Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

Status
Not open for further replies.
Please indulge Sherlock

You seem to be reasoning that because there are 2 sides claiming completely opposing positions, then the truth must be somewhere in the middle. It doesn't follow.

Where do the reasons come from for thinking that Amanda and Raff were "somehow involved"? Why, from the same lying, incompetent crowd who tried to make out they were the killers, that's where. The "staged break-in" and the "accusation" against Patrick Lumumba were both inventions of the police/prosecution as much as the supposed "murder knife" and the "DNA on the bra-clasp".

If you think that the "evidence" against them as the killers is discredited, then you have no reason to think that they were involved, either. They were both at Raff's place the entire time right up until when Amanda went back for a shower, at the time she said she did; and I'm fairly confident this will be proved in the appeal court.

Honestly, I don't know him but I think he's onto something and this thread would benefit from running with it. And you can't just slap each other's backs till 5th September.
 
I am a longtime lurker, first time poster. I have been following this case since the beginning and found this thread when it was about to be continued to the second thread b/c it had gotten so long. I googled around to find forums that discussed this case and visited each site and read the evidence, the Massei Report, etc...I at first thought that Amanda and Raffaelle were guilty, but I thought something was just strange about the way the media was presenting the case, so I wanted to dig deeper and get more facts. After finding this thread and reading the links provided for both guilt and innocence, my opinion changed. I now truly believe that they are innocent, and I cannot believe how terrible the case was handled from the beginning. I will say, that I enjoy reading this thread more than some of the others b/c I do feel that there is more civility here, than the site the guilters frequent. Some of the replies that are posted there about others on this site are terrible and talk about not throwing stones when you live in a glass house. Anyhow, thank you to all the regular posters here for all the work you guys put into the translations, explantations, etc...
Greetings Onchick2000, and welcome aboard!
I think that you would find most everyone here that believes in Raffaele and Amanda's innocence also started out with the belief in the police's theory, and their guilt, for a person generally wants to believe that the police got it right and busted the murdering culprits.

But things just didn't add up, in my book at least, and from day 1 in the investigation, the government employees sure did make a lot of errors in this case, which helped turn my opinon around, a few years ago, to 1 of innocence of any involvement in Meredith Kercher's brutal murder, as it has also for many, many others...

I look forward to your thoughts and participation. :)
RW

ETA - Welcome also Cuki777,
 
Last edited:
Yup, the grand conspiracy again. Things don't hang together without it.

No 'conspiracy' is needed to determine whether the evidence proves Raffaele and Amanda were involved in the murder beyond a reasonable doubt. That ought to be the first step, go through it and see if it stands scrutiny. If you find that it doesn't, or that the arguments against it are so damning you have to wonder how that is even possible, and no one believing in guilt can offer a rational argument in rebuttal, that perhaps is time to wonder how it could have happened. Here's a big clue, it's something I didn't even believe the first and second times I went through it. Now, here's the video so you can see Giobbi say it himself.

There's Amanda's picture tacked up on the wall next to infamous convicted criminals, in February of '08 before she'd even been charged. They didn't frame them, they 'knew' she was guilty due to her 'behavior.' As the article notes, Giobbi would go on to testify the three indications that convinced him of her guilt were that she'd wiggled her hips when she put on her booties, she broke down crying unexpectedly, and she went out eating pizza with Raffaele a few days after the murder when Giobbi was of the opinion that she ought to be in bed crying her eyes out and if she wasn't that was an indication of her guilt in the matter, a soulless hip-wiggling demoness! :p

However Mignini has to put together a case that will stand up in court, so being as they don't actually have any evidence Raffaele and Amanda were involved, everything they did find has to be twisted to implicate Raffaele and Amanda somehow in the murder. When they find the shoeprints don't actually match, they rush right out to the crime scene again and 'find' the bra clasp and luminol the floor and decide the (otherwise invisible) footprints that tested negative for blood with TMB and DNA could be introduced in court as 'bloody footprints' anyway, so at this point it does get a little fishy, but that's not how it started.

Giobbi, the SCO officer from Rome who was in charge of the investigation from the control room doesn't go in there and lie about the interrogation like the Squadra Mobile officers (Napoleoni, Ficarra and Zugarini) did, he admits he gave the order to bring them both in, that they wanted to 'study their behavior together' and that he heard Amanda scream. There's no cupcakes and tea in his version of the interrogation, it's all perfectly justified as he's already determined their 'guilt' from Amanda's 'behavior.'

Where the rubber hits the road though, the press and the court has to be convinced of their guilt, so they're defamed with anything the police can find, true or untrue, verified or not, because that works in places without sequestered juries and that's one reason other places have them. Mignini, who like Giobbi is already convinced of Amanda's guilt for stupid-ass reasons and his kooky theory gets together with his team and they find ways to make the most innocuous things sound like indications of guilt. They all 'know' she and Raffaele are guilty, they just have to 'find' the evidence, and if they can't find enough maybe they can cheat a little here and there, it's all justified for the greater good!

