Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[LondonJohn]

Dude!
While London is burnin' and anarchy reigns, you're gonna take some of your own free time and bust out that library card or do some Googlin' just to help us truther's understand what happened to a young gal who had her life taken from her, her family and friends much too soon?

Too cool, LondonJohn, too cool!
L8, RW

Haha well as I said before, the pockets of violence/looting/arson are very isolated and limited in their scope (which is not to say they are not happening at all). The small mobs are focusing almost exclusively on commercial areas (mostly areas with shops and restaurants), and the centre of London has remained virtually trouble-free. There's copycat behaviour taking place in many other UK cities, but again this is largely confined to commercial areas. The nearest trouble to me was apparently a couple of shop windows broken in the Portobello Road (in Notting Hill), and one of the supermarkets near me closed at 6pm yesterday and today. Otherwise, I've been completely unaffected. It's only the media who are hyperbolising the story into something akin to "London at war". The Met police (the London police force) has so far charged some 250 people with criminal behaviour related to this trouble.

I hope the mob don't smash up my non-existent Ferrari though (I'm more of a fan of German sports cars, personally.....)

 

[LondonJohn]

Mr Kercher seems like an intelligent man, and yet he includes manga comics and ritualism as among the reasons for guilt. He is searching for justification and denying reality, in my opinion.

I find it intriguing too. Wasn't there a suggestion that he was writing a book related to Meredith's murder? I got near-crucified at what is now .org for daring to suggest that a book written by the victim's father might not provide the most balanced, disinterested account of the murder and the consequent criminal justice process for the neutral reader (although I readily agreed that such a book might provide a moving insight into personal grief). I can only presume that he has one draft of the book which vilifies Knox, Sollecito and Guede, and another draft which vilifies only Guede. And he'll push the button on the appropriate draft at some point after November.

 

[RoseMontague]

I like reading Justinian's comments because sometimes they make me think. Maybe he means something else entirely, all I can tell you is over the course of these threads a number of times he jarred me into realizing something. Not necessarily immediately, but eventually. When he broke out his engineering jargon and started talking about where all the lines intersect or when the curve never quite hits the line but at some point you can say 'close enough' illustrated or suggested something to me regarding ToD and the wealth of data assembled about a binary event which shouldn't produce polar opposite views with such passion at this juncture, as paradoxical as that might sound at first glance. Somebody is lying, somebody is guilty!

I try to put comments made in the ether into the context of the other ones they've made, and perhaps sometimes it is best to reserve judgment and extend the benefit of the doubt. People express themselves different ways with text in my experience.

Another way to put this might be:



The Mob Rules and justice is a game..



Reconsidered something, or perhaps a subtle joke in the context of the post and it's construction. I see he edited it, so more probably the first from that indication, however the context of the post seems to suggest the latter.



His opinion appears to be Amanda and Raffaele aren't dangerous, Rudy Guede is. However the conclusion doesn't seem to follow from the premise as the meat of the argument is missing. That's interesting, and could simply be a coincidence, but perhaps not, see above.




I agree with this, regardless of how he got there.

At any rate it was an interesting post, perhaps it was deeper than it appeared, perhaps I was just reading things into it that weren't intended. I don't know so I'll reserve judgment. Maybe it will come to me, maybe I'll forget it.

At any rate it suggests there isn't any real propaganda campaign going on from the Gogerty-Marriott/FOA PR supertanker captained by Bruce Fisher (TM). Otherwise you'd think there would have been an effort to smite the diseased creature.

There is room for all opinions here. I have also benefited from Justinian2's comments. His language style reminds me of reading Stranger In A Strange Land, so different our culture is today.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

The "sieving" phenomenon is known as interdigestive duodenogastric reflux (catchy, huh?!). It's a form of peristalsis known as retropulsion (or retroperistalsis). Here is an abstract to one of the first papers to examine it in any detail:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10912658

I'll dig for a decent citation regarding the minimal effect of meal size/composition/duration on T(lag). Again, I'm pretty certain that this issue is covered in the Hellmig et al paper, but in the mean time, I'll look for other citations.

They don't call me Mister Library Card for nothing.

I reviewed Hellmig et. al.'s "Gastric emptying time of fluids and solids in healthy subjects determined by 13C breath tests: influence of age, sex and body mass index" and it doesn't mention anything specific about stomach mechanics that I saw on a pass through, nor did I see it speculate about how shorter times might have been found in earlier studies.

It did say that there was some correlation between age, sex, BMI and t(lag) but that the relationship was not statistically significant in a 90-person study. It's not an unreasonable guess that there are real correlations, but they seem to be small enough that you'd need a really big study to nail them down precisely. As such they aren't going to get you from an average t(lag) of 80m to 240m.

That said the range on t(lag) was 29m-209m, so one person at the very far end of the distribution was close to the the three-and-a-half hour mark. (For the guilters in the audience, 209m still doesn't get you to the Massei time of death. If she started eating at 6pm-6:30pm then 209m doesn't even get you to 10:00pm).

 

[Diocletus]

I find it intriguing too. Wasn't there a suggestion that he was writing a book related to Meredith's murder? I got near-crucified at what is now .org for daring to suggest that a book written by the victim's father might not provide the most balanced, disinterested account of the murder and the consequent criminal justice process for the neutral reader (although I readily agreed that such a book might provide a moving insight into personal grief). I can only presume that he has one draft of the book which vilifies Knox, Sollecito and Guede, and another draft which vilifies only Guede. And he'll push the button on the appropriate draft at some point after November.

Well, if he is writing a book, his potential sales volume is going to take a dive when he has to pull the trigger on the Rudy-did-it version. Rudy as the murderer just doesn't make for a very interesting story. Maybe the Amanda-did-it-for-sex version can be stocked in the fiction row, where it belongs.

 

[LondonJohn]

They don't call me Mister Library Card for nothing.

I reviewed Hellmig et. al.'s "Gastric emptying time of fluids and solids in healthy subjects determined by 13C breath tests: influence of age, sex and body mass index" and it doesn't mention anything specific about stomach mechanics that I saw on a pass through, nor did I see it speculate about how shorter times might have been found in earlier studies.

It did say that there was some correlation between age, sex, BMI and t(lag) but that the relationship was not statistically significant in a 90-person study. It's not an unreasonable guess that there are real correlations, but they seem to be small enough that you'd need a really big study to nail them down precisely. As such they aren't going to get you from an average t(lag) of 80m to 240m.

That said the range on t(lag) was 29m-209m, so one person at the very far end of the distribution was close to the the three-and-a-half hour mark. (For the guilters in the audience, 209m still doesn't get you to the Massei time of death. If she started eating at 6pm-6:30pm then 209m doesn't even get you to 10:00pm).

Ah thanks! I remember that the frequency plot of T(lag) times in the study gave a very good match to a standard bell curve, which lends credibility to the results. The 209min outlier is actually further out than one might expect in a 90-person study (showing a median of 82min and 75th percentile of 102min, but it is entirely feasible to find outliers like this in a study of this size (in fact there's around a 5% probability that a 90-person study with the given median and 75th percentile would produce a datum point at 209 minutes or higher*).

It's still far, far more likely that Meredith died between 9.00pm and 9.30pm - corresponding to a T(lag) of around 150-180min. There is still a possibility (but a far lesser possibility) that death occurred between 9.30pm and 10.00pm - corresponding to T(lag) of around 180-210min. And by the time you get to 10.30pm (T(lag)=240min) it's practically impossible that Meredith was still alive. And it's altogether totally impossible that death occurred at 11.45pm (T(lag)=315min), as per Massei's "reasoning".

* 209min is at around the 99.95% point on the curve - implying that around one person in 2,000 has T(lag) of this time or higher. So in a 90-person study, one might expect to see a T(lag) of 209min or more around 5% of the time (although the actual statistical calculation is more complicated than that, but it's a reasonably-accurate estimation).

 

[LondonJohn]

Well, if he is writing a book, his potential sales volume is going to take a dive when he has to pull the trigger on the Rudy-did-it version. Rudy as the murderer just doesn't make for a very interesting story. Maybe the Amanda-did-it-for-sex version can be stocked in the fiction row, where it belongs.

One would hope that money would not be Mr Kercher's motivation for writing such a book.......

 

[RandyN]

Well LK snook1 gave you a huge hint about stint's JREF handle when he referred to stint as a retired pilot.

Which is also my excuse for the mistake I made about the Fly By Night person. All the pilots and flying business...

It is in fact Fly By Night and not Stint who is the Univ Of Wash employee who hates AK and posts hateful things about her from the University computers...or maybe not.

And no this Fly never claimed to be a professor of AK. Actual professors seem to speak highly of AK and indeed some have even visited her in Italy.

 

[Draca]

What is the status of Giuliano Mignini's Conviction?

Does anyone have a timeline for his trial and appeals?

 

[RandyN]

I just looked at the "True Justice For Meredith Kercher" site apparently produced by Meredith Kercher's father, John Kercher linked to above.

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php...irl_meredith_was_funny_clever_and_extremely_/



I have quoted a small section from the site above. Has anybody posted a response to the claims of this site? Having read through some of this thread I realize that a lot of his claims are contested or are outright incorrect, but I hope that a specific response to this site exists.

As stated Mr. Kercher has nothing to do with the site TJMK. In rereading his article I am moved at his certain pain. He loved his little girl and nothing will ever assuage his anguish at her death. The fact that she died as the result of a brutal murder certainly makes things worse if that is indeed possible.

That said, his article as related to AK and RS is completely inaccurate. One could forgive a certain amount of grief laden hope and hate. Mr. Kercher has had to suffer the loss of his beautiful daughter and he has had to suffer the lies told to him by a Italian prosecutor, Mignini and a weasel lawyer Marassca...he is so fully invested in the “case for guilt” against three that he is blinded by the developing truth that was always a possibility from the beginning...that a lone killer murdered his daughter during an interrupted burglary.

The indication of that lone killer, Rudy Guede is proven at each step in this case now as evidence used to convict all three is methodically disproved step by step. The eyewitness turned out to be a homeless heroin addict trying to make a deal with a convicted prosecutor to save himself from jail time. This prosecutor Mignini is still facing jail time of his own if the Supreme Court upholds his conviction and so he needed this huge case to succeed to help save himself. The luminol footprints tested negative for blood and most in fact negative for even DNA. They were red herrings tossed out by a prosecution that built its case on a suspect centered investigation.

For the first time in this trial independent experts examined the DNA evidence against AK and RS. They wrote a 145 page conclusion that in summary debunks anything related to these two defendants. They find contamination, collection error and outright corruption and planting all likely possibilities for the only pieces (two) that could link the defendants to the crime. In short there is no DNA evidence.

I can refute every point you find on TJMK or any other site but that has most likely been covered here and at other sites more often and far better than I could ever do...I recommend Rose as the go to girl (guy) ;-) for any details along with citations cataloged and included.

Fact is Mr. Kercher has allowed his grief to blind him to the truth. His is by profession a tabloid writer and perhaps suffers from failing to be forced to look objectively at the facts of any story. I feel great sorrow for the man and his family...but he needs to open his eyes to the truth now and that in itself my help him to heal somewhat. I hope so anyway.

 

[RandyN]

What is the status of Giuliano Mignini's Conviction?

Does anyone have a timeline for his trial and appeals?

Mr Mignini's trial and first appeal are over. He awaits his appeal to the Supreme Court. I dont have that information...I will try to find that out.

 

[katy_did]

Sounds like a plan.

Excellent! Now we just have to hope Hellmann writes more like Bongiorno than he does Massei.

 

[Draca]

Mr Mignini's trial and first appeal are over. He awaits his appeal to the Supreme Court. I dont have that information...I will try to find that out.

Thanks, any info and links would be appreciated.

 

[RoseMontague]

Mr Mignini's trial and first appeal are over. He awaits his appeal to the Supreme Court. I dont have that information...I will try to find that out.

I had heard he might get Hellmann for his appeal. Just kidding. I have not seen an update on this in a long time.

 

[RoseMontague]

This is a post from an Italian blog quoting Mignini on his upcoming appeal (the post is dated May 2011)

I randomly stumbled on your website and I read the article about me and I feel obliged to make a few clarifications:
Vi è una parte della sentenza di cui nessuno ha parlato ed è quella con la quale io e il Dr. Giuttari siamo stati assolti dalle imputazioni relative alle indagini cosiddette “parallele” perché i fatti non sussistono, con la formula più piena che si possa immaginare. There is a part of the sentence that no one has spoken and is the one with which I and Dr. Giuttari we were acquitted from charges relating to investigations so-called "parallel" because the facts do not exist, with the formula fuller than you could imagine . E questa sentenza assolutoria è definitiva perché né la Procura di Firenze né la Procura Generale di Firenze l'hanno appellata. And this acquittal is final because neither the prosecutor nor the Attorney General of Florence in Florence have appealed.
E' rimasta una condanna per abusi minori avverso la quale abbiamo interposto appello che si celebrerà il prossimo 22 novembre. It 'been a conviction for child abuse against which we have appealed to be held on 22 November.
Nell'appello ho eccepito l'incompetenza funzionale della sede giudiziaria fiorentina a trattare il caso perché in esso sono coinvolti due magistrati della Procura di Firenze tra cui l'ex capo della stessa. The appeal I pleaded incompetence functional Florentine court to hear the case because it involved two judges of the prosecutor of Florence including the former head of the same. E questo lo vieta l'art. This Article forbids it. 11 cpp Vi sono poi quattro nullità per difetto di contestazione, cioè il Tribunale ci ha condannato, fuoriuscendo dai “binari” della contestazione. There are also four 11 cpp void for lack of a dispute, that the Court has condemned, escaping from the "tracks" of the dispute.
Quanto al merito, mi si contesta di avere svolto intercettazioni telefoniche, tutte autorizzate, ma che, secondo il Tribunale (che non conosce minimamente l'indagine sul caso Narducci) non erano pertinenti a tale indagine e invece, per me, lo erano. On the merits, I will deny having done wiretaps, all authorized, but that, in the Court (who does not know any way the investigation of the case Narducci) were not relevant to this investigation and instead, for me, they were.
Siamo accusati di avere condizionato giornalisti e funzionari di Polizia con intercettazioni e altri atti di indagine….. We are accused of having influenced journalists and police officers of wiretaps and other investigative measures ... .. segreti. secrets. Come si fa condizionare qualcuno con atti di cui il “condizionando” ignora l'esistenza me lo dovranno spiegare. How do you influence someone acts of which the "conditioning" ignores the existence will have to explain it to me.
Questo è quello che ritengo di puntualizzare. This is what I think to point out. Non aggiungo altro in questa sede. Say no more here.
Grazie. Thank you.
Giuliano Mignini Giuliano Mignini

http://translate.google.com/transla...0QFjAG&usg=AFQjCNHxwW8AU9LMNd7SF-0CIBYFBYM31w

 

[RoseMontague]

Interesting how he is claiming two judges heard his case that should have recused themselves. He is so screwed.

 

[Draca]

This is a post from an Italian blog quoting Mignini on his upcoming appeal (the post is dated May 2011)


http://translate.google.com/transla...0QFjAG&usg=AFQjCNHxwW8AU9LMNd7SF-0CIBYFBYM31w

The Nov 22nd appeal is his first appeal or the SC appeal? I thought it was the first one?

Interesting how he is claiming two judges heard his case that should have recused themselves. He is so screwed.

Hope so.

 

[RoseMontague]

The Nov 22nd appeal is his first appeal or the SC appeal? I thought it was the first one?



Hope so.

I think 1st appeal, unless I missed something.

