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Reasonable doubt...All truthers(and whoever esle) please read

tmd2_1 said:
... Aluminum melts silver at the temperature the fires should have been at. ...
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? What is the temperature of the massive office fires at that corner?

The aircraft impact pushed a lot of office contents to that corner, including the oxygen generators. What is the highest temperate an office fire can reach? Did you see the fire raging in that section? What temperature do oxygen generators burn at?


How many oxygen generators are on an aircraft? What happens when they catch fire?
 
tmd2_1 said:
Did you read this part? Finally, from Seattle, back came a surprising, enigmatic reply: “We are not able to tell you what it is. Security reasons.”
Implied in that is the fact that "it" is something.
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The best thing you can do if the police haul you in even for questioning, even if you're innocent, is ask for a lawyer. They say anything you say can be used in court, after all. Similarly, Truthers take even a lack of evidence as evidence.
 
tmd2_1 said:
“We are not able to tell you what it is. Security reasons.” Is a very telling quote.
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Yes, it's telling us they can't tell us what it is, for security reasons. Everything else is speculation.
 
beachnut said:
? What is the temperature of the massive office fires at that corner?

The aircraft impact pushed a lot of office contents to that corner, including the oxygen generators. What is the highest temperate an office fire can reach? Did you see the fire raging in that section? What temperature do oxygen generators burn at?


How many oxygen generators are on an aircraft? What happens when they catch fire?
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I read posts like this and I have to check the page number. Didn't you or someone else make this exact comment a week ago?
 
tmd2_1 said:
That's not quite what I'm saying (by the way I started a thread on this topic because I got the idea from this conversation) what I'm saying is I believe there is little to no evidence to link AQ or Bin laden to the attacks. There is more evidence against it. The evidence I presented in this thread to molten steel, is what is coming out of the south tower. Aluminum melts silver at the temperature the fires should have been at. NIST said it was orange because it was mixed with building materials. Experiments show those materials would fall off. So if it was Aluminum it would still be Silver. Steel was the only metal that was there in the amount of quantity that was seen melting. Other pictures of what appears to be molten steel. Steve jones ran an analysis and determined it was not aluminum. Where he got the sample I do not know though. Witnesses saying they saw molten steel.

That was just for the molten steel. Many other topics were covered. Most of the OP was ignored though.
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If Steven Jones claims to have tested steel from samples which from the floor below where the plane impacted, then he's lying. Can you provide a link where I can check that?

Further, as has been discussed in other threads, metals glow different colors whem heated to different temperatures. Since NIST never modelled this debris packed into the corner of the tower, what they wrote about the average observed temps of office fires doesn't come into play here. Aluminum glows yellow-orange at about 900 degrees. We know there was much aluminum in the cladding of the building, as well as that contained the plane debris.
 
OCaptain said:
If Steven Jones claims to have tested steel from samples which from the floor below where the plane impacted, then he's lying. Can you provide a link where I can check that?

Further, as has been discussed in other threads, metals glow different colors whem heated to different temperatures. Since NIST never modelled this debris packed into the corner of the tower, what they wrote about the average observed temps of office fires doesn't come into play here. Aluminum glows yellow-orange at about 900 degrees. We know there was much aluminum in the cladding of the building, as well as that contained the plane debris.
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I never said it was from the South Tower before the fall. He doesn't say where it is from only that he obtained it. Here is the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezIU6ZxYU3A&NR=1

Also why do you NIST would have put that qualifier as to why the metal flowing was not Silver, if it should have been Silver anyway? Doesn't make any sense.
 
tmd2_1 said:
Also why do you NIST would have put that qualifier as to why the metal flowing was not Silver, if it should have been Silver anyway? Doesn't make any sense.
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Because NIST was noting observations and suggesting explanations not trying to make a case.

Do you understand the difference?
 
DGM said:
Because NIST was noting observations and suggesting explanations not trying to make a case.