Here's the thing though, what if they were wrong? Is this how you'd like your police in Melbourne to be operating? Making determinations of guilt off of indications like this, excusing ridiculous theories like the ones Mignini came up with, producing evidence that doesn't stand scrutiny because it was developed with only one goal in mind, trying to 'prove' Amanda and Raffaele were involved in the murder? Or would you rather they looked at the evidence, developed rational theories as to who committed the crime, and if they had arrested people off the results obtained from what was done to the foreign exchange student in the middle of the night based on strange hunches and bizarre theories, to release the college students and just prosecute the burglar who matches the evidence and which makes so much more sense that fitting him into the bizarre theory based on 'behavioral analysis' methods that would be laughed at by anyone with a passing interest in the study of human behavior?

That's why they had to lie and cheat, not to frame them, but to justify their arrest off of grounds like this and to make everyone forget they made a mistake with Patrick. Why take the blame for the 'lies' of the irresistible vixen who 'fooled' them into making huge mistake? With virtually no oversight or punishment possible, what's to make them fess up or prevent them from going beyond the bounds of propriety in the interests of the 'greater good?' That also happens to save them from having to admit a mistake and that their salacious theory that made the worldwide news was really a damned idiotic and perverse way to 'investigate' a crime?

They never stopped and considered the fact they might be innocent, that's how they got into this mess, and I'm guessing you might have made the same mistake. Sometimes it looks like you might think the cops being incompetent and corrupt must be an indication of Raffaele and Amanda's guilt! Anyone who says they are must be lying or 'spinning' on their behalf, thus can't be believed because no matter how much evidence they produce to back their contentions no police force and court could actually be that corrupt! I actually sympathize with that point of view because the same thing occurred to me, however try it this way once:

If Raffaele and Amanda are innocent, what could have possibly have happened to get them convicted in the trial of the first instance? Think of it as trying to reconstruct a bizarre historical event. Or you can just sit it out and wait for the verdict, it won't be long now. However you're not going to find anyone making a rational case for guilt because it can't be done. That's why no debate can be allowed on any of the guilt sites, five JRERs from this thread would make them look like nasty, irrational fools against the whole house. There's standing invitations from Bruce Fisher, Phantom Wolf and Komponisto to debate one on one, none of them will take them up on it.

Maybe it's time to consider that Raffaele and Amanda might actually be innocent, and the conspiracy theories, excuses whining about meanies and outright disinformation on the guilt sites are a product of that.
 
The evidence is in Rudy's left blood stained shoe print that shows he could not have locked the door when he left - that leaves only Amanda and Raff who were there.

While we're doing fiction....it could have been Rudy returned.

Amanda and Raffaele didnt leave any footprint, and there's no proof they shut any door.
 
Last edited:
Involvement? What scenario makes senses to you?

Honestly, I don't know him but I think he's onto something and this thread would benefit from running with it. And you can't just slap each other's backs till 5th September.
-

cuki777,

my roommate is more of a skeptic than I am. I'll believe anything with very little proof. She brings me back down to earth with her critical thinking skills in more ways than one.

She doesn't know for sure whether either are guilty or innocent, but she thinks there is a higher probability they are both innocent rather than guilty of anything. She also believes there is a possibility of involvement somehow, but the only kind of involvement that makes sense to her is being more suspicious that something horrible had happened earlier than they let on. She thinks that was about the time Amanda went to shower at her house.

But that's it. She can't come up with any other kind of scenario that takes into account and makes sense considering all the evidence that we know of at this time.

I believe they are 100% innocent, but I can see her point what with some of the things Raffaele says etc., but to me it can also be argued they are innocent things resulting from nervousness or not thinking clearly or just being scared,

Dave

-
 
Did you know that when you edit an image in photoshop it will leave some extra tags behind in the metadata that indicate when it was last edited. If your conspiracy theory were real, one might expect to find such evidence that show the photos were edited before they were made available to the defense and handed to the press.

No, as a matter of fact I have no idea how that works, just wondering. I suppose the defense must have checked that already then, never mind. If there's no evidence of that then the footprints couldn't have been highly diluted blood. As they tested negative for blood with TMB, that pretty much rules out they were the result of the 'bathmat boogie' or pure blood involved in the murder. Since they kinda meander towards Amanda's room from the bathroom it doesn't seem implausible at first glance.

I do think it's interesting they did the luminol tests the day after hearing about the 'bathmat boogie' then produced them in court as 'bloody footprints' despite all the obvious falsifiers.
 