 

[Kaosium]

I just looked at the "True Justice For Meredith Kercher" site apparently produced by Meredith Kercher's father, John Kercher linked to above.

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php...irl_meredith_was_funny_clever_and_extremely_/



I have quoted a small section from the site above. Has anybody posted a response to the claims of this site? Having read through some of this thread I realize that a lot of his claims are contested or are outright incorrect, but I hope that a specific response to this site exists.

I can't recall if the Sunday Times article was specifically addressed point-by-point at the time of its posting but I'll offer some input:

It is quite revealing, showing that — although Knox’s DNA and Meredith’s genetic material were found mixed together in several locations in the bathroom — much more than the DNA evidence was responsible for the decision to convict. For example:

More than the DNA evidence was introduced as 'evidence' at the trial, this is true. It was considered the most important evidence by the prosecutor however.

* Sollecito claimed to have been working at his computer on the evening of the murder, but computer records show that it was inactive. Both Sollecito’s and Knox’s mobile phones were switched off that night.

It is interesting to me that someone would call the computer record being overwritten (or destroyed) in police custody as showing it was 'inactive.' At the trial they claimed the last record was ~9:00 however the appeal noted they missed the starting of the Naruto file at ~9:28, and since filed an addendum to the appeal claiming the screensaver files or the keyboard light indicate human computer activity throughout the night with the longest the screensaver was activated being six minutes.

Amanda turned off her phone after finding out she didn't have to work to both save her battery, and so he couldn't call back and change his mind as she decided to enjoy the night with Raffaele. Raffaele's phone simply didn't receive a call or make one, there was nothing to suggest it was ever turned off.

* A witness saw the couple several times in the vicinity of the cottage on the night of the killing, although they said they were at Sollecito’s home.

This would be Curotolo who was summoned for a repeat performance and laughed out of court after this was printed. He was transported from jail where he had been incarcerated due to heroin peddling charges from circa 2003 which is interesting as his testimony at Amanda and Raffaele's trial in 2009 was the third murder trial he testified at. His cell is a step up in some regards to his park bench where he lived the decade or so previous. His testimony insisted upon seeing disco buses and masks which would have been the night previous. Monica Napoleoni, head of homicide for the Squadra Mobile didn't show up to attempt to rehabilitate the witness.

Their alibis changed nine times, with Sollecito saying that he could not remember whether Knox was with him all evening. They even hinted at putting the blame on each other.

Their alibi was the same before and after their little adventure in the backroom of the police station in the middle of the night. When presented before Mattenini Raffaele withdrew his statement that he gave when stoned the night of the fifth, though he stated he couldn't be sure if Amanda left for a little while that night.

I have no idea how you get to their alibi changing nine times. If you pretend that each of Amanda's statements and her note is an 'alibi change' from the last that would be three. Raffaele's gave a statement that suggested he was talking about Halloween as it had them splitting up at the town square and him going home, then before Matteini he recanted it making it two. That's five, though with further nitpicking through the diaries I suppose someone must have found more. It has a rather merciless machine-like quality to it in my opinion.


In their diaries after being arrested, both wondered for a little while if the other might have been involved though both came to the conclusion the other wasn't. That was awfully clever of them to pre-plan if they were actually murderers.

Apart from Meredith, only Knox and two other flatmates, who were away at the time, had keys to the cottage.

I think the murderer broke in through the window. I find it awfully odd that the police didn't change their theory of the crime after finding absolutely no evidence of Amanda, Raffaele and Patrick in the murder room, but plenty of Rudy's traces, considering he was a burglar and all.

* Sollecito’s naked footprint was found on a bathmat in the cottage; and Knox’s footprints were found outside Meredith’s room, in the passageway and in another room, where police believe a break-in was staged. (These footprints were revealed with luminol, a chemical used by forensic investigators to detect traces of blood at crime scenes, as it glows blue in reaction with the iron in haemoglobin. It can show bloody footprints even after attempts to clean them away.) nAs for the “break-in”, the police immediately noticed that glass from a broken window was on top of clothes supposedly scattered by an intruder. The glass would have been under the clothes if the window had been broken before the room was ransacked. No valuables were taken, and a real burglar would have found far easier access to the house without breaking a window.

Have you seen the bathmat print? I think it looks more like Rudy's but I sure as hell wouldn't convict him on that alone, I don't think it conclusive. You can view some of the footprint information here and disregard the analysis if you like, though I found it compelling. I also like how some of those 'footprints' look not unlike my avatar and find it curious they could be positively identified as anyone especially considering they only had samples from Raffaele and Amanda.

They tested negative for blood, and could have been made at any time. They were discovered on the return to the crime scene 46 days afterward when they 'found' the bra clasp. Personally I think they just luminoled the whole damn floor and threw it at them both as 'bloody footprints' despite the negative TMB and DNA tests they tried to hide in court, perhaps as they 'didn't need them to make their case.' I suppose that's one way of seeing it!

I don't think it makes a damn bit of difference if the glass was on top of or beneath the clothes. I find the insistence it is crucial evidence curious, especially as it came after an un-taped witness statement after the fact. Perhaps Filomena kept her dirty clothes there sometimes? Perhaps someone kicked glass on top of them at anytime, either during the break-in, during the discovery, or when the Polizia Scientifica were clod-hopping through the scene? It sure would have been nice if they'd taken a picture of this crucial evidence.

* Sollecito told the police that nothing had been taken from the room supposedly broken into. But how would he know? It was used by an Italian girl, not present on the night of the killing, who had not yet checked it out for herself.

My guess is he saw valuable stuff out which hadn't been taken. I find the idea that anyone would stage a crime scene, not take much of anything, and then say so when he called police even more strange.

* Knox described the position of Meredith’s body and how she had died, although she had not been able to see into Meredith’s room when the door was broken down by the police.

She also described it wrong, saying something like she was stuffed in the closet with a foot out. I wonder if she heard people who saw it talking about it and heard it wrong with her nascent Italian.

There are many more factors, almost 20 in all, among them the suspicion that there may have been something ritualistic about Meredith’s death. The prosecutor was criticised for mentioning this, but she was killed on the eve of the Day of the Dead, November 2. Sollecito was said to have Japanese manga comics that described the rape and killing of female vampires. Meredith had been dressed as a vampire to celebrate Hallowe’en.

Isn't it interesting the kind of 'evidence' you have to rely on when you can't find anything real?

 

[Kaosium]

This is a post from an Italian blog quoting Mignini on his upcoming appeal (the post is dated May 2011)

I randomly stumbled on your website and I read the article about me and I feel obliged to make a few clarifications:

There is a part of the sentence that no one has spoken and is the one with which I and Dr. Giuttari we were acquitted from charges relating to investigations so-called "parallel" because the facts do not exist, with the formula fuller than you could imagine. And this acquittal is final because neither the prosecutor nor the Attorney General of Florence in Florence have appealed.

It 'been a conviction for child abuse against which we have appealed to be held on 22 November.

The appeal I pleaded incompetence functional Florentine court to hear the case because it involved two judges of the prosecutor of Florence including the former head of the same. There are also four 11 cpp void for lack of a dispute, that the Court has condemned, escaping from the "tracks" of the dispute.

On the merits, I will deny having done wiretaps, all authorized, but that, in the Court (who does not know any way the investigation of the case Narducci) were not relevant to this investigation and instead, for me, they were.

We are accused of having influenced journalists and police officers of wiretaps and other investigative measures ... .. secrets. How do you influence someone acts of which the "conditioning" ignores the existence will have to explain it to me.

This is what I think to point out. Say no more here.
Thank you.

I formatted this and I still don't get it. That 'child-abuse' thing is new to me, that's a translation error I'm guessing?

He doesn't seem to think there's anything wrong about all the secret investigations he started on police and journalists in violation of the law. What a unique way to look at it.

I find it hilarious that he goes to court November 22nd for some reason.

'Back and to the left...back and to the left....'