Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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As a side note: the reason why I'm primarily concerned with the issue of the legal guilt (or non-guilt) of Knox and Sollecito is that this is the only thing that really matters. And in addition, it will probably be impossible to ever fully ascertain their factual culpability or innocence.

The only thing that matters is whether there is sufficient evidence to find Knox and/or Sollecito guilty (beyond all doubt based in human reason) of the crimes with which they are charged. If there is not sufficient evidence to do so - and I'm personally convinced that this is the case here - then they both should be acquitted. And in law that also means that they are considered factually innocent of criminal acts. It's interesting to have a side debate on whether one thinks Knox and Sollecito were actually involved to any degree (I pretty strongly believe that they were totally uninvolved, but I can't be certain), but this is not the issue that's being addressed in Perugia right now.

Very good post.

The prosecution have failed to convince anyone of the other pairs guilt. At best noone really knows if they did have something to do with the murder, or the night in question, as most PMFer's would... (well they wouldn't agree on anything except with each other)

Another hugely important issue in this non-display of guilt is time served.

Time served is crucial in my mind because even if they had some involvement which seems unlikely, they've already paid, and paid and paid..............
 
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He was apparently aware of her Facebook page, would he have gotten this information online, or had it been taken down by January of '88?

Perhaps that should be "2008"


It might be useful to search for references to Amands's Facebook page looking for references to it being closed.
 
Time served us crucial in my mind because even if they had some involvement which seems unlikely, they've already paid, and paid and paid..............

Thats what I'm thinking, TIME has allowed the details and false "garbage" evidence to be found out, to surface and be eliminated.

To assign some new guilt theory against Amanda, now they have to leave the knife out, for example.

To assign suspicion on Nov 2, they have to leave the 112 call out. etc..etc..

Theres all the ToD and Cell data now, so its not so easy to make up things and get away with it, as in the Matteini days.

And if they try to separate the two, then they lose Curatolo vision (while high on heroin).

TIME.... I ask myself do I think Amanda and Raffaele went and killed between 9:26pm and 10:13pm? and I can't see that happening. Theres no motive or proof of harboring hate for each other. Actually the opposite that Raffaele would hate Meredith, and Amanda and Meredith did things together several times, even the time Rudy came over invited.

Then Rudy began coming over uninvited...
 
Very good post.

The prosecution have failed to convince anyone of the other pairs guilt. At best noone really knows if they did have something to do with the night in question, or even the murder, as nearly all the PMFer's would... (well they wouldn't
agree on anything except with each other)

Another hugely important issue in this non-display of guilt is time served.

Time served us crucial in my mind because even if they had some involvement which seems unlikely, they've already paid, and paid and paid..............



That is very interesting - as I keep reading more and more about this case, I find more and more people who now believe that the two were involved to some extent, but didn't actually commit the murder - and if this is the case, what would a fair outcome be? For me, it would be time served already, except they haven't come clean and it is probably too late for that thanks to their lawyers and parents, plus who would believe them now anyway. So they can serve out their 26 and 25 year sentences and dream about what life would have been like if they hadn't listened to their lawyers and parents. Sad in a way, because I think Amanda was really close to telling all in the beginning.
 
Thats what I'm thinking, TIME has allowed the details and false "garbage" evidence to be found out, to surface and be eliminated.

To assign some new guilt theory against Amanda, now they have to leave the knife out, for example.

To assign suspicion on Nov 2, they have to leave the 112 call out. etc..etc..

Theres all the ToD and Cell data now, so its not so easy to make up things and get away with it, as in the Matteini days.

And if they try to separate the two, then they lose Curatolo vision (while high on heroin).

TIME.... I ask myself do I think Amanda and Raffaele went and killed between 9:26pm and 10:13pm? and I can't see that happening. Theres no motive or proof of harboring hate for each other. Actually the opposite that Raffaele would hate Meredith, and Amanda and Meredith did things together several times, even the time Rudy came over invited.

Then Rudy began coming over uninvited...

Here's a new quilt theory. Rudy broke in and murdered Meredith at around 9:20. Then Mignini and co assigned evidence like murder times to naturally coincide with the period Raff couldn't be on his computer, tossed the interrogation tapes, burned the hard drives, failed completely to establish any form of complicity or a coherent framework that could possibly enable these three random people to unite in a vicious murder like that etc etc. In short, the correct version is they just framed the other two because that's the silly story they originally fed the press.

The Perugian police force and prosecution, in general and individually should be sued and taken for everything they've got..
 
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That is very interesting - as I keep reading more and more about this case, I find more and more people who now believe that the two were involved to some extent, but didn't actually commit the murder - and if this is the case, what would a fair outcome be? For me, it would be time served already, except they haven't come clean and it is probably too late for that thanks to their lawyers and parents, plus who would believe them now anyway. So they can serve out their 26 and 25 year sentences and dream about what life would have been like if they hadn't listened to their lawyers and parents. Sad in a way, because I think Amanda was really close to telling all in the beginning.