I am a longtime lurker, first time poster. I have been following this case since the beginning and found this thread when it was about to be continued to the second thread b/c it had gotten so long. I googled around to find forums that discussed this case and visited each site and read the evidence, the Massei Report, etc...I at first thought that Amanda and Raffaelle were guilty, but I thought something was just strange about the way the media was presenting the case, so I wanted to dig deeper and get more facts. After finding this thread and reading the links provided for both guilt and innocence, my opinion changed. I now truly believe that they are innocent, and I cannot believe how terrible the case was handled from the beginning. I will say, that I enjoy reading this thread more than some of the others b/c I do feel that there is more civility here, than the site the guilters frequent. Some of the replies that are posted there about others on this site are terrible and talk about not throwing stones when you live in a glass house. Anyhow, thank you to all the regular posters here for all the work you guys put into the translations, explantations, etc...


Welcome to the forum, Onchic!

Rolfe.
 
Last edited:
No, as a matter of fact I have no idea how that works, just wondering. I suppose the defense must have checked that already then, never mind. If there's no evidence of that then the footprints couldn't have been highly diluted blood. As they tested negative for blood with TMB, that pretty much rules out they were the result of the 'bathmat boogie' or pure blood involved in the murder. Since they kinda meander towards Amanda's room from the bathroom it doesn't seem implausible at first glance.

I do think it's interesting they did the luminol tests the day after hearing about the 'bathmat boogie' then produced them in court as 'bloody footprints' despite all the obvious falsifiers.

I'd been thinking along the same lines, in terms of wondering whether the footprints would've been as bright as they were if they'd been made in highly diluted blood. I'm still not clear on that either way, but your theory of the pictures having been artificially brightened is an interesting one.

However if it isn't possible that this could've happened without being noticed, I wonder if misapplication of the luminol might've had the same effect? IIRC Garafano said the police had over-applied the luminol and that this explained the blurred nature of the prints.

(ETA: And I guess the camera settings for the photographs might have played a part as well?).
 
Last edited:
I like your room mate

-

cuki777,

my roommate is more of a skeptic than I am. I'll believe anything with very little proof. She brings me back down to earth with her critical thinking skills in more ways than one.

She doesn't know for sure whether either are guilty or innocent, but she thinks there is a higher probability they are both innocent rather than guilty of anything. She also believes there is a possibility of involvement somehow, but the only kind of involvement that makes sense to her is being more suspicious that something horrible had happened earlier than they let on. She thinks that was about the time Amanda went to shower at her house.

But that's it. She can't come up with any other kind of scenario that takes into account and makes sense considering all the evidence that we know of at this time.

I believe they are 100% innocent, but I can see her point what with some of the things Raffaele says etc., but to me it can also be argued they are innocent things resulting from nervousness or not thinking clearly or just being scared,

Dave

-

This is the kind of discussion I'm interested in. From everything I've read (loads), this has the feel of AK unleashing something that went way beyond her intent and she was keen to cover it up. RS by being in a relationship with her got caught up in this and he happens to be a bad liar. Between the 'facts' we have are enormous spaces where conversations could have gone on between these main players. These conversations are unlikely to be 'evidence' because they were not recorded or witnessed.

I think you deserve a scenario so . . . RG lives a few hundred yards from RS. If AK - as a 'prank' - saw him in the street and told him MK was alone and secretly fancied him she would feel terrible about the resulting catastrophe. I can't 'prove' this but this level of involvement fits with their behaviour.
 
Thanks for the welcome.

I'm an Involvementer.

To

a) Be directly part of a bloody stabbing and sexual assault and not only leave no DNA but come a way with barely any injury and get rid of all blood stained clothes is very unlikely.

b) For neither AK or RS to 'crack' and 'spill the beans' despite external and internal pressure is also unlikely - they need a fundamental innocence-of-murder to cling onto.

but . . . well I've started itemising particular statements that don't ring true to me as a fellow human being.
 
Hi Katody Matrass

Why do you think did Raffaele say that nothing was stolen, if he was involved? I can't see how you can infer his involvement from it logically.

Sorry for late reply - working.

To say 'there has been no theft' with such authority implies a) you know too much about the details of the break in b) you are trying to steer the police to look on this as an intruder not just a burglar
 
This is interesting. I wish these people who speak elsewhere about the time of death would come here and participate in the discussion, but no dice really. Not much point trying to participate over there where any newbie who doesn't immediately toe the line about these vicious sex killers Nita and Biff is greeted first with suspicion, then with accusations of insincerity, then with "thanks for stopping by".

dgfred - asks "What about all the torture before she was killed with all the small knife pricks?" which sounds a bit like Sherlock Holmes. Someone else later tells him there's no evidence that happened anyway, but that probably won't stop him. This just isn't a point. There's no narrative in which that makes any sense,

The Machine - time of death was "a few minutes after 11.30pm", because, wait for it, Massei says so. I suppose if Massei declared the sky was magenta, he'd dutifully agree....

