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Merged Is ufology a pseudoscience?

Actually ufology and astrology are quite different. But when you already know everything like AdMan there, I suppose there isn't much point in reading other people's opinions.

j.r.

It is not what they peddle which make them both pseudo science, it is the process used to come to the conclusion which make them pseudo science.
 
To tell the truth, it sounds a lot like religion. Or just 'delusion'.

If I was a ufologist I think I'd be copping it sweet with 'pseudoscience' in preference to a lot of other, less complimentary descriptions that could be applied...

Like, "A gigantic reeking pile of dingo dung"?
 
I might suggest to the graphic wizards here that the JREF symbol for pseudoscience should be something like a firefly flitting in an infinity pattern around a blue capital P.

I'm just an idea person.


PseudoFirefly.gif
 
An explanation without content. I like that description.


The content is there, but it's just not verifiable.


To tell the truth, it sounds a lot like religion. Or just 'delusion'.


Yeah I've thought about that. Religion often gets a pass because it's said to be based in faith instead of some form of proof or logical reasoning. And of course, "faith" is just taken by rote to mean a good thing. We've all been told from a young age that faith is one of the most important attributes to possess, because otherwise life has no meaning and one would be vulnerable to getting led astray. This may be true to some extent, but the opposite is true also. Placing our faith into the wrong things can get us into a lot of trouble. So what sorts of ideologies are worthy of devoting faith to?

I don't think religion necessarily has to be a bad thing, at least not for some people. There is some undeniable value in the promotion of positive morality, a sense of community, and the spiritual benefits that result from feeling that one is aligned with some universal force of good. Many religions do a lot of philanthropic work, including giving aid and comfort to the poor and sick. I think religion can be fine as long as it sticks to the purely intangible and philosophical. But how many religions actually do that?

Most religions contain elements of pseudoscience. The most obvious examples are the teaching of bunk myths as science. As skeptics, we're all familiar with the fundie xtian ideas that the world is a few thousand years old, the dinosaurs walked alongside mankind in the Garden of Eden, etc. I really believe that the promotion of these kinds of ideas is not only wrongheaded, but even dangerous because they have a tendency to influence peoples' real world decisions in destructive ways. The worst part is that people are indoctrinated into this nonsense from early childhood, before they've had the opportunity or capability to understand logic or the scientific method.

I was brought up Catholic and attended parochial schools, where we were taught to literally believe in the "Transubstantiation of the Host" during Communion in the Catholic mass. Transubstantiation means the priest can perform a certain ritual while making certain incantations, and the little crackers and wine sitting there on the altar will actually physically change to become the body and blood of Jesus Christ. As children, we were taught by our priests, teachers, and other authority figures that this was an unquestionable fact. They told us that after this "transubstantiation," the food and booze sitting there on the altar are not merely symbols, but have literally been physically changed by a magical miracle of God during the Mass. When we eat and drink that stuff, we are taking God into ourselves, both spiritually and physically, just like the 12 apostles had reportedly done at the Last Supper.

Now what would you call that, if not pseudoscience?

Once, in the third grade, I asked one of my religion teachers if somebody were to observe the wine under a microscope after the transubstantiation process, would they be able to see the blood cells? A few kids in the class sneered or laughed, and the teacher scolded me, saying that abusing the host in such a way is a sin that might invalidate the miracle. Special pleading, anyone?

So yeah, I don't believe religion is necessarily exempt from pseudoscience. Whenever religion (or any other ideology) purports to make claims about the material world that aren't backed up by objective analysis, then they're doing pseudoscience.

The material Universe is "the realm of science," because science is the best method we've yet devised to ascertain the qualities of the physical universe, right? We've tried all that other stuff—believing stories and whatnot—and it has never worked. Over the centuries, countless myths have been consistently knocked down by science, so why would we put our trust into any other method?
 
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...saying ufology is "in part" pseudoscience, is no different from saying medicine is "in part" quackery.

That is just stupid...no one believes that. Medicine is an actual science, while UFOlogy disguises itself as a science, even though the investigation of UFO'S IS NOT BASED ON ANY SCIENCE WHATSOEVER.

That you can't immediately recognize that fact tells us all we need to know about you.

You've played your hand too early...we understand that no amount of contrary evidence will convince you, so why should anyone pay any attention to your ignorant ramblings??

Really, why should we??
 
The Carl Sagan analogy is even more apt ... When you speak of Carl Sagan in general, you think of Carl Sagan the scientist, fiction author, lecturer, husband and pop culture personality. Why? Because all these things are part of him, not merely the cosmologist. Similarly ufology studies, culture, history, fiction ... whatever, are also part of ufology, not just the studies.

j.r.
When I think of Carl Sagan, I never think of 'Carl Sagan, the husband'. :boggled: But then, I'm not the late man's widow.
 
So it seems to me the next point of contention from our previous discussions was how to determine whether something is "presented as science."

