Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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John Kercher had a legal representative present in the courtroom of the first trial, arguing in front of the court according to Mr Kercher's instructions. How on earth could Mr Kercher's views not have had any impact upon the first trial? Or did you think that Maresca was somehow arguing off his own bat, rather than as the representative of Mr Kercher?

Why do you suggest that it's an "emotive" interpretation? A lawyer is paid (either by his/her client, or by a third party such as the state) to represent the position of that client. In order to do this, the lawyer will have a number of meetings with his/her client, in order to discuss the position that the client wants the lawyer to take. It is unethical and improper for a lawyer to make arguments in a courtroom that (s)he does not reasonably assume reflect the opinions and wishes of his/her client. Mr Maresca's arguments in Massei's court necessarily reflected the opinions, wishes and position of his client, John Kercher (and other members of the Kercher family). I don't see what's so hard to understand about this, frankly.

I am suggesting they were swayed somewhat by Mr Maresca, who was acting on the instructions of Mr Kercher.


I disagree. There is no doubt in my mind that it is Maresca who is running the show and John Kercher who is being led. While I think it is wrong for John Kercher to try to publicly build a case for guilt against Amanda and Raffaele through his newspaper essays, I don't blame him. He fell under the spell of Mignini, Maresca and Massei at the most vulnerable, defenseless time in his life; resistance, as they say, would have been futile.

A lot of people say Amanda should have known better than to trust the cops -- well, what about John Kercher? He continues to trust the police and everyone on the side of the prosecution's case seemingly without question, and he is much older and presumably much wiser than Amanda. Too bad he didn't hire a British lawyer to protect him from the Perugian jackals.

As I have said before, I believe members of the Kercher family are suffering from a version of the Stockholm Syndrome: According to the psychoanalytic view of the syndrome, this tendency might be the result of employing the strategy evolved by newborn babies to form an emotional attachment to the nearest powerful adult in order to maximize the probability that this adult will enable—at the very least—the survival of the child, if not also prove to be a good parental figure. This syndrome is considered a prime example for the defense mechanism of identification.[8]
 
On the Floor

More on the Dumb and Dumber Trash a Crime Scene series:

WHAT is up with the constant posing things on the FLOOR. Where did they learn in their 4 month training program that the floor is as clean as a lab table? :cool:

I agree with all your observations here, particularly regarding this utterly bizarre practice - and one which is patently contrary to the most basic rules of forensic crime scene analysis - of placing items back onto the floor of the crime scene to tag and photograph them.

Was this a "practice" of theirs? They did it in the bra-clasp video, but are you implying there were other instances?


Here are at least 7 items that were placed on the floor to be photographed by the Forensic Police on Dec 18th. I would say 7 items makes this their standard procedure in collecting evidence. I wonder if the Missouri DNA manual would appove? :cool:


Blue Adidas jacket



Bra Clasp



MK's Sock



MK Shoes



Break-in rock



Amanda's socks



Amanda's socks 2
 
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I just found a relevant text, which says the following:



(But does this include slippage?)

and


It seems to me slippage was discussed during the questioning of the pathologist but I’m not sure at what phase...pre trial, preliminary hearing or actual first trial. The defense showed the autopsy video which confirmed proper ligature points were done to prevent any slippage. I’m sorry I do this stuff from memory only as I am not all that computer literate. Rose would be able to direct you to this testimony and if not her then Charlie Wilkes certainly.

John Kercher should not be writing about this case in the tabloid style he is accustomed to. Its clear he represents one side (guilty) whereas a true reporter would give a go to all possibilities. Kerchers lawyer jumped up in objection at opening the "double DNA knife" suggested first by the independent experts I believe. He objects to testing the "semen stain"...Why? whywhywhy???

I have the greatest sympathy for the Kercher family…I hope the truth may somewhat assuage their anguish…but I doubt anything can really do that though. Jailing innocent persons can never honor their missing loved one. It is a sad tragedy for three families.
 
I disagree. There is no doubt in my mind that it is Maresca who is running the show and John Kercher who is being led. While I think it is wrong for John Kercher to try to publicly build a case for guilt against Amanda and Raffaele through his newspaper essays, I don't blame him. He fell under the spell of Mignini, Maresca and Massei at the most vulnerable, defenseless time in his life; resistance, as they say, would have been futile.

A lot of people say Amanda should have known better than to trust the cops -- well, what about John Kercher? He continues to trust the police and everyone on the side of the prosecution's case seemingly without question, and he is much older and presumably much wiser than Amanda. Too bad he didn't hire a British lawyer to protect him from the Perugian jackals.

