ignore": Challenges for Electric Universe 'Theorists'.

Some regulars here may find this an interesting page (assuming you hadn't already read it) ...
 
But that's not to say that science can not assess the ideas.

We did. It takes about one line of dimensional-analysis to show that the average Mozina-idea is unlikely. Applying more detailed laws of physics (known or hypothesized laws) has, to date, just given more reasons to reject these ideas. In other words, when you assess the Electric and/or Iron Sun using science, it goes straight into the "wrong" pile. That's how science works.

The "Electric Sun" was once a hypothesis, and it was proven (extremely) wrong. That's science.

The fact that Mozina et. al. continue to insist that it's true (not merely that it's a hypothesis-that-should-be-examined), deliberately ignoring the evidence against it, refusing to apply any laws of physics to the evidence, making no effort to refine or clarify or test it---what is that? Is that still science? No, it's using sciencey words within a pure conspiracy-theory, self-confirming way of thinking.

If there were once scientific "electric sun" theorists (Velikovsky may be as good as you get), Mozina has inherited from them nothing but the particular science words that he arranges his conspiracy around.
 
Real Science & Pseudo Science

Pseudoscience is an English word and defined (variously) in dictionaries.
My point is that it doesn't have a scientific definition. ...
There is no scientifically agreed definition of "pseudoscience".


I disagree. There is in fact a very precise and very well understood "scientific" definition of pseudoscience: It is fake science.

I put "scientific" in quotation marks because, in truth there is no such thing as a "scientific" definition. Science is a process, and neither a product nor a goal unto itself. Therefore, when I say that the definition is "scientific" I do not mean to say that it was arrived at by a scientific process, but rather I do mean that it is the definition understood by all scientists who use it (and I might add, by the large majority of non-scientists who use it).

Perhaps if the word "pseudoscience" was better defined, and more generally agreed upon, we'd see the word used more often in scientific papers.


I think of this as a not too clever attempt to avoid the obvious. Every word in the English language, or any other language for that matter, suffers from exactly the same condition. That's because all languages (or at least all of them that I am familiar with) combine dictionary definitions and literary context to arrive at the meanings of words (quiz: What is the meaning of this sentence: Flying planes can be dangerous. ?) So all words, even whole sentences, require an understanding of context to get at the meaning, as well as the dictionary.

In the context of this discussion, there is no ambiguity in the meaning of "pseudoscience"; we all know what it means, and so do you, at least well enough to understand the discussion. But of course, the sooner we do away with precision in language and thought, the sooner we open to door to sloppy ideas and wishful thinking, which we can then treat as legitimate because we would not be "open minded" if we didn't. This is a philosophical approach which I reject with extreme prejudice.

The difference between science & pseudoscience is founded on methodology, not on the final result, so when I label Mozina's comments "pseudoscience" I am leveling a criticism against the manner in which he argues his position.


We must remember that, above all other things, science is a process and not a product. Because it is a process, it is applicable over a surprisingly expansive philosophical landscape, though obviously easier in some cases than others. The phenomenological study of the natural world, known in centuries past as "natural philosophy", but nowadays better known as "natural science", is one particular area of human endeavor where the methods of science are particularly well suited. Furthermore, many branches of natural science (physics perhaps chief among them) have left behind the era when prose would suffice to advance even complicated ideas, and have entered the era where mathematics is the language of choice. This is not surprising, since mathematics allows for, and indeed forces a clarity of though and precision of communication that no other language can rival. As long as we limit ourselves to prose we open the door to constant arguments over what this or that expression really means. But once we switch to mathematics, all of that ambiguity disappears. That's why pseudoscientists, with rare exceptions, avoid mathematics entirely, as Mozina for instance explicitly does, so that clarity and disambiguation can be avoided at all costs.

The reliance on prose over mathematics is a key indication that pseudoscience and not science is the topic of discussion. It is, by itself, a sufficient reason for unambiguously labeling the arguments made by Mozina in this and other threads as pseudoscience. It applies as well to the electric star and electric universe arguments of Thornhill & Scott & etc., as you probably already knew I would say. They are equally pseudoscientific, although generally somewhat more clever and less blatantly stupid. If we ever have a thread on this EU hypothesis I will be happy to expand in detail on my arguments, as will others as well I suspect.

Suffice to say that I disagree with the wishy-washy notion that the word "pseudoscience" be avoided lest we demonstrate a lack of openmindedness, or perhaps accidently offend someone. Words are a poor enough means of communication and I think we should use all the words we have.
 
Having read about some of these subject, I find that there are differences between the Electric Universe (EU), Plasma Cosmology (which may be referring to Klein-Alfvén Cosmology, that Alfvén himself calls Klein Cosmology and Symmetric Cosmology), and the Plasma Universe (PU). To suggest that there is nothing in any of these subjects that includes "math and actual quantitative scientific exploration", is demonstrably wrong as demonstrated by a number of theories which are shared in mainstream science (eg. MHD)

MHD? Really?

There are few things I hate more about EU/PC then its habit of latching on to mainstream astrophysicists' routine use of real plasma physics (including, yes, the MHD approximation) and claiming that this somehow lends legitimacy to plasma cosmology. "Look, our stuff is real physics, we used it to analyze electric fields in the Moon wake. Stop calling my aurora-australis-is-actually-dark-energy theory unscientific."

It's like a hollow-Earth crackpot saying, "You can tell this is scientific, because I cited the (true) theory of plate tectonics which contains some of my ideas."

No one is calling plasma physics unscientific. No one is calling space plasma physics unscientific. We're calling plasma cosmology unscientific. When I say plasma cosmology, I mean the specific collection of non-mainstream hypotheses (plasma absorption causes some or all redshifts, electric forces dominate galaxy rotation curves, the CMB is some sort of foreground plasma emissio, etc.) I've seen espoused by Mozina, Zeuzzz, Lerner, and yourself.

I submit that the above is perfectly obvious to everyone involved and that we don't need this level of pedantry.
 
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