MIHOP -femr2 and Major Tom's WTC1,2,7 Demolition Hypotheses

No, you did not…you danced.
Nope. The reason I asked you...

"Are you suggesting "the WTC was brought down by bombs, thermite, or a mix of both" ?" should be rather obvious to you.

Your question, again...

If the WTC was brought down by bombs, thermite, or a mix of both, why do we not see clear evidence of these on any of the dozens of videos taken on 9/11?

And as the question is utterly pointless, an utterly pointless answer for you...

IF the WTC was brought down by bombs, thermite, or a mix of both, then either you are not seeing clear evidence of these on any of the dozens of videos taken on 9/11, or the WTC was brought down by bombs, thermite, or a mix of both without clear evidence of these on any of the dozens of videos taken on 9/11.

I suggest you think through your questions before wasting my time demanding that I answer them for you.
 
Nope. The reason I asked you...

"Are you suggesting "the WTC was brought down by bombs, thermite, or a mix of both" ?" should be rather obvious to you.

Your question, again...

If the WTC was brought down by bombs, thermite, or a mix of both, why do we not see clear evidence of these on any of the dozens of videos taken on 9/11?

And as the question is utterly pointless, an utterly pointless answer for you...

IF the WTC was brought down by bombs, thermite, or a mix of both, then either you are not seeing clear evidence of these on any of the dozens of videos taken on 9/11, or the WTC was brought down by bombs, thermite, or a mix of both without clear evidence of these on any of the dozens of videos taken on 9/11.

I suggest you think through your questions before wasting my time demanding that I answer them for you.


You seem offended? So you don't believe the WTC was brought down via some method of Controlled Demolition?
 

You can't commit to anything, can you?



Considering that you spent gobs of time showing graphs of how the buildings fell, and your heavily implied sense that you don't believe NIST et al...the impression I get (as I see most others do) is that you believe that the buildings were brought down by CD...call that whatever version of MIHOP you wish.

So, I feel bad that I have to spell this out for you, but seeing that you don't believe NIST, I asked a rather simple question of you...although, it was loaded a bit I suppose. Basically, I want you to show me the proof that all your pretty little graphs mean what you're implying that they mean. I mean, the buildings were magically felled by fire, yes? Show me the video shot of the WTC where we see bombs exploding or thermite igniting.

You can create all that graphs you want, but, as theyTM say, the proof is in the pudding. How about serving up some proof to back up your drawings?
 
I want you to...
I'm not concerned about what you want I'm afraid.

show me the proof that all your pretty little graphs mean what you're implying that they mean.
I've already stated a number of observations about the trace data presented, in the appropriate thread.

Why would I spend time "proving" inferences that you have personally created or that you "believe" ?
 
I'm not concerned about what you want I'm afraid.


I've already stated a number of observations about the trace data presented, in the appropriate thread.

Why would I spend time "proving" inferences that you have personally created or that you "believe" ?

I'll mark that down as an "I can't". Thanks.
 
You know full well why I asked the question and what it implied. You can't answer it, so you played stupid. Good for you.
 
You know full well why I asked the question and what it implied. You can't answer it, so you played stupid. Good for you.
ROFL...
I want you to show me the proof that all your pretty little graphs mean what you're implying that they mean.
I'm not implying they mean anything other than the observations I've stated can be drawn from the trace data.

See the femr2 video data analysis thread for details.

Who is "playing stupid" here ? :rolleyes:
 
Is this the part of the argument when femr2 dances around like a headless chicken to avoid making an actual claim, yet simultaneously mocks debunkers for asking him what his point is?
 
...
I want you to show me the proof that all your pretty little graphs mean what you're implying that they mean. ...?

The graphs are goal free, no purpose, no conclusions; no sources for the methods used, etc. A goal free effort, and an implied claim of no theory offered, while naming videos "demolition", and hosting failed 911 papers as "technical papers" on 911. Like Balsamo not offering a theory, but spewing nonsense, no purpose past creating doubt to support hidden and/or overt motives. Balsamo creates doubt to fool those who fail to think for themselves, makes money selling DVDs of 911 nonsense. Gage has built and grown 911 truth into a non-profit business raking in +300k, all without purpose save requesting a new investigation. The graphs are like Gage, don't say much, just noise on the sidelines of 911 issues.
 