As I have said before, I believe members of the Kercher family are suffering from a version of the Stockholm Syndrome: According to the psychoanalytic view of the syndrome, this tendency might be the result of employing the strategy evolved by newborn babies to form an emotional attachment to the nearest powerful adult in order to maximize the probability that this adult will enable—at the very least—the survival of the child, if not also prove to be a good parental figure. This syndrome is considered a prime example for the defense mechanism of identification.[8]


Mary_H,

Very well said. Your comment has helped me to understand what the Kercher family has been going through much better. It makes me loathe this mendacious justice system even more.
 
It seems to me slippage was discussed during the questioning of the pathologist but I’m not sure at what phase...pre trial, preliminary hearing or actual first trial. The defense showed the autopsy video which confirmed proper ligature points were done to prevent any slippage.

Yes, that's discussed in the Sollecito appeal; but it's not enough to convince Rolf Nelson, who has raised the possibility of slippage occurring before the autopsy due to the killer(s) moving the body.
 
Rolf Nelson's latest reply concerning the stomach evidence contains some points worth considering:

Here's the full story on "slippage".

It didn't happen. Standard procedure, which was followed in this case according to those who have seen the video recording of the autopsy, is to tie off the stomach, duodenum and bowel so that material cannot slip around before examining them.

The way "slippage" meme got into the story is one of the least ethical bits of Massei's work of misinformation, in my view. Ronchi, a prosecution expert who had not seen the autopsy video stated that if Lalli (the person who did the autopsy) had not tied off Meredith's bowels properly that this could explain the lack of food in the duodenum, because that food might have been accidentally squeezed down the whole length of the small intesting to the far end.

Massei, who had seen the autopsy and knew that the bowels had indeed been tied off, adapted this statement by saying "Besides this, the alimentary remnants in the small intestine must also be considered, and thus, as hypothesised by Professor Umani Ronchi, it would be possible to think that these remnants could have been found in the duodenum either because of an imperfect apposition of the ligatures, or because of an apposition of the ligatures that took place with such manner and timing as to make it impossible to avoid a sliding of material from the duodenum to the small intestine. The fact [that the] duodenum [is] empty is not [necessarily] fully reliable".

As far as Massei is concerned as long as he can tell some fairy story such that "it would be possible to think" X, then he can assume X is true. It's an even bigger leap than his usual "it is possible, indeed probable" manoeuvre, going straight from mere conceivability to effective certainty.

Unless Meredith Kercher's last meal was Harry Houdini, significant amounts of food matter did not escape down her bowel through ligatures to hide at the far end. The hypothesis that the killer moved her body and by doing so made the food in her duodenum shoot five metres down a coiled elastic tube is also somewhat unlikely to say the least.

As far as Rolfe Nelson's ideas about the fact that "almost nobody except for Amanda Knox's defense has ever cared whether a duodenum was empty or not" that's probably because this is a very unusual and specific situation. It matters in this case only because an incompetent prosecution got the time of death terribly wrong, and the accused have an alibi for the real time of death, and the victim had such an unusually long t(lag) time that the time of death could be nailed down this way with some precision. It's a very unusual set of circumstances which we should not expect to be an everyday occurrence.

I also don't think very much of his "Vacant Duodenum Hypothesis" - a hypothesis like that owes the world some citations to back it up. As it is it looks strictly like wishful thinking to me. The idea that there is a minimum 10% chance that the duodenum will be empty at any given moment regardless of what you have been eating and when is not only bizarre but also presented without any supporting evidence whatsoever.
 
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The suggestion that DNA could get onto that little hook during the attack is completely implausible (particularly without leaving DNA anywhere else). I cannot see any way that an attacker would touch that part of the bra, or have reason to attempt to do so.

Proof of involvement requires corroboration of different items of evidence. The idea that a single item proves the participation of each of the 2 in the attack (the bra-clasp for Raff, the knife for Amanda) is one of the absurd aspects of this case. And no, I don't go along with the guilter claim that the other "evidence" against them means anything at all.

Neither do I and I agree that you - in this case - have to look at the single items used as evidence in a wider context. But I don't know if that is a satisfying scientific approach looking at DNA-evidence. The DNA tests I suppose should as an ideal be looked at in splendid isolation. Either there's DNA or there is not, if the tests are done properly. And that's where Stefanoni failed, according to the C-V report. She and the police made that impossible.

I think many people would argue that at least Sollecito's DNA on the bra clasp is a very strong indication that he touched it, despite the fact that his DNA isn't on the rest of the bra and that, sure, contamination could have occured, but Stefanoni's tests are not that unreliable - it's a matter of sloppiness, rather than being totally fundamentally unreliable, so most likely still his profile is on the clasp because he touched it? I have always considered the bra clasp as the most troubling obstactle for the defence to overcome. Now it looks like they've succeeded, but I guess it remains an obstacle for us arguing not only reasonable doubt, but also total innocense and exoneration.

Of course, there's also the question of other profiles on the clasp. This is an indication that contamination could have occured, but exactly how strong is that possibility compared to the possibility that Sollecito's profile is there because he touched it?

I don't know if it's possible to put this in percentage where one compare possibilities and likelihoods. If the judges after all will decide to accept the clasp as evidence (which I find very unlikely after the independent report), I guess that would be what they would try to do.
 
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bucketoftea,

When Mr. Maresca asked Andrew Seliber about Amanda's intimate behavior in Seattle that was at the very least sexist, possibly an example of misogyny. When an Italian court listed as one of the reasons why Ms. Knox should be in prison prior to her trial that she is a restless person who does not disdain multiple frequentations, that was certainly sexist and probably an example of misogyny. You defended Mr. Maresca as doing his job well. Please explain how while addressing these examples.

Context is all. I wouldn't regard it as sexist. You see, it was a violent sexual crime. Sex is on the table. "...does not disdain multiple frequentations" is about as neutral as it is possible to word it. And it appears to be true, as well.

Nope. No misogyny there as far as I can see.
 
Context is all. I wouldn't regard it as sexist. You see, it was a violent sexual crime. Sex is on the table. "...does not disdain multiple frequentations" is about as neutral as it is possible to word it. And it appears to be true, as well.

Nope. No misogyny there as far as I can see.

How could anyone believe Amanda's sex life had anything to do with a male assaulting Meredith the authorities had difficulty determining the extent of? By the time of the trial and Maresca's question it was clear there was no trace of Amanda at the scene, how could he possibly believe she could have been involved in anything sexual in that room?

Are you aware the lawyers and some of the translators elsewhere know the case made in Massei is a steaming pile of bilge and there's so many irregularities with the Massei court there's little if any chance it will pass muster with the Italian Supreme Court?
 
Context is all. I wouldn't regard it as sexist. You see, it was a violent sexual crime. Sex is on the table.

No, that does not follow.

If someone is accused of a drive-by shooting, the fact that they drive their car a lot is not grounds for holding them without trial.

The point is that "multiple frequentations" were used to infer bad moral character (which in turn was used to infer that a danger was posed). Whether you label this reasoning "sexist" or not, it is appallingly judgemental and frankly shocking in the context of a court ruling in an advanced Western nation.
 
No, that does not follow.

If someone is accused of a drive-by shooting, the fact that they drive their car a lot is not grounds for holding them without trial.

The point is that "multiple frequentations" were used to infer bad moral character (which in turn was used to infer that a danger was posed). Whether you label this reasoning "sexist" or not, it is appallingly judgemental and frankly shocking in the context of a court ruling in an advanced Western nation.

"She's a witch, burn her" is the implication.
 
No, that does not follow.

If someone is accused of a drive-by shooting, the fact that they drive their car a lot is not grounds for holding them without trial.

The point is that "multiple frequentations" were used to infer bad moral character (which in turn was used to infer that a danger was posed). Whether you label this reasoning "sexist" or not, it is appallingly judgemental and frankly shocking in the context of a court ruling in an advanced Western nation.

I disagree. Sexual history for the perpetrators of a sex crime seems fair enough to me. It's when it is used against a victim (ie by defence against rape victims) that it is appallingly sexxist and judgemental.

What does seem unfair is Knox taking all the heat. Sollecito could still address the court to defend Knox's alibi...
 
"She's a witch, burn her" is the implication.

What colourful language! Just because this hyperbole suits your rabble-rousing ends is no proof whatever that the jurors would jump to the same conclusion as you.

It's not implied in any case. You infer (sheesh)
 
Dave,

John Kercher writes:

To summarize, before John Kercher says it is not up to him to ascertain guilt he calls them guilty because:

1) There is an abundance of Sollecito's DNA on the bra clasp.
2) There are many reasons they are guilty besides the knife an bra clasp.
3) Knox and Sollecito changed their alibis 9 times.
4) There is a huge 400 page report that details why they are guilty.

It doesn't even make sense that he follows those points of guilt up with - "It is not up to me to ascertain guilt. I only want justice for Meredith."

IMO, Draca

Draca, your paraphrasing of John Kercher neglected the following important words,

"which was said to contain"

"The prosecution have stated"

"are said to have changed"

"as to why he and the jury"

He was not as definitive as you have written and if you read carefully he takes care to use words such as those I've quoted above to attribute the thoughts to others. I think that's an important distinction to make.
 
I disagree. Sexual history for the perpetrators of a sex crime seems fair enough to me. It's when it is used against a victim (ie by defence against rape victims) that it is appallingly sexxist and judgemental.

What does seem unfair is Knox taking all the heat. Sollecito could still address the court to defend Knox's alibi...

Can you show of any instances where a male accused of rape is asked about how many sexual partners they've had, and where 7 previous sexual partners taken to be indicative of a prediliction towards sexual violence?
And I'm talking numbers, as opposed to the nature of previous sexual encounters, such as violence or coercion being part of the nature of someone's sexual interaction.
I'd be very surprised to hear about any prosecutor in a case involving a male accused of a sexual crime bringing up number of sexual partners in order to show predisposition to sexual violence. If I'm wrong, then maybe the charge of misogyny is misplaced. If I'm right (that this never happens), then what we have is the implicit suggestion that with females (but not males), a 'high' number of sexual partners shows a prediliction for sexual violence. Which appears to be misogynistic.
 
The point is that "multiple frequentations" were used to infer bad moral character (which in turn was used to infer that a danger was posed). Whether you label this reasoning "sexist" or not, it is appallingly judgemental and frankly shocking in the context of a court ruling in an advanced Western nation.

I do not understand the italisized comment.

Don't prosecutors use this strategy all the time and is it not an accepted legal practice?

Just as a defence lawyer will try to discredit a witness who testifies against the defendant.
 
What colourful language! Just because this hyperbole suits your rabble-rousing ends is no proof whatever that the jurors would jump to the same conclusion as you.

It's not implied in any case. You infer (sheesh)

I guess it should read "let's have a trial, then we can burn her".
 
thanks for the explanation

Context is all. I wouldn't regard it as sexist. You see, it was a violent sexual crime. Sex is on the table. "...does not disdain multiple frequentations" is about as neutral as it is possible to word it. And it appears to be true, as well.

Nope. No misogyny there as far as I can see.
bucketoftea,

Rudi Guede had sexual knowledge of Meredith Kercher on the night of the murder, no one else. That's the context. The court's statement about Amanda's private life is highly misleading. It could be said of anyone who has had sex with more than one person. Amanda had two sexual partners in Italy, not surprising for someone of her age. Would anyone think twice if a man had two sexual partners over the course of a few months during his college years? That is sexist thinking. However, it is even more ridiculous to argue that the number of one's sexual partners is somehow indicative of criminality. If it were, Warren Beatty would have been a mass murderer many years ago. Thanks for explaining what is on your table; it is most instructive.
 
bucketoftea,

Rudi Guede had sexual knowledge of Meredith Kercher on the night of the murder, no one else. That's the context. The court's statement about Amanda's private life is highly misleading. It could be said of anyone who has had sex with more than one person. Amanda had two sexual partners in Italy, not surprising for someone of her age. Would anyone think twice if a man had two sexual partners over the course of a few months during his college years? That is sexist thinking. However, it is even more ridiculous to argue that the number of one's sexual partners is somehow indicative of criminality. If it were, Warren Beatty would have been a mass murderer many years ago. Thanks for explaining what is on your table; it is most instructive.

I think the sexual activities, such as they were, of all three (Amanda, Raffaele, Rudy) were brought up in some way during the trial. Whether A+B=C I cannot say, however, this is not an uncommon tactic in trials where there is a sexual component. As always, I would like to see the transcript of the questioning to place in context.
 
Really? Who was blowing the whistle on the prosecution case being fabricated and make of junk while Lindy Chamberlind was in jail for 4 years?

Come over the Tasman, who in the police or prosecution was blowing the whistle on the faked evidence against Arthur Allen Thomas while he was in jail wrongfully convicted of a double homicide?

Who was blowing the whistle and proving the level corruption in the Queensland police in the decade before Phil Dickie and then the Fizgerald Inquiry blew the whole can of worms open?

And answer came there none. Colour me unsurprised.
 
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