This is one of the huge differences in Italian and American law.

In America you can be there that night, sort of know what went on but be convicted of some minor type of offence which carries a lesser penalty. (I can't remember which one but I don't think it's aiding and abetting.
In short you can be the type of person who doesn't do those sort of things but can just be around while they happen.

In Italy if you were in the kitchen while a nutcase like Rudy was doing his own dirty thing in another room, you're f***ed, for 25 years.
Although True Justice For My Website tells us, and tells us, and tells us that Italian law is perfect, and Mignini is very nice and good at his job, they might not be 100% accurate in this obsevation.
This could be exactly the type of case where if the punishment did fit the crime, a bit of truth might leak out. As it is everybody, no matter what their degree of involvement gets those intolerably heavy penalties so noone's going to speak.
An aberration in Italian law perhaps ?????

Anyway what I really meant by that statement is they have been punished.
If you let them out now there is no doubt that they have been greatly hurt by the crime and paid extravagantly already.

Having said that I don't think they have anything to do with Rudy's break-in murder at all...
 
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That is very interesting - as I keep reading more and more about this case, I find more and more people who now believe that the two were involved to some extent, but didn't actually commit the murder -

That's because there are a load of gullible twerps on the other two sites who believe anything the prosecution tells them. Sure, that's the latest backdown story because Mignini and co knew in advance that there wasn't any doubt that the knife and bra-clasp are certain to fail. These are the two pieces of evidence that place them at the crime and they just won't work now so it's time for a different story.


Don't forget PMFer's believed female student flatmate, and concert and chocolate going Facebook friend Amanda led the other two in a sex attack cos the cops told 'em it was true !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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That is very interesting - as I keep reading more and more about this case, I find more and more people who now believe that the two were involved to some extent, but didn't actually commit the murder - and if this is the case, what would a fair outcome be? For me, it would be time served already, except they haven't come clean and it is probably too late for that thanks to their lawyers and parents, plus who would believe them now anyway. So they can serve out their 26 and 25 year sentences and dream about what life would have been like if they hadn't listened to their lawyers and parents. Sad in a way, because I think Amanda was really close to telling all in the beginning.

I think you've been hanging out on the wrong boards, Sherlock. :)

Curatolo, the 'witness' to break the alibi was laughed out out of court so he could rejoin his friends in prison. Both DNA items of evidence were panned by the Italian experts just as they were by the American forensic DNA experts who wrote and signed the open letter, and the court chortled with the experts as they conclusively deconstructed the other forensic efforts. None of the evidence is going to stand up, and the cops have been caught in too many lies.

When the police take a college girl into a backroom in the middle of the night and put the screws to her for seven hours concluding a four day period in which she spent 52 or so hours with them, then arrest three people on the basis of worthless statements like this and then find evidence of only one person who isn't amongst those three, odds are the cops really screwed the pooch. When everything they produce as evidence wilts under a cursory examination, odds are they just should have done the right thing in the first place and let all three go instead of tried to pretend the idiot theory the kook prosecutor just pulled out of his posterior with no evidence to base it on could still possibly be true.

Judge Hellmann doesn't appear amused, he's getting awfully snappish with the prosecution and denying their requests and questioning their actions. All forms have to be filled out correctly but it's looking mighty grim for the prosecution, pretty soon it's we're going to be makin' bacon here. There's absolutely nothing specific tying either of those two to the scene outside things you'd expect to find anyway 'cause Amanda lived there.

Just what kind of evidence can you produce against Amanda and Raffaele that is really that much better than what would be compatible with Nara and Toto in a sordid three-way sex-orgy thrill kill? They had opportunity, Mignini will think up a motive! Pickles and Pampers! Now that's the sex-murder video reconstruction Mignini deserves to have to show to the court! Stock up on disposable bags!

:)
 
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Barbie N

This is what gets me about Barbie Naderu, she was on CNN after the DNA was shown to be through contamination.
She then held up the Massei report, and then said that they may get off due to time served, the only time they have served was to the crap that the prosecution put before the Massei court.
IMO there was nothing to place these two at the crime scene.
So four years for sweet nothing and that is time served, how can person be so nasty?
Sorry to say, in her writings, she has made Amanda look like a street whore which is far from the truth of the real Amanda
:mad:
 
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That is very interesting - as I keep reading more and more about this case, I find more and more people who now believe that the two were involved to some extent, but didn't actually commit the murder - and if this is the case, what would a fair outcome be? For me, it would be time served already, except they haven't come clean and it is probably too late for that thanks to their lawyers and parents, plus who would believe them now anyway. So they can serve out their 26 and 25 year sentences and dream about what life would have been like if they hadn't listened to their lawyers and parents. Sad in a way, because I think Amanda was really close to telling all in the beginning.