Fiona - "But it is conveniently difficult, and it really does need expertise: it is not something where one can really understand the merits of the detailed arguments without training and experience in the field." That really disappoints me. It's not difficult at all, it's perfectly simple. But because it doesn't suit Fiona's preconceived position, it's too hard for her to understand. (Even the Fiona who didn't know what RT-PCR was one minute, but very soon by dint of library card and google was expressing her deep disappointment over the bias and incompetence of the court-appointed DNA experts....)

Stilicho - suggests agreeing ToD was 10 o'clock for the sake of argument, and says Knox and Sollecito have no alibi for that time either. First, 9.20 is the time most people think is most likely, not 10 o'clock. And second, where's the narrative that allows Knox and Sollecito to be guilty in that situation?
He then goes on to suggest that everyone can agree that the ToD was between 21.00 and 03.30 the next morning. Which is quite spectacularly pointless.

I really do begin to believe they really aren't bright enough to understand it. Which is quite difficult to believe, considering how straightforward the reasoning is. Either that, or it's one of the most spectacular examples of confirmation bias I have ever seen.

Rolfe.
 
Last edited:
Sorry for late reply - working.

To say 'there has been no theft' with such authority implies a) you know too much about the details of the break in b) you are trying to steer the police to look on this as an intruder not just a burglar


Or that you're just too naive to figure out someone might start building bricks with no straw out of a poorly-considered remark made in a stressful situation.

It even occurs to me that someone who was actually guilty might be watching what they said and avoiding saying anything that might imply excessive knowledge.

Rolfe.
 
Interesting...

I think you deserve a scenario so . . . RG lives a few hundred yards from RS. If AK - as a 'prank' - saw him in the street and told him MK was alone and secretly fancied him she would feel terrible about the resulting catastrophe. I can't 'prove' this but this level of involvement fits with their behaviour.
-

culi777,

ok that IS an interesting scenario, but there is no evidence to back it up, because you are assuming Amanda knew Meredith was home and knew Rudy well enough to play that kind of prank and also assumes Meredith letting. The problem is the evidence points to Rudy already being in the house and immediately attacking Meredith upon her arriving, or assumes that she would cheat on her boyfriend and also Rudy's Skype call etc etc.

It's a very interesting scenario none the less, but doesn't make sense to me or my roommate.

Sorry.

What does everyone else think?

Dave

-
 
Last edited:
Honestly Dave, I think it would be really cool if your roommate signed up for a JREF account of her own.

Rolfe.
 
Or that you're just too naive to figure out someone might start building bricks with no straw out of a poorly-considered remark made in a stressful situation.

It even occurs to me that someone who was actually guilty might be watching what they said and avoiding saying anything that might imply excessive knowledge.

Rolfe.

Hi Rolfe. 1. Generally, I'm not that naive. 2. I agree it's a 'poorly-considered remark'. 3. I'm not taking a pro-guilt stance 4. An 'amateur' trying to hide their involvement is likely to slip-up a few times.
 
No, you're probably not that naive. I don't think the word "streetwise" was invented to describe Raffaele Sollecito though.

What I really mean is, that remark can be interpreted in a number of ways. By no stretch of the imagination is it strong or irrefutable evidence of guilt.

Rolfe.
 
I've gone off your roommate

-

culi777,

ok that IS an interesting scenario, but there is no evidence to back it up, because you are assuming Amanda knew Meredith was home and knew Rudy well enough to play that kind of prank and also assumes Meredith letting. The problem is the evidence points to Rudy already being in the house and immediately attacking Meredith upon her arriving, or assumes that she would cheat on her boyfriend and also Rudy's Skype call etc etc.

It's a very interesting scenario none the less, but doesn't make sense to me or my roommate.

Sorry.

What does everyone else think?

Dave

-

Fair enough - it was a bit of an off the cuff scenario and I said I couldn't prove it but it gets the ball rolling. AK initially denied ever knowing RG and then admitted a couple of meetings - why deny it initially? If the 'prank' involved lending RG her key . . .
 
Thanks for the welcome.

I'm an Involvementer.

To

a) Be directly part of a bloody stabbing and sexual assault and not only leave no DNA but come a way with barely any injury and get rid of all blood stained clothes is very unlikely.

b) For neither AK or RS to 'crack' and 'spill the beans' despite external and internal pressure is also unlikely - they need a fundamental innocence-of-murder to cling onto.

but . . . well I've started itemising particular statements that don't ring true to me as a fellow human being.

Hi cuki777. Virtually all of the reported anomalies about the defendants' statements and behavior have been addressed here in the past. May I suggest you use this thread's search function (upper right corner) to review particular items?

For example, the other day you mentioned the article in The Mirror from November 4th, 2011. The author of that article was Kate Mansey. Since we have discussed (and refuted) it several times before, you can find those previous discussions by searching for Kate Mansey in the separate threads.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom