Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Skwinty]

It doesn't take a legal genius to see that those seeking damages have a strong vested interest in seeing those on trial criminally convicted - regardless of whether such a criminal conviction is warranted or justifiable - since a criminal conviction will guarantee the award of civil damages.

Should the above happen, what would follow?

A second appeal, government intervention or all out public outcry?

What could be done to counteract the situation?

 

[Justinian2]

My viewpoint is that the governments and law of this entire civilization is bad to the bone.

[deleted several sentences to comply with moderator rules]

Conclusion: Amanda and Raffaele shouldn't be punished even if guilty (restraint is ideal for the guilty and dangerous - like Guede).

Perugia's 'justice' is bad to the third power (at least)

I mean, Amanda should be out of jail and rewarded while the people that put her in jail should be restrained.

 

[komponisto]

Should the above happen, what would follow?

A second appeal, government intervention or all out public outcry?

What could be done to counteract the situation?

I'm not sure I understand your question exactly (it's unclear what "the above" specifically refers to within LJ's post), but if the convictions of Knox and Sollecito were to be reaffirmed at this stage (which would presumably entail the upholding the civil judgements as well), there would be a second appeal to the Corte di Cassazione, often referred to here as the "Supreme Court".

This second appeal, which would be a quick one-day affair in Rome without the defendants present (only their lawyers), would bear more resemblance to the notion of "appeal" familiar in Anglo-Saxon countries, involving only questions of law and not questions of fact.

After that, my understanding is that there could theoretically be a further appeal to some kind of pan-European international court, but I assume that that court would have to decide to hear the case (rather than it being automatic as are the appeals within Italy), and there would have to be some kind of human rights violation alleged (rather than just "the case was decided incorrectly").

 

[komponisto]

I will try to get decent cites for the "sieving" phenomenon, together with some indication when it was first discovered. But I think it's a highly reasonable suggestion that what the earlier studies were measuring was the commencement of this "sieving" process, rather than the ultimate transition of food from the stomach to the duodenum (and beyond)

So it isn't directly mentioned in the Hellmig et al paper, then?

What I'd like to rule out is the possibility that changes in meal size and/or composition (and/or other circumstances of consumption) could consistently produce multiplicative changes in the lag time (e.g. an x% increase in starch content causes a y% increase in lag time). This is important because it's what Rolf Nelson hypothesizes: if a tiny medically-optimized test meal has a lag time of 20 minutes, and a "more normal" meal increases this by a factor of 3 to 4 to yielding 70-80 minutes, then who's to say a "yet more normal still" meal wouldn't increase it by another similar factor, yielding the desired 240+ minutes?

 

[christianahannah]

Did they actually attend the Rudy Guede proceedings, abbreviated as they were?

Yes, but I am not certain if they attended all. They were in court September 16, 2008 and in court for the final hearing where Rudy was pronounced guilty on October 28, 2008. I am not certain how many hearings there were between these times.

While Rudy was being tried in a fast-track trial, this was combined as a hearing for Amanda and Raffaele before Micheli to decide if there was enough evidence to proceed to trial. I know some, if not all, of the hearings were closed to the media and public but I do not know if this applied to family members.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

European Convention

After that, my understanding is that there could theoretically be a further appeal to some kind of pan-European international court, but I assume that that court would have to decide to hear the case (rather than it being automatic as are the appeals within Italy), and there would have to be some kind of human rights violation alleged (rather than just "the case was decided incorrectly").

komponisto,

It has been argued that there was indeed a human rights violation with respect to the pretrial incarceration. Mr. Sayagh wrote, "The terms of Amanda’s arrest are beyond the European Convention’s reasonable standard for detention when investigating an individual’s possible involvement in a crime." I would argue that the principle of discovery was trampled upon in the trial of the first instance, but I do not know whether this falls under the purview of the EHRC, nor do I know how explicit are the guarantees concerning discovery in Italian law.
ETA
It seems to me that the question of discovery and a fair trial has arisen before and that possibly LondonJohn answered it.

 

[Rolfe]

My viewpoint is that the governments and law of this entire civilization is bad to the bone.

[deleted several sentences to comply with moderator rules]

Conclusion: Amanda and Raffaele shouldn't be punished even if guilty (restraint is ideal for the guilty and dangerous - like Guede).

Perugia's 'justice' is bad to the third power (at least)

I mean, Amanda should be out of jail and rewarded while the people that put her in jail should be restrained.

That's exactly the sort of post that causes this thread to be held in such high esteem....

Rolfe.

ETA: I'm very sorry, I hadn't spotted the thread was on to a new page for me. I was referring to Justinian's post idolising Amanda and suggesting she should not be punished even if guilty, but should be released and rewarded. I was certainly not referring to Halides' post, which I haven't even read yet.

 

[LondonJohn]

So it isn't directly mentioned in the Hellmig et al paper, then?

What I'd like to rule out is the possibility that changes in meal size and/or composition (and/or other circumstances of consumption) could consistently produce multiplicative changes in the lag time (e.g. an x% increase in starch content causes a y% increase in lag time). This is important because it's what Rolf Nelson hypothesizes: if a tiny medically-optimized test meal has a lag time of 20 minutes, and a "more normal" meal increases this by a factor of 3 to 4 to yielding 70-80 minutes, then who's to say a "yet more normal still" meal wouldn't increase it by another similar factor, yielding the desired 240+ minutes?

I have a feeling that it is discussed in the Hellmig et al paper. I don't have access to the full paper, as I don't hold subscriptions to medical journals! I read the paper on the office computer of my gastroenterologist - but couldn't save it or print it. Next time I have an appointment, I'll check! But I am certain that I've read respectable scientific/medical literature on the "sieving" issue - I just can't remember whether I read it in that paper or somewhere else.

Regarding your second point, no: the research evidence suggests that if the meal consists of mixed food groups (fats, proteins, simple/complex carbs, fibre) T(lag) does not alter significantly. T(1/2) and total emptying time do, of course, vary significantly depending on a) the size of the meal, b) its composition, and c) the time over which it is consumed. But these factors do not significantly affect the time at which a meal starts to transit to the duodenum.

The reasonably large variance of T(lag) relative to the median is simply a factor of normal human variability. In this respect, it's extremely analogous to adult height. Some people are taller than others, with a clear average and a clear bell curve of height distribution either side of that average*. I doubt anyone's ever studied inherited gastric function characteristics, but it might well be that if your mother or father have long T(lag) times, you too will inherit a long T(lag) time - just as with height.

So Rolf is wrong to suggest that T(lag) varies dramatically depending on size and composition of the meal. As I've said, I'm pretty sure that these 20-odd-minute "lag times" are not measuring lag time under the definition we require (I think these measurements are of the time taken for food to first enter the duodenum as part of the "sieving" process - but the food then returns back into the stomach). I'm pretty sure that the T(lag) distribution measured in the Hellmig et al study is the one that is relevant to Meredith's ToD - i.e. the time at which food matter starts its actual transition out of the stomach to the remainder of the intestines. And I am fairly confident that the Hellmig et al paper makes reference to the difference. In addition, it's worth noting that the Hellmig et al paper was a 90-person study (much larger than the other studies), and that it was specifically aimed at establishing reference times (and time distributions) for T(lag) and T(1/2).

* Excluding people with genetic or medical abnormalities - which produce artificial spikes at the "giant" and "dwarf" ends of the height spectrum.

 

[komponisto]

I have a feeling that it is discussed in the Hellmig et al paper. I don't have access to the full paper, as I don't hold subscriptions to medical journals!

Bummer; sorry, I was under the impression that you did have access to the paper somehow. Of course, now I know the explanation:

I read the paper on the office computer of my gastroenterologist - but couldn't save it or print it.

Anyway:

Regarding your second point, no: the research evidence suggests that if the meal consists of mixed food groups (fats, proteins, simple/complex carbs, fibre) T(lag) does not alter significantly. T(1/2) and total emptying time do, of course, vary significantly depending on a) the size of the meal, b) its composition, and c) the time over which it is consumed. But these factors do not significantly affect the time at which a meal starts to transit to the duodenum.

If you know where to find a citation for this, that would be positively golden. (I haven't found one myself yet.) Something describing the sieving phenomenon would also be useful, naturally.

In addition, it's worth noting that the Hellmig et al paper was a 90-person study (much larger than the other studies), and that it was specifically aimed at establishing reference times (and time distributions) for T(lag) and T(1/2).

That is indeed worth noting -- as is the fact that the Hellmig et al paper is so recent compared to the others.

 

[davefoc]

I just looked at the "True Justice For Meredith Kercher" site apparently produced by Meredith Kercher's father, John Kercher linked to above.

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php...irl_meredith_was_funny_clever_and_extremely_/

It is quite revealing, showing that — although Knox’s DNA and Meredith’s genetic material were found mixed together in several locations in the bathroom — much more than the DNA evidence was responsible for the decision to convict. For example:

• Sollecito claimed to have been working at his computer on the evening of the murder, but computer records show that it was inactive. Both Sollecito’s and Knox’s mobile phones were switched off that night.
• A witness saw the couple several times in the vicinity of the cottage on the night of the killing, although they said they were at Sollecito’s home. Their alibis changed nine times, with Sollecito saying that he could not remember whether Knox was with him all evening. They even hinted at putting the blame on each other. Apart from Meredith, only Knox and two other flatmates, who were away at the time, had keys to the cottage.
• Sollecito’s naked footprint was found on a bathmat in the cottage; and Knox’s footprints were found outside Meredith’s room, in the passageway and in another room, where police believe a break-in was staged. (These footprints were revealed with luminol, a chemical used by forensic investigators to detect traces of blood at crime scenes, as it glows blue in reaction with the iron in haemoglobin. It can show bloody footprints even after attempts to clean them away.) nAs for the “break-in”, the police immediately noticed that glass from a broken window was on top of clothes supposedly scattered by an intruder. The glass would have been under the clothes if the window had been broken before the room was ransacked. No valuables were taken, and a real burglar would have found far easier access to the house without breaking a window.
• Sollecito told the police that nothing had been taken from the room supposedly broken into. But how would he know? It was used by an Italian girl, not present on the night of the killing, who had not yet checked it out for herself.
• Knox described the position of Meredith’s body and how she had died, although she had not been able to see into Meredith’s room when the door was broken down by the police.

There are many more factors, almost 20 in all, among them the suspicion that there may have been something ritualistic about Meredith’s death. The prosecutor was criticised for mentioning this, but she was killed on the eve of the Day of the Dead, November 2. Sollecito was said to have Japanese manga comics that described the rape and killing of female vampires. Meredith had been dressed as a vampire to celebrate Hallowe’en.

I have quoted a small section from the site above. Has anybody posted a response to the claims of this site? Having read through some of this thread I realize that a lot of his claims are contested or are outright incorrect, but I hope that a specific response to this site exists.

 

[Skwinty]

It has been argued that there was indeed a human rights violation with respect to the pretrial incarceration.

Thanks for the link. I have read all 48 pages and I now have a better understanding of the issue.

 

[komponisto]

I just looked at the "True Justice For Meredith Kercher" site apparently produced by Meredith Kercher's father, John Kercher linked to above.

TJMK is not run by Meredith's family, but rather by a man named Peter Quennell, who has no connection to them.

I have quoted a small section from the site above. Has anybody posted a response to the claims of this site? Having read through some of this thread I realize that a lot of his claims are contested or are outright incorrect, but I hope that a specific response to this site exists.

See Injustice in Perugia and Friends of Amanda.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

long hours at low pay

I just looked at the "True Justice For Meredith Kercher" site apparently produced by Meredith Kercher's father, John Kercher linked to above.

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php...irl_meredith_was_funny_clever_and_extremely_/



I have quoted a small section from the site above. Has anybody posted a response to the claims of this site? Having read through some of this thread I realize that a lot of his claims are contested or are outright incorrect, but I hope that a specific response to this site exists.

davefoc,

From time to time some put out responses to these lists, but it would be a full-time job to respond to all of them. The one I provided in this link was a collaborative effort. If you wanted to focus on one or two, there might be someone here who could offer a rebuttal.

 

[LondonJohn]

If you know where to find a citation for this, that would be positively golden. (I haven't found one myself yet.) Something describing the sieving phenomenon would also be useful, naturally.


That is indeed worth noting -- as is the fact that the Hellmig et al paper is so recent compared to the others.

The "sieving" phenomenon is known as interdigestive duodenogastric reflux (catchy, huh?!). It's a form of peristalsis known as retropulsion (or retroperistalsis). Here is an abstract to one of the first papers to examine it in any detail:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10912658

I'll dig for a decent citation regarding the minimal effect of meal size/composition/duration on T(lag). Again, I'm pretty certain that this issue is covered in the Hellmig et al paper, but in the mean time, I'll look for other citations.

 

[RWVBWL]

The "sieving" phenomenon is known as interdigestive duodenogastric reflux (catchy, huh?!). It's a form of peristalsis known as retropulsion (or retroperistalsis). Here is an abstract to one of the first papers to examine it in any detail:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10912658

I'll dig for a decent citation regarding the minimal effect of meal size/composition/duration on T(lag). Again, I'm pretty certain that this issue is covered in the Hellmig et al paper, but in the mean time, I'll look for other citations.

Dude!
While London is burnin' and anarchy reigns, you're gonna take some of your own free time and bust out that library card or do some Googlin' just to help us truther's understand what happened to a young gal who had her life taken from her, her family and friends much too soon?

Too cool, LondonJohn, too cool!
L8, RW

 

[Diocletus]

While Rudy was being tried in a fast-track trial, this was combined as a hearing for Amanda and Raffaele before Micheli to decide if there was enough evidence to proceed to trial. I know some, if not all, of the hearings were closed to the media and public but I do not know if this applied to family members.

That's a rather odd little procedure. In effect, they combined one alleged co-conspirator's expedited trial with the other alleged co-conspirators' probable cause hearing. Hmm.

 

[RoseMontague]

I just looked at the "True Justice For Meredith Kercher" site apparently produced by Meredith Kercher's father, John Kercher linked to above.

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php...irl_meredith_was_funny_clever_and_extremely_/



I have quoted a small section from the site above. Has anybody posted a response to the claims of this site? Having read through some of this thread I realize that a lot of his claims are contested or are outright incorrect, but I hope that a specific response to this site exists.

Yes, I have disputed Mr. Kercher's list of evidence on several occasions, including here. His list reads like a list prepared by The Machine.

 

[Diocletus]

Yes, I have disputed Mr. Kercher's list of evidence on several occasions, including here. His list reads like a list prepared by The Machine.

It's kind of incredible, really. What he lists is debunked, wrong, or not incriminating.

 

[RoseMontague]

It's kind of incredible, really. What he lists is debunked, wrong, or not incriminating.

Mr Kercher seems like an intelligent man, and yet he includes manga comics and ritualism as among the reasons for guilt. He is searching for justification and denying reality, in my opinion.

 

[Kaosium]

My viewpoint is that the governments and law of this entire civilization is bad to the bone.

[deleted several sentences to comply with moderator rules]

Conclusion: Amanda and Raffaele shouldn't be punished even if guilty (restraint is ideal for the guilty and dangerous - like Guede).

Perugia's 'justice' is bad to the third power (at least)

I mean, Amanda should be out of jail and rewarded while the people that put her in jail should be restrained.

That's exactly the sort of post that causes this thread to be held in such high esteem....

Rolfe.

I like reading Justinian's comments because sometimes they make me think. Maybe he means something else entirely, all I can tell you is over the course of these threads a number of times he jarred me into realizing something. Not necessarily immediately, but eventually. When he broke out his engineering jargon and started talking about where all the lines intersect or when the curve never quite hits the line but at some point you can say 'close enough' illustrated or suggested something to me regarding ToD and the wealth of data assembled about a binary event which shouldn't produce polar opposite views with such passion at this juncture, as paradoxical as that might sound at first glance. Somebody is lying, somebody is guilty!

I try to put comments made in the ether into the context of the other ones they've made, and perhaps sometimes it is best to reserve judgment and extend the benefit of the doubt. People express themselves different ways with text in my experience.

Another way to put this might be:

My viewpoint is that the governments and law of this entire civilization is bad to the bone.

The Mob Rules and justice is a game..

[deleted several sentences to comply with moderator rules]

Reconsidered something, or perhaps a subtle joke in the context of the post and it's construction. I see he edited it, so more probably the first from that indication, however the context of the post seems to suggest the latter.

Conclusion: Amanda and Raffaele shouldn't be punished even if guilty (restraint is ideal for the guilty and dangerous - like Guede).

His opinion appears to be Amanda and Raffaele aren't dangerous, Rudy Guede is. However the conclusion doesn't seem to follow from the premise as the meat of the argument is missing. That's interesting, and could simply be a coincidence, but perhaps not, see above.

Perugia's 'justice' is bad to the third power (at least)

I mean, Amanda should be out of jail and rewarded while the people that put her in jail should be restrained.

I agree with this, regardless of how he got there.

At any rate it was an interesting post, perhaps it was deeper than it appeared, perhaps I was just reading things into it that weren't intended. I don't know so I'll reserve judgment. Maybe it will come to me, maybe I'll forget it.

At any rate it suggests there isn't any real propaganda campaign going on from the Gogerty-Marriott/FOA PR supertanker captained by Bruce Fisher (TM). Otherwise you'd think there would have been an effort to smite the diseased creature.