Who ya reading? Neadau? Pisa? Even these two bastions of the written inaccuracy have changed their tune of late. The who , what , and where are gone....long gone. DNA gone, Toto gone (although that is a pity because he actually gives the defendants a perfect alibi.), Mignini has been silenced...Comodi has been called "less then candid" by the new judge. Maresca has been gaveled to silence.

You may be reading PMF or TJMK but I see the numbers there going down and down. No one with knowledge of the facts in this case thinks the defendants are guilty of anything...well, I actually think they were guilty of stupidity early on but they were young and innocent back then...now they are older and wiser and diminished. And not guilty beyond any reasonable doubt. Me personally ....I think 100% innocent for these two defendants. Rudy Guede is 100 % guilty. Mignini is 100 % guilty of abuse of office. Stefanoni is guilty of false statements and obstruction and withholding evidence. Monica Napolini is guilty of incompetence at her job...and giving false statements in court. Rita Fiquera is guilty of slapping Amanda in the back of the head....Maresca is guilty of being a sniveling weasel. Peggy Ganong is guilty of being a dried up ole hag. Peter Quennell is guilty of abusing a ballet dancer and hosting a tasteless injustice site...but AK and RS...not guilty! 100%
 
That is very interesting - as I keep reading more and more about this case, I find more and more people who now believe that the two were involved to some extent, but didn't actually commit the murder - <snip>


I seriously doubt that.
 
<snip>PS - My old dog Tang did finally eat late last night, but gave up his lil' doggie soul and departed this morning. I miss him...R.I.P. Tang, Tang

Thank you for so generously sharing your stories and experiences with us, Randy. I'm glad Tang let you off the hook for the decision about when he would die.

Is that avatar photo from last night?
 
That is very interesting - as I keep reading more and more about this case, I find more and more people who now believe that the two were involved to some extent, but didn't actually commit the murder - and if this is the case, what would a fair outcome be? For me, it would be time served already, except they haven't come clean and it is probably too late for that thanks to their lawyers and parents, plus who would believe them now anyway. So they can serve out their 26 and 25 year sentences and dream about what life would have been like if they hadn't listened to their lawyers and parents. Sad in a way, because I think Amanda was really close to telling all in the beginning.

I seriously doubt that.

I agree Mary_H. I believe the point Sherlock Holmes makes about people backing off guilty of direct participation in the murder to just some involvement is a valid one, however. These people now have reasonable doubt in the prosecutions case and would most likely vote not guilty if they were on the jury. This is significant progress, in my opinion.
 
Too Low

I can't tell you how many times I have referred back to this post of Frank's:

http://web.archive.org/web/20100806235709/http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/09/too-low.html

Nor how many times I have been told that Frank is not a reliable source.

The issue of a serious lack in discovery is one of the central pieces of Raffaele's appeal and was highlighted by the recent problems that even the court's independent experts had in obtaining the necessary data to do their review.

From the link above:

The coroners found kind of strange that a too low result then becomes instead perfectly readable. Also they were not satisfied with data, which they thought were still not sufficient to justify the result. Apparently the defenses gave a big importance to this lack of data. Indeed I heard they had promised for today big issues (why nobody tells me things?).

And yes, both defenses tried to do something, they explained that without raw data, without knowing the setting of the machine we still don't know how we got to that result. And they filed a claim to the judge. A little claim, simply the annulment of Micheli's decree of trial. Which means to cancel the whole process and send everyone home, free. As a sub-claim they asked to invalidate the sole DNA results.

It is important to review again the history that led up to this request. From RS appeal.

Following the conclusion of preliminary investigations, the defense could review the technical report of forensic genetic investigations in
signature of Dr. Patrizia Stefanoni, to which were attached tables
who reported only the number of alleles, without which they would
specify any other information or scientific data.....Given the extreme importance of this for proof on
indication of Prof. Pascali expert defense Raffaele
Reminder, on June 24, 2008 - pending the period of 20 days
under Article. 415 bis -, was made an initial request to
Prosecutor acquisition diagrams in electropherograms
whereby the forensic results came in content
Technical report on forensic genetics. In particular, this request is
have specified the absolute necessity (in order of presentation
defensive pleadings and petitions under Article. 415 bis cpp) to have
the aforementioned documents available to the consultant of the
could examine it in detail;
- However, against all evidence, the prosecutor dismissed the
request was deemed inadmissible "because the option in all.art.415
cpp a cover secured and only those acts ";

To deal with a similar unjust refusal, the defense made on
July 3, 2008, a further instance in which it sought to "acquire
forensic laboratories of the numerical values and RFU
peaks on all findings, or alternatively to obtain police
Scientific CDROM containing the raw data and peak RFU.It was asked,
Moreover, in case it was not possible to obtain copies of these data, that the
Prof. Pascali was allowed to go to the police service
science for a spot inspection of the data and make it directly
computerized copy;
- Even that request, however, was inexplicably rejected on 11
July 2008 with the anodyne statement that "on the charts of
Forensic there are already bars with generic value on
fluorescence peaks.