Measurements and observables, such as the consituents of the features lists, simply map actual behavior.

When presenting them, the only claim being made is that they exist and that they are accurate.


The reason actual measurements and observables are gathered into a list is to describe events, especially early motion of all buildings, as correctly and accurately as possible.

The feature lists assembled as a result are the single best record of early motion of each building available to the public.

I find this useful to have in order to verify claims of building behavior during early motion by other parties, official and other.
 
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However, such lists are pretty useless for actually determining what the actual cause is, on account of their omission of a pair of events that caused catastrophic damage to the buildings.
 
Measurements and observables, such as the consituents of the features lists, simply map actual behavior.

When presenting them, the only claim being made is that they exist and that they are accurate.


The reason actual measurements and observables are gathered into a list is to describe events, especially early motion of all buildings, as correctly and accurately as possible.

The feature lists assembled as a result are the single best record of early motion of each building available to the public.

I find this useful to have in order to verify claims of building behavior during early motion by other parties, official and other.


The most important measurements and observables were done by NIST engineers and analyzed by them with tools you and femr2 are unaware of. Their 10s of thousands of reviewed records and analysis from construction documents to final collapse swamp yours.

By the time your late simplistic pointless observables and femr2’s “noisy” pixilated inconsequential obsession begins, the party had been over, the Towers ran out of sufficient strength to resist accumulating unsupportable shifting loads.

NIST knew , especially towards the end that the buildings continually deformed as the loads shifted. Your obsession with, for experienced engineers, pointless measurements do not reverse their conclusion that fire and damage collapsed the buildings. The building codes I and structural engineers work with have been revised with stronger fireproofing and stronger structural connections requirements directly due to the NIST 9/11 investigation and their recommendations.

Because you are not a structural engineer you don’t understand how pointless your obsession with your measurements and observables are. Nor do you understand why ROOSD and the Seven Sisters would cause peels of structural engineering laughter and derision. You will not understand why the engineers will never reverse their conclusion that fire and damage brought down the Towers.

As Beachnut noted, you and femr2 could have received by now an engineering degree, instead of squandering these thousands of hours in obscure inconsequential web sites pursuing ephemeral unearned respect.

In the real world where things get done, all your (and femr2’s) vainglorious claims are unconvincing, pointless and inconsequential. Sorry.
 
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The most important measurements and observables were done by NIST engineers and analyzed by them with tools you and femr2 are unaware of. Their 10s of thousands of reviewed records and analysis from construction documents to final collapse swamp yours.

By the time your late simplistic observables and femr2’s “noisy” pixilated inconsequential obsession begins, the party had been over, the Towers ran out of sufficient strength to resist accumulating unsupportable shifting loads.

NIST knew , especially towards the end that the buildings continually deformed as the loads shifted. Your attention to, for experienced engineers, pointless measurements do not reverse their conclusion that fire and damage collapsed the buildings. The building codes I and structural engineers work with have been revised with stronger fireproofing and stronger structural connections requirements directly due to the NIST 9/11 investigation and their recommendations.

Because you are not a structural engineer you don’t understand how pointless your obsession with your measurements and observables are. Nor do you understand why ROOSD and the Seven Sisters would cause peels of structural engineering laughter and derision. You will not understand why the engineers will never reverse their conclusion that fire and damage brought down the Towers.

As Beachnut noted, you and femr2 could have received by now an engineering degree, instead of squandering these thousands of hours in obscure inconsequential web sites.

In the real world where things get done, all your (and femr2’s) vainglorious claims are unconvincing, pointless and inconsequential. Sorry.

So stuff like measurables and observables are pretty pointless in the "real world"?

Basically, you have faith that the NIST measured and recorded the early movement of WTC1, for example, better than in the feature list does, but kept the measurements secret?

They really know about early antenna movement, and the pull-in of the NW corner, and the earliest visible ejection from the 95th floor but didn't mention them to us novices? They knew the early tilt angles over which all columns failed but didn't think it was important to us novices?

When the NIST claims of WTC1 early motion and the WTC1 collapse initiation mechanism are tested against the observables and measurables we can all verify from the outside of the building, their claims prove to be untrue.

How do you personally test NIST claims for accuracy if you do not require any accurate measurements of early motion?

......................................

Isn't it kind of important to extract the following basic information from video??

1) Where were the first signs of over-pressurization leading into the collapse initiation sequence?