From my point of view, any statement or idea that purports to describe the objective nature or functioning of the physical Universe is already encroaching on the realm of science. Of course that's not to say that it necessarily is science, but it could be considered as "occupying the same territory," or operating "within the jurisdiction" of science.

Of course, every ideology that concerns the nature and functioning of the physical world is not scientific. Whether or not a given statement or idea is actually scientific depends on the method by which the idea has been realized, tested and proven consistent with observable reality.

Specifically, the litmus test for science is whether it has been conceived through an informed understanding of the Universe, proven through the testing of empirical evidence, and verified through independent testing of other researchers unconnected with the original discoverer. That is the procedure which we call science.

Now, if some statement, idea or belief is promoted as being consistent with objective reality but is in fact not consistent with the proper scientific method of reasoned verification, then how do we characterize that notion?

Is it necessarily pseudoscience? Or are there other categories it can fall under?

I personally am inclined to just call a spade a spade and say that if it purports to tell us about the objective reality without properly verifying its claims, then it's 'pseudoscience".

What do you guys all think?


Q. What do I think of the above quote?

A. I've been looking forward to the above response. It is well stated and much more along the lines of what I was hoping to engage in when I joined the JREF. But what do I actually think of the content?

I respect that Mr. Albert has a personal inclination to impart a quick judgement based on loose definitions and probably basic common sense, as he says "call a spade a spade". However with respect to the bottom line of this thread, "Is Ufology a Pseudoscience?", we need to be more precise. Not anything merely promoted as being "consistent with objective reality" is applicable. The interpretation is unbalanced. The idea that the proper scientific method should be used is fine, so to be balanced, one would need to say, "promoted as using the proper scientific method, but isn't consistent with the proper scientific method." Merely expressing our informal opinions doesn't count.

We experience things regularly that are objectively real and surely we are free to share our experiences with our fellow human beings without being grouped under some derogatory label, whether we can scientifically prove them or not. We are also encouraged to share and discuss our opinions in an open and friendly manner without similar persecution. And we must be free to informally study the world around us and come to our own decisions without being accused of attempting to do science when we're not, otherwise what is happening is prejudice and a suppression of our right to personal inquiry, all in the name of science, and that would hurt the reputation of science.

Lastly, don't forget, I'm not advocating that ufology is science. So I'm not treading mud all over science by trying to force ufology on the scientific community. No harm will be done and no ground will be lost by exempting the field of ufology in general from the label of pseudoscience. In fact, ground will be gained. I fully support the idea of employing real scientists within the field to do real science when it can be properly applied. Ferreting out and amending incidents of pseudoscience that properly fit the definition is also fine with me.

So to close this post, I submit once again that given the definitions at hand, with respect to the specific question posed by this thread, ufology in general cannot be reasonably applied to the definition of pseudoscience. Science also has nothing to lose or fear from this because I'm not "promoting" ufology as science unto itself. The greatest damage to the reputation of science would be to dismiss the logic provided here in order to unfairly apply a derogatory label to an entire field of interest that is enjoyed by so many people.

j.r.
 
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Q. What do I think of the above quote?

A. I've been looking forward to the above response. It is well stated and much more along the lines of what I was hoping to engage in when I joined the JREF. But what do I actually think of the content?

I respect that Mr. Albert has a personal inclination to impart a quick judgement based on loose definitions and probably basic common sense, as he says "call a spade a spade". However with respect to the bottom line of this thread, "Is Ufology a Pseudoscience?", we need to be more precise. Not anything merely promoted as being "consistent with objective reality" is applicable. The interpretation is unbalanced. The idea that the proper scientific method should be used is fine, so to be balanced, one would need to say, "promoted as using the proper scientific method, but isn't consistent with the proper scientific method." Merely expressing our informal opinions doesn't count.
And because UFOlogy is the study of UFOs (as alien spaceships), and UFOlogy starts with their conclusion that UFOs are alien spaceships, then UFOlogy is a pseudoscience. Looking at MUFON's and USI's websites, we can see that they even want to appear scientific. Burying your head in the sand and plugging your ears won't make that go away.

We experience things regularly that are objectively real and surely we are free to share our experiences with our fellow human beings without being grouped under some derogatory label, whether we can scientifically prove them or not. We are also encouraged to share and discuss our opinions in an open and friendly manner without similar persecution. And we must be free to informally study the world around us and come to our own decisions without being accused of attempting to do science when we're not, otherwise what is happening is prejudice and a suppression of our right to personal inquiry, all in the name of science, and that would hurt the reputation of science.
No, it really doesn't hurt science's feelings that UFOlogy is a known pseudoscience. Why would you think it did? Beginning with your conclusion that UFOs are alien spaceships and pretending to use science to study them makes it pseudoscience.