Preliminary hearing of 16 September 2008, the defense reiterated
request to acquire numerical values RFU and peaks at all
findings or, alternatively, to acquire the CD-ROM containing the raw data RFU
and peaks. Instance filed in that audience was represented both
incompleteness detected in the diagrams attached to the report, both
Repeated requests made to the office of Chief Prosecutor
obtain missing data;..(snip)....On September 25, 2008 in observance of the provision of Gup is
was deposited by association. Zugarini on behalf of Dr. Stefanoni, the
CD-Rom containing the requested data. In this regard like to highlight as
the immediate acceptance of the instance in question proves
unequivocally from the outset the importance of having the data available
full scientific;
- Hearing on September 27, 2008, was then represented to the Gup
need to obtain additional documentation because
incomplete data, therefore, was asked to
Court to acquire the service files (log files);
- However, the Judge, after seeking an opinion to Dr. Stefanoni has
also rejected the application based on an uncritical adherence to its
comments, coming to claim that "not be needed
nformation contained in the logs (data nell.esperienza forensic
are never identified, resulting standards approved by the parameters
internationally and which appear to be in use in all
Laboratories engaged in Forensic Genetics).
Such an established procedure is not, of course, acceptable under
no point of view, since the unconditional adherence to
observations of Dr. Stefanoni, has led to support the contention accusatory, without the technical-scientific comparison of an expert third
and impartial.

On July 18, 2009, during controesame technical consultant
Defense Raffaele Sollecito, Professor Adriano Tagliabracci, there was
an astonishing coup de théâtre, as the accusation made
questions that have created the suspicion that the prosecutor had
hold additional laboratory data ever made available to
parties. It was, in particular, data on the amount of extract
used for genetic analysis of biological material found on
hook the bra of the victim;
- In front of the defense reaction, the Office of Public Prosecutor
had to admit that there are acts performed by forensic ever
deposited at the conclusion of the investigation (in contravention
Thus the provision of art. 415 bis cpp) or sent to
Gup with the request of trial (in violation of Article. 416,
paragraph 2, cpp).
In other words, the Office of the PM or denied full discovery of documents
investigation, pushing this lesion of the right of defense to the
debate!

So now we finally arrive at the point in time of Franks post, where the defense makes it's motion to void the trial. (2BContinued)
 
Hi PDiGirolamo, LondonJohn and others.
Thanks for the condolences, I sincerely appreciate it. We are kinda like a family here, even if some of us people are strange, as an old Doors song mentions. I know that I am.:)

To get my mind away from my dog Tang's death, I went out and had a few goblets of sangria and a couple of handfulls of dollar tacos at Don Antonio's in West L.A. It helped...

Now why do I bring this up, you might ask? Well, a buncha young bucks and chicks that surf joined me for dinner. Being a wise old surfer, with much experience under my belt, I busted out a few photo's from a surftrip back in 2005 that I found this afternoon while looking for some pix of my dog Tang. When I showed the crew the surfpix, we discussed the technical aspects of my surfing, for I am tryin' to help these young dudes and chicks surf better and rip. And something dawned on me.

These photographs, as hot as they were, are 6 years old. That's a looong time ago. 6 years of pumping swells, hot summers, and good times have come and gone since that surftrip I took back in the fall of 2005 to the North Shore of Hawaii.

Can you recall something significent from 2005 also? From 6 years ago?

Rudy Guede was convicted of murder in the case we discuss. He was origianlly sentenced to 30 years in prison, I believe.

Then for some reason, of which I don't have the details in front of me right now and do not feel like digging them up, Rudy Guede got a 6 years reduction in his prison sentence. If I was the father of Meredith Kercher I would have been livid! What does that scumbag deserve 6 years off for? Strangly, the prosecution, IIRC, did not even contest this reduction!

So the guy is gonna get outta jail 6 years earlier. 6 years, which is a lot of time reduced from his sentence. And then he also got the, what is it the fast track trial break, so lets cut off 8 years too. This completely sucks!. His sentence has been basically cut in half, even though he did leave his DNA, well you know where...

I still can not get over the 6 year uncontested discount, as you might be able to see. For surely the prosecution knew Rudy Guede would also get that fast track trial discount also, and still did not contest that 6 year discount. :boggled:

Goodnight,
RW



PS - I shed many a tear today, in private and in the company of my brother and sister, though you might not know it by reading my postings today. Didn't do so in front of the friends I was with tonight though, just kept kinda jokin' around, though I let them know that my lil doggie Tang had died.
I guess we all have different ways of publicly dealing with our grief. Sound familiar?