2) What part of each building moved the earliest leading into the visible collapse initiation sequence?

3) How long before the first signs of visible movements can we detect any type of creeping or swaying? (How far back can we take the collapse initiaton data and detect movement?)

4) What are the most accurate logs of trajectories of early movement of each building available in the public domain? How did each building move leading into and during the collapse initiation sequence?


These are fundamental questions that the NIST should know, wouldn't you think? After discussing the buildings so much, the regular posters should be able to successfully extract these basic clues from the available video.

In the case of WTC1, the NIST claims concerning each of these basic questions is provably incorrect.

And as for the JREF regulars, there in nobody posting that can answer these basic questions correctly.
 
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By the time your late simplistic pointless observables and femr2’s “noisy” pixilated inconsequential obsession begins, the party had been over, the Towers ran out of sufficient strength to resist accumulating unsupportable shifting loads.
So stuff like measurables and observables are pretty pointless in the "real world"?

Y'know, if someone was skimming, they might not actually notice the difference between what Basque said and what you responded to.
 
So stuff like measurables and observables are pretty pointless in the "real world"?
Yours are. The final ones you took are meaningless to determine the cause of collapse.

Basically, you have faith that the NIST measured and recorded the early movement of WTC1, for example, better than in the feature list does, but kept the measurements secret?
NIST noted the progressive buckling of the perimeter columns which you didn't do, a serious oversight for someone who claims "the most complete record of early movement" or somesuch.

They really know about early antenna movement, and the pull-in of the NW corner, and the earliest visible ejection from the 95th floor but didn't mention them to us novices? They knew the early tilt angles over which all columns failed but didn't think it was important to us novices?
All caused by the effects of fire and planes damage, unless you are now ready to confess otherwise.

When the NIST claims of WTC1 early motion and the WTC1 collapse initiation mechanism are tested against the observables and measurables we can all verify from the outside of the building, their claims prove to be untrue.
Not so, the antenna was attached to the roof trusses tied by their outriggers to the center of the south wall perimeter columns for WTC1. The collapse of the antenna was simultaneous with the collapse of the center trusses simultaneous with the collapse of the center perimeter columns, as NIST offhandedly described, progressing to the sides etc. Antenna was firmly attached to the roof trusses firmly attached to the center perimeter columns, all collapse simultaneously.

Had the core collapsed first the predominant subsequent global collapse would have continued towards the core center pulling in the perimeter columns instead of rotating to about 8 degrees before falling vertically.

How do you personally test NIST claims for accuracy if you do not require any accurate measurements of early motion?
NIST did not depend on only measurements of "early motion" if you mean the last few seconds, to conclude fire and plane damage was the sole cause of the Towers' collapse. Their analysis was more comprehensive than only the last few seconds or minutes.
 
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The most important measurements and observables were done by NIST engineers and analyzed by them with tools you and femr2 are unaware of. Their 10s of thousands of reviewed records and analysis from construction documents to final collapse swamp yours.

By the time your late simplistic pointless observables and femr2’s “noisy” pixilated inconsequential obsession begins, the party had been over, the Towers ran out of sufficient strength to resist accumulating unsupportable shifting loads.

NIST knew , especially towards the end that the buildings continually deformed as the loads shifted. Your obsession with, for experienced engineers, pointless measurements do not reverse their conclusion that fire and damage collapsed the buildings. The building codes I and structural engineers work with have been revised with stronger fireproofing and stronger structural connections requirements directly due to the NIST 9/11 investigation and their recommendations.

Because you are not a structural engineer you don’t understand how pointless your obsession with your measurements and observables are. Nor do you understand why ROOSD and the Seven Sisters would cause peels of structural engineering laughter and derision. You will not understand why the engineers will never reverse their conclusion that fire and damage brought down the Towers.

As Beachnut noted, you and femr2 could have received by now an engineering degree, instead of squandering these thousands of hours in obscure inconsequential web sites pursuing ephemeral unearned respect.

In the real world where things get done, all your (and femr2’s) vainglorious claims are unconvincing, pointless and inconsequential. Sorry.

QFT. Excellent post.
 
Y'know, if someone was skimming, they might not actually notice the difference between what Basque said and what you responded to.

But most others notice, don't they. Blind fervor cannot overcome substantial argument.
For Rationals.
 
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