Lastly, don't forget, I'm not advocating that ufology is science. So I'm not treading mud all over science by trying to force ufology on the scientific community. No harm will be done and no ground will be lost by exempting the field of ufology in general from the label of pseudoscience. In fact, ground will be gained. I fully support the idea of employing real scientists within the field to do real science when it can be properly applied. Ferreting out and amending incidents of pseudoscience that properly fit the definition is also fine with me.
No harm will be done by UFOlogy continuing to be known as a pseudoscience, just like homeopathy and astrology are. When UFOlogists continue to claim that they support the scientific method to prove their conclusion that UFOs are alien spaceships, that pretty well cements it that UFOlogy is a pseudoscience.

So to close this post, I submit once again that given the definitions at hand, with respect to the specific question posed by this thread, ufology in general cannot be reasonably applied to the definition of pseudoscience. Science also has nothing to lose or fear from this because I'm not "promoting" ufology as science unto itself. The greatest damage to the reputation of science would be to dismiss the logic provided here in order to unfairly apply a derogatory label to an entire field of interest that is enjoyed by so many people.

j.r.
No, in spite of your attempts at redefinition, UFOlogy is the study of UFOs (as alien spaceships) and it matches the definition of pseudoscience. It begins with its conclusion that UFOs are alien spaceships, it attempts to pretend to use science to study anecdotes, and it has accomplished nothing in the last 60 years. The very definition of pseudoscience.

You just can't get away from it. UFOlogy is a pseudoscience.
 
...I'm not "promoting" ufology as science unto itself.

Are you trying to convince us or yourself?


Oh, and science has nothing to worry about from your non-argument.


Why not call it what it actually "is"?...anti-science. :)
 
Q. What do I think of the above quote?

A. I've been looking forward to the above response. It is well stated and much more along the lines of what I was hoping to engage in when I joined the JREF. But what do I actually think of the content?

I respect that Mr. Albert has a personal inclination to impart a quick judgement based on loose definitions and probably basic common sense, as he says "call a spade a spade". However with respect to the bottom line of this thread, "Is Ufology a Pseudoscience?", we need to be more precise. Not anything merely promoted as being "consistent with objective reality" is applicable. The interpretation is unbalanced. The idea that the proper scientific method should be used is fine, so to be balanced, one would need to say, "promoted as using the proper scientific method, but isn't consistent with the proper scientific method." Merely expressing our informal opinions doesn't count.

We experience things regularly that are objectively real and surely we are free to share our experiences with our fellow human beings without being grouped under some derogatory label, whether we can scientifically prove them or not. We are also encouraged to share and discuss our opinions in an open and friendly manner without similar persecution. And we must be free to informally study the world around us and come to our own decisions without being accused of attempting to do science when we're not, otherwise what is happening is prejudice and a suppression of our right to personal inquiry, all in the name of science, and that would hurt the reputation of science.

Lastly, don't forget, I'm not advocating that ufology is science. So I'm not treading mud all over science by trying to force ufology on the scientific community. No harm will be done and no ground will be lost by exempting the field of ufology in general from the label of pseudoscience. In fact, ground will be gained. I fully support the idea of employing real scientists within the field to do real science when it can be properly applied. Ferreting out and amending incidents of pseudoscience that properly fit the definition is also fine with me.

So to close this post, I submit once again that given the definitions at hand, with respect to the specific question posed by this thread, ufology in general cannot be reasonably applied to the definition of pseudoscience. Science also has nothing to lose or fear from this because I'm not "promoting" ufology as science unto itself. The greatest damage to the reputation of science would be to dismiss the logic provided here in order to unfairly apply a derogatory label to an entire field of interest that is enjoyed by so many people.

j.r.

I'm convinced, from now on I'll just call UFOlogy woo.
 
I'm convinced, from now on I'll just call UFOlogy woo.


Everyone is entitled to their informal opinions. Personally the areas of ufology that fall into the definition of pseudoscience or are really bizarre, I've come to call woofology. But not in a derogatory sense, just that they are too far "out there" ... even for me.

j.r.
 
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Everyone is entitled to their informal opinions. Personally the areas of ufology that fall into the definition of pseudoscience or are really bizarre, I've come to call woofology. But not in a derogatory sense, just that for me they are too far "out there" ... even for me.

j.r.

The areas of UFOlogy that deal with the study of UFOs (as alien spaceships)? Yep, that's pretty far out there since the null hypothesis is:

"All UFO sightings are of mundane origin"​
and it's never been falsified.

So UFOlogy is a pseudoscience.
 
Everyone is entitled to their informal opinions. Personally the areas of ufology that fall into the definition of pseudoscience or are really bizarre, I've come to call woofology. But not in a derogatory sense, just that they are too far "out there" ... even for me.

j.r.

Your opinion isn't 'informal"?
 
Everyone is entitled to their informal opinions. Personally the areas of ufology that fall into the definition of pseudoscience or are really bizarre, I've come to call woofology. But not in a derogatory sense, just that they are too far "out there" ... even for me.

And yet despite the fact that you even have a name for such "areas of ufology that fall into the definition of pseudo science" you're hard pressed to name any of them. At the moment coming up with only one example and then claiming that even that wasn't pseudo science but more quack medicine.


curiouser and curiouser.
 

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