Do you understand the difference?
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Right from NIST

"NIST concluded that the source of the molten material was aluminum alloys from the aircraft, since these are known to melt between 475 degrees Celsius and 640 degrees Celsius (depending on the particular alloy), well below the expected temperatures (about 1,000 degrees Celsius) in the vicinity of the fires. Aluminum is not expected to ignite at normal fire temperatures and there is no visual indication that the material flowing from the tower was burning."

Concluded is much different than suggested.
 
tmd2_1 said:
I never said it was from the South Tower before the fall. He doesn't say where it is from only that he obtained it. Here is the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezIU6ZxYU3A&NR=1

Also why do you NIST would have put that qualifier as to why the metal flowing was not Silver, if it should have been Silver anyway? Doesn't make any sense.
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Because Aluminum only glows silver at its lowest melting point. That color changes as the temperature rises.

Does it make sense to you that Jones could get down to GZ to recover metal in the midst of a chaotic collapse and that he (or anyone, for that matter) could know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they had recovered THAT same molten metal? It would have cooled down by then.

He is lying. Use your own logic.
 
tmd2_1 said:
Right from NIST

"NIST concluded that the source of the molten material was aluminum alloys from the aircraft, since these are known to melt between 475 degrees Celsius and 640 degrees Celsius (depending on the particular alloy), well below the expected temperatures (about 1,000 degrees Celsius) in the vicinity of the fires. Aluminum is not expected to ignite at normal fire temperatures and there is no visual indication that the material flowing from the tower was burning."

Concluded is much different than suggested.
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And this conclusion by NIST doesn't make sense to you?
 
tmd2_1 said:
Right from NIST

"NIST concluded that the source of the molten material was aluminum alloys from the aircraft, since these are known to melt between 475 degrees Celsius and 640 degrees Celsius (depending on the particular alloy), well below the expected temperatures (about 1,000 degrees Celsius) in the vicinity of the fires. Aluminum is not expected to ignite at normal fire temperatures and there is no visual indication that the material flowing from the tower was burning."

Concluded is much different than suggested.
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So you don't understand the difference.
 
tmd2_1 said:
http://stj911.org/jones/experiments_NIST_orange_glow_hypothesis.html
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Yes, now I see why you're having some cognitive dissonance here.

Steven Jones' thermite paper was refuted, to a man, by his own former physics department. You know that, right? His peers said it's ridiculous.

It should not be taken seriously.

So, knowing that, moving out of the light of anything done by Jones, does the conclusion reached by NIST about the molten aluminum make sense to you?
 
OCaptain said:
Because Aluminum only glows silver at its lowest melting point. That color changes as the temperature rises.
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To be more accurate, aluminum is glowing -- in the infrared. We can't see it until the temperature crosses the Draper Point, but it's emitting all the same.

In 2001 there were a few digital video cameras out there, which have inherently higher sensitivity to IR. Without provenience for the various clips we have no way of knowing what kind of camera took them.
 
OCaptain said:
Yes, now I see why you're having some cognitive dissonance here.

Steven Jones' thermite paper was refuted, to a man, by his own former physics department. You know that, right? His peers said it's ridiculous.

It should not be taken seriously.

So, knowing that, moving out of the light of anything done by Jones, does the conclusion reached by NIST about the molten aluminum make sense to you?
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Absolutely not. You see aluminum melted, you see them try to add material, doesn't change the color. Why don't you or anyone else do something to try and prove NIST's case?
 
I see what tmd does now. It's the standard concentrate on a few bits of evidence here and there, find one that appears to make the "official story" impossible, and declare victory. It allows him to ignore the entire rest of the body of evidence. All he has to to do is claim that bit of evidence is true no matter what and no matter what he gets to say he wins.

This is irrational conspiracy theorist 101 folks. You don't have to deal with them long to figure it out.
 
tmd2_1 said:
Absolutely not. You see aluminum melted, you see them try to add material, doesn't change the color. Why don't you or anyone else do something to try and prove NIST's case?
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Jones's experiments were ridiculed by HIS OWN PEERS!
 
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