Thanks again everyone! :)
RW

I think the reduction in Rudy's sentence (after the sentence imposed for the fast track trial) had to do with mitigation and the sentence Amanda and Raffaele received because of such.

It has been argued that the prosecution could not appeal a fast track sentence while others say it could have been done. I have been trying to find a legal cite for either argument but so far have been unable to do so.

Hypothetically, if Amanda and Raffaele would lose their appeals and the prosecution would win their appeal (against a reduced sentence), would Rudy's sentence then increase since its decrease was dependent upon the sentence of Amanda and Raffaele?

I also am sorry for your loss. Your memories of Tang will always be with you.
 
Part 2

Here is the argument made on this motion in court Google translation):

ATTORNEY BONGIORNO - With President, I ask the Court's attention on a question of a procedural nature on which we focused in the latter period and that we still synthesized in a written statement that therefore the Court will then be deposited so that any references specific acts to which I refer of course will find timely reflected in the memory. I really try to be concise, among other things, I think it's a feature,
I ask here is really only 10 minutes of time, however, really is a matter which we submit to the Court and the Court of all the attention really. The facts that we believe will submit to integrate an injury to the right of defense of the effects are those that should lead this Court to declare the nullity of the request for trial, the invalidity of the decree ordering the trial and usability evidence of a series of steps including the deposition of Stefanoni, Stefanoni the report of which was written by Dr. Stefanoni, of course, these are the conclusions. The point ... one of the central points of this process I did not escape anyone is of course the scientific evidence that DNA testing is based on a series of scientific analysis, all that concerns the scientific analysis was done following a certain procedure, the procedure which led the offices of the Scientific Police to achieve a certain result of evidence, a procedure obviously is not abstract, is a procedure that it has led to the analysis and the results are summarized in course documents, acts, these acts and procedures, these procedures are of fundamental importance for the defense as the involvement of Raffaele Sollecito, I did not escape anyone builds on this DNA evidence and then if there are any documents that explain how you got to give a DNA Raffaele Sollecito are basically the acts that led to prison, Raffaele Sollecito, are not acts of so little importance. We also say that these acts are of a relief so decisive that I truly believe that the attention is likely to be heard should have been totally different and we will see why there was a suspension, I also say that I already know the kind of opposition that is usually made when We make exceptions with regard to non-submission of documents laboratory we
it is said, "but all in all in the laboratory could also be your technical advisor was appointed Professor Power which has so important that, there's this argument once and for all has my reply, the presence of a consultant to the Defense is one thing the need of Defense to make available everything that has led to the conclusions of the Scientific Police who have since been elevated charge is another matter, so do not confuse the presence of acts necessary to the filing. Let's say that one thing that I think it is clear that in addition to professional judges give it for granted but also to non-stipendiary judges is that DNA testing is a test that is not a simple equation, but requires reading, interpretation of some data tant 'it is true that you have seen how those graphs, those peaks by the consultant of the Public Ministry have been ... by Dr. Stefanoni were read in a way, the total height does this mean for me, are read by defense counsel in another way, this means what? If I have to interpret the peaks of the graphs I need to know first of all:
1) such peaks, such as charts, 2) how those peaks have been made these graphics. This whole premise was used to clarify a number of facts of which we learned definitively only at the last hearing, but that date back to the preliminary investigation is also why the request for revocation of the request for trial, following the conclusion of the preliminary investigation is an act which is called a 415 and is the act by which it is said of Defense, "Defense, I decided to bring to trial Raffaele Sollecito because I have the following tests" lists the tests and gives the material to the defense, is the first time that the defense can defend itself, it sometimes happens that by having this material the defense back off the PM and says, "eye, look at that material is a bit 'do that survey is incomplete - or - eye that you're wrong "that is why it is important that when
close the investigation is to give everything because defense only if the defense has a complete picture can report errors, if the defense does not have a complete picture is injured in the first right which is to defend, report errors. What has happened? Following the conclusion of preliminary investigations we have been filed technical report of surveys of genetic forensic signature of Dr. Stefanoni and this is the essential point in this report that should have been a sort of complete documentation of all the elements that had Dr. Stefanoni led to certain conclusions in this report actually seeing it you are not given the scientific evidence, procedures, data that led to certain conclusions Dr. Stefanoni only because they are attached to this report only the number that identifies alleles for alleles are the peaks so this report should have said: "I have done this analysis in this way, I got the peaks in this way I'll show peaks that I got, I'll show you the numbers that I had to available "is actually a report that eventually you will see it only and exclusively the number of alleles. What were you expecting to have instead? It was expected to have a detailed description of how he arrived at those numbers, as it had arrived in those alleles but this is denied, it is clear that when we took this technical report and we have given to Our consultants, our consultants have told us: "As if this was some sort of technical advisory label where it says <<has been achieved this>>" stop, but if the Doctor does not expose Stefanoni precisely as it was the result achieved and what are the supporting documents we can not interpret this label, it is impossible to interpret, since at this point we started on the basis of these stress
consultants to report a problem, report the injury of the right of defense by telling the prosecutor and the proceedings will be attached to our memory, "Prosecutor will probably point out that an error in this report completely lacks the elements that serve the defense that is missing diagrams and electropherograms ", ie the famous graphic that you have seen and on which we are examining the consultants did not exist during the investigation and we have asked them, Annex 2 of this request will find our memory, of course, also explain why these graphs were used among other things you have seen what they are because if you do not understand the plot because it is not attributed to a person's DNA rather than to another. Despite this request and then signed a request to the Defense "please give us the diagrams" we are told that ... We are still under investigation by a 4 5 I would say that our faculty and this is the first defect defense is exercisable only on what has been filed and that we can not claim not filed any case because the prosecutor has filed those documents and we we need to work on those, so we note that those acts have a gap we are told that the option provided for in Article 415 bis of the documents filed and concern only those, of course we thought this unjust response and we made on July 3, 2008 a new request, asking at this point ... at least a sort of supplementary investigation, to acquire at the laboratories of the Scientific Police and the numerical values RFU peaks at all the exhibits, or alternatively obtained from the CD rom containing the Scientific Police raw data and peak RFU, it is obvious that they are difficult for all to follow what is required, what I'm saying is that we realized we were there from the beginning all the support that was missing were the conclusions, this is Raffaele Sollecito's DNA was missing documents that allow us
allocation and so begins this run and you will find these two instances documented in the file. The second instance we are told once again we are in the process of 15 ... of
415 a 'no we can not give you these papers we continue to ask why you do what you should - quote - on the graphs of the Scientific Police, there are already generic value of these bars will be enough "then the second instance in which even the Defense says: "you are wrong - she simply says
- Excuse me explain why? " and we are told: "You must be sufficient to

I tell you that you do not have Raffaele Sollecito to be interested because I say I'm Raffaele Sollecito, "and so we reach the preliminary hearing, preliminary hearing this obviously attaches it as a record September 16, 2008 defense that was seen already injured phase 415 bis and then saw a request for trial on
the basis of acts ever filed September 16, 2008 Defense reiterated, repeated, insists that the missing documents, reiterates its request to acquire numerical values RFU and spikes on all the findings or, alternatively, to acquire CD-ROM containing the raw data of the RFU peaks and then you see what the defense is finding a third judge saw that the prosecutor had indeed filed the documents to the judge repeated this type of request and here is the first confirmation that what I am exposing is not perhaps entirely unfounded because the answers that we were right GUP, the GUP in fact says that for the purposes of deciding, do not say this to the judges who are judges, the judge takes the preliminary hearing of witnesses when making decisions or when there is a well motivated ' Ordinance, which states that for the decision and fully understand what procedure was adopted for the analysis it is necessary that there is a depositing of these acts and then the necessary support to the conclusions that were reached, so when we said: "Look, you tell us
only mean that these data are of Raphael, but does not support this document with "the Judge actually acknowledge that something is missing. On September 25 is deposited at the hearing on behalf of Dr. Zugarini Stefanoni the CD rom containing the data that we requested. Noting that they had arrived at last we give some data to our consultants and our consultants tell us that once again they are not the complete data, but serves the file service, file service, said log files. Because we needed this service file? Because this file service whose importance I of course then I later learned was essential precisely because it contained a wealth of information that once again were not filed, here's a fact that I am a bit 'in that context, of course, the GUP when he had to take such a decision under the Ordinance says, "but all in all I've asked the Stefanoni who told me that after all this file service is not as important to you." Now I really is because they are for training and respectful of all and because Dr. Stefanoni seemed to me so I do not really relevant is that context that Dr. Stefanoni have said something wrong to the GUP that context, the same procedure in the sense that if a GUP should decide whether what he has filed the Stefanoni is complete in my opinion should not ask to ask why Stefanoni Stefanoni: "excuse is totally complete what you have deposited or wrong?" I think it is just not entirely consistent with the aims of the decision that he must ask why a thing is to ask the person concerned "well done" maybe it was one thing to ask a third party that is "sorry third party defense continues to file day in and day out instances in which he says that Dr. Stefanoni has done this work but lack of work ... but
lack of documents, the prosecutor does not file other acts "in my opinion, the judge would have had to call a third, a third appraiser and say," but he is right, however, the prosecution or the defense and Dr. Stefanoni "and instead appears in the Ordinance attach this to the judge hearing the Stefanoni says: "all things considered, since the Stefanoni says that this file is not should we move forward." These are relevant data service file if not indispensable because they indicate the height of the peak height of each peak is a parameter that must be supported and evaluated along with other parameters such as the area. During the hearing of Dr. Stefanoni you back to speak again of course because of the missing material was not the defense challenged the accuracy of the results but we've always contested that we lacked procedures. Just part of the review comes out that actually the defense once again had reason for missing data and then the judge at this point stops and says ... Dr. Stefanoni October 8 you will find the Ordinance "data for the calculation of areas related to the finding must be received," those that are indicated by Professor Pascal, who was our consultant and that the defense has repeatedly asked for, so far what we've had two instances preliminary investigations in which begged to have the data for the science lab, two other instances in the preliminary hearing, which are then finally ... which eventually gives this positive response, it will say: "all right 'you have done all these instances but now what you want, although a bit' late, then in the end will have a trickle but in the end a little 'acts they've had "the answer is no, the answer is no not only because it seems to me personally, however, unacceptable to have material evidence that supports Queen of the process I must do three hundred instances but other than that on 18 July
2009 before this court during the cross examination of defense expert Professor Raffaele Sollecito Tagliabracci at some point we have been a question with which I have obviously realized that I missed other acts, it is clear that I was particularly sensitive to this because I knew I ask for a year and a half acts, and when I heard a question that you referred to a quantity of DNA that is a fact that I try for a year and a half I guess, given the previous ones and repeat it because you did not know the earlier, the background is that we file documents instances in which we asked, I realized that there were other acts. At this point, in fact it turned out that there are other acts, so it existed in pre-trial investigation, it existed in the preliminary hearing, it existed here when we did the trial other acts, I also believe we have reported to the Court in light of the fact perhaps to defend themselves need to see numbers, data and peaks, the importance at this point ... an ordinance was issued by the Court which asked to file these papers, this is history took place under your attention so it's useless to tell you what the Court did. The conclusion is that events at the end of the preliminary investigations in the light of what has happened all this takes decisive value, have not been filed and no one can say that now because they were deposited is on record that the documents were not filed Laboratory from which one can infer the amount of biological material found on the victim's bra hook and have not been deposited and this is the importance of my exceptions, the laborato_y documents that reconstruct the steps that followed the Doctor to Stefanoni arrive at certain conclusions. Then this is the excursion, all you had to say that I have told you, we pass to the conclusions of law, I believe that
a factual standpoint, if the attachments and instances correspond to what I said and match is a matter of fact, therefore, that there was this rush of Defense and the failure of the storage card. What are the consequences? The first consequence is that frustrated sense of 415 bis, 415 bis of the purpose of defense is to know that the cards and exercises the right of defense and is also of crucial decisions, when a 415 is known as the Court may make choices such as an interrogation to ask or not ask, to request a recording evidence, to request an additional investigation, I can make this choice if you know how that material has been attributed to Raffaele Sollecito do not know if I can only ask I can not do is deposited procedural choices. The thing is that material that was missing from the beginning as I said not only was there at the time of a 415 but there was not even act that could have been a rescue and that the next transmission before the preliminary hearing , the point I remember, but I realize that it is probably unnecessary for this problem is also pronounced with the Judgement of the Constitutional Court rejected the interpretation of the '91 145 he claimed that there is no power of choice of the Public Ministry in order to acts to be included in the dossier that is, if the prosecutor has a million cards including of course those of the laboratory, including also the most useless cards that believes the prosecution must deposit them all, the Constitutional Court has recognized a real obligation on all 'Prosecution of transmitting the entire documentation gathered during the investigation only in this way being able to overcome the censorship of the constitutionality of legislation with regard to Article 24 of course right of defense paragraph 2 101 and 102, with the same Judgement and Judgement ask precisely this that refer to the assessments that will be taken by
Court, the Constitutional Court has pointed out the two requirements which fulfills this obligation of deposit, any act relating to the investigations carried out at the preliminary hearing can be removed from the full knowledge of the parties, does not say Defender of the Constitutional Court says: " no undue limitation - the Court says - it can even be placed on the knowledge of the GUP for the determinations are entitled to it. " What does "determinations are entitled to it"? On the one hand those that belong to the Defender I've said, but then there are those that belong to the GUP because when I ask you if you request the nullity of the indictment I ask you to say that I have not exercised during my preliminary investigations strategic choices that I had to exercise, I could not ask for a recording evidence, I could not ask for an interview because I did not know what I was moving, then even though the GUP could ... maybe so you know, was heard on that occasion Dr. Stefanoni there also was heard in the dark because the documents were missing, so the GUP when he took his decision he has taken in the absence of a number of crucial documents and I'm sorry but that are critical not because he says it is out of the defense but because there is an ordinance that you have taken your last hearing, if the last hearing was a decision taken by this court in which he says: "an eye missing Documents, "which means that those documents) were not there when the defense would have to decide what to do, ask for an interview or not b) when the GUP would have to decide what to do and if the Judge had decided the case had those documents not to return for trial Raffaele Sollecito, if he decided to order an expert, if he decided to change my mind as we know it? We do not know. Legally what can be done before such a thing to ignore my request to us to bring my exception
Always forward and I do not have all this interest, I have interest i_ having the cards with absolutely no gaps, no procedural errors because they do not want to start this process further then we are attentive to the legal conclusions of something that is on record that is a failure to deposit You know perfectly well that there is still significant guidance of the Supreme Court speaks of nullity whenever there is a significant injury to the right of defense for which it is believed that these documents are missing that you were willing to acquire Defense crucial for the conclusion is necessarily the invalidity of the request for indictment of the decree ordering that the proceedings there and then that famous orientation that tends to the preservation of the pleadings that enhances the use of more ... the usability in terms of course probative evidence of why you should also get not only the invalidity of the request for trial but you could say: "We still think it at least a few acts that can be used?" this answer is "not even this can be considered" why? Because when the examination of Dr. Stefanoni was done without any documents is obvious that the defense could not ask a few questions, for example, I could not ask the Doctor Stefanoni: "I'm sorry this document is to act I can say of his procedure on the basis of what you trained him, because there is this peak, because there is this diagram? " all these things are known and so long after that kind of usability, however, the testimony of Dr. Stefanoni is broken and what is the genetic relationship to the act and one that I reported, so there's definitely a void next to the problem usability of records and the conclusion of this is necessarily a process of regression to that earlier stage in which it occurred
vice, so conclusively in a few seconds of my conclusions, if there was a lesion of the right to defend the conclusion must be that of the void, you find only the moment in which this lesion has been determined, if we ignored the gap we could go today forward in this process, we might have of Judgments in one way or another, we have them in second grade, but this habit because it will always remain the acts to the acts that I told you everything including memory, then we look if there was injury and the questions are: is decisive or not to your purposes of deciding the DNA evidence? If you do not actually believe there has been no violation of the right of defense, but if DNA testing is critical then you need to ask, but the defense had the opportunity to examine the documents to be able to deduct against? He had charts, had the electropherograms had the amount of DNA, had the procedures? The answer you have it with you ... with all the acts that we attach to what we had and the last ordinance. Finally, conclude by pointing out that in ... by your order was placed, which was filed documentation, the documentation has been filed that no acts are the records we had requested and which have not yet been filed, so the Defense of Raffaele Sollecito in the submission of a statement where a much more complete the Maori lawyer and I resign myself to illustrate this exception Lordship really the importance of this decision.
PRESIDENT - The memory has been offered to other parties? ATTORNEY MAORI - We give a copy to the other parties.

Italian is attached:
 

Attachments

Part 3

So the defense not only never got all the needed data they were also denied the opportunity to cross examine Steffi with all the facts and figures at hand.

Here is where I believe the appeal court makes an error. They already ruled on the defense request to review this motion and it was denied. This was done prior to the C&V report and the issues they also had in getting the necessary data. If this goes to the next level, I believe there is a good basis for argument here. The fact that the defense may now be able to finally question Steffi with the data at hand (I hope they finally got a copy) may not fully repair the situation, in my opinion.

Requests rejected by the Court of Appeal The Court of Assizes of Perugia has not only accepted the demands made ​​by the defense, has rejected claims made ​​by many other defenses. A partire da quella con cui i legali degli imputati chiedevano di sospendere le provvisionali nei confronti delle parti civili immediatamente esecutive. Starting from when the lawyers of the defendants asked to suspend the provisional calendar for the parties immediately enforceable. Passando da quella con cui la difesa Knox chiedeva di dichiarare nulle le sue dichiarazioni ei suoi memoriali utilizzati contro di lei nel procedimento che la vede imputata per calunnia verso alcuni poliziotti della Questura. Moving on from that with which the defense sought to declare void Knox his statements and his memorials used against her in the proceedings in which she accused of slandering police officers to the Police Headquarters. I giudici hanno inoltre respinto le richieste di dichiarare nulla la sentenza di primo grado avanzata dalla difesa di Sollecito e quella di entrambe le difese di dichiarare nulle la richiesta di rinvio a giudizio e il decreto di rinvio a giudizio. The judges also rejected calls to declare void the decision at first instance made by the defense and to urge both the defense to declare void the request of trial and the order of trial. La corte infine, data la complessità del procedimento ha sospeso i termini della scadenza della custodia cautelare in carcere per gli imputati. The court then, given the complexity of the proceeding pending the expiration of the terms in prison custody for the accused.

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ETA.
As you can see in the post from Frank (in Part 1), the defense consultant was questioned the same day and from review of testimony the same day laments the fact that he still does not have all the data he needed to review Steffi's work (quotes from testimony to be added later). This is another example where the defense position was compromised by the lack of discovery.
 
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Why wasn't this covered more extensively in the press?

RoseMontague,

Wow. Thanks for posting this. Where were Barbie Nadeau and Andrea Vogt when Ms. Bongiorno was speaking